Comics Amazing Spider-Man #584 -- Character Assassination part 1 (spoilers)

[Themanofbat]

Oh for Christ' sakes... she probably has a key through her common knowledge of both roommates... she works with Vin and has come to know Pete through Harry... so it's not at all surprising to have a common friend keep a spare key should either of them lose theirs...



And while a few cops would doubt Spidey being a killer, you have to remember that many of these cops have never liked Spider-Man, and with Spidey leaving the SHRA nad basically going to the "bad side" during Civil War, in the public's persception, as well as to the authorities, things have changed for him... he is an OFFICIAL law-breaker by aiding the heroes who have not registered.. the cops were after him as early as Guggenheim's first arc when they tried to apprehend him for violating the SHRA, and was merely wanted for "questioning" into the Spider-Tracer killings...

 

[imdaly]

So, even worse- they've been plodding along with this storyline (And BTW- as one who is so well-informed about BND, it's funny to me that you seem to have forgotten that it BEGAN only a year ago, so the Spider Tracer storyline can't in and of itself have been a full year.)

The first Spider Tracer story started when BND began a year ago. BND started in #546 (January 2008), and in that issue Peter's webshooter was stolen. This led to the guy finding the spider tracers, who ended up being the first body found with the tracer planted on him.

So...yes...it's been a year.

Now. For Spidey to have been ignoring this- someone committing killings in his name- resulting in his being hunted FOR A SPECIFIC CRIME is yes- BAD WRITING. This is something any reasonable person would get on top of. Make THE PRIORITY in their life.

He HAS tried to get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately that has so far led him only to be implicated even more when he followed one of the activated tracers and found a body, only to be spotted by cops while he was standing over it.

Not all the public considers him a menace. Certainly not those whose lives he's saved, which would be quite a number.

And not all of the public believes that he is the killer.

Now you tell me- were you a cop- and bodies were suddenly appearing with spider tracers on them (And BTW- how many people actually know what a spider tracer is, and its connection to Spider-Man? He doesn't exactly leave them lying around since they cost money and he's pretty much always broke. It would seem that if Spider-Man's MO is so common that people know his esoteric equipment, then they'd be more aware of his record and that he's never been connercted to a crime. But I digress..). Such an obvious calling card for Spidey. Would you assume-

1. That despite the fact that it isn't his MO (Cops have picked up hundreds of criminals caught by him) and despite the fact that the victims died of apparent natural causes. That Spider-Man has gone on a killing spree (Although there's no way of knowing how he killed these people) but decided to implicate himself in these crimes.

2. That Spider-Man has caught hundreds of criminals and would thus have a monstrous enemies list who would love to implicate him in crimes. And considering that more than a few of these criminals have considerable scientific knowledge, they might be able to make fake tracers and even yes, come up with a way of killing that appears to be natural causes.

Which would you, as a police officer put time and man-power behind?

I would, as a police officer, put time and man-power behind investigating the killings as much as possible, and in the meantime bring in the #1 suspect (who is in one way or another tied to the killings and was seen standing over one of the tracer killings by another police officer) for questioning. Of course it only makes him more suspect and difficult to question when he's a fugitive from the law and refuses to cooperate.

Again, it's bad writing if the storyline is allowed to drag out for such a long period of time when they have 3 TIMES the number of issues to resolve stories in. Back when ASM was a once-monthly title (And well-written) something like this would be dealt with in at most six issues. Or at least the villain would be revealed and we'd have an idea of the point. This has been dragged out as YOU SAID for a year, with nothing more than vague inklings of what it's about. Then in just a single story it's supposed to be resolved? That's a huge build-up for not a big pay-off. That's- let's say it together- BAD WRITING.

But it hasn't been dragged out. It's been a small handful of murders that's happened over the course of a year, most of it being referenced to only slightly here and there. And why does the fact that the identity of the the Spider Tracer Killer is being revealed in a major 5-part story where we know nothing about how it's going to pay off yet "not a big pay-off"? It could end up being John Doe who just randomly did this, and yes I'd agree that's not a big pay-off. But hey, if it's, say Vin Gonzoles, and Peter finds out now that his roommate is a crooked cop who's going around killing people and trying to blame Spidey for it...I'd say that could lead to some pretty interesting drama.[/quote]


I guess you've never been to New York, or seen a news report about the city. I guess for that matter you don't live in the twenty-first century. Cause buddy- NO ONE LEAVES A SPARE KEY WHERE STRANGERS COULD FIND IT. No- that's not LOGICAL. Not in this town. And then- AGAIN, Peter- having secrets to keep- sure as hell wouldn't give someone he didn't want to KNOW THOSE SECRETS such easy access to his life. No. NOT LOGICAL.[/quote]

I'd also venture to guess that the same logical person who's so scared of people finding out his secret wouldn't run around with his suit on under his clothes all the time, or hang his suit in his closet.

Also, remember, he's got something going on where people are going to assume something other than Peter being Spider-Man even when faced with evidence that would normally logically make them figure out the truth. So Peter knows his secret is safe. Peter could walk around town wearing his suit with not mask and people would just wonder what the freak was doing running around in a halloween costume.

 

[Dragon]

The first Spider Tracer story started when BND began a year ago. BND started in #546 (January 2008), and in that issue Peter's webshooter was stolen. This led to the guy finding the spider tracers, who ended up being the first body found with the tracer planted on him.

So...yes...it's been a year.

The guy was killed in ASM #548, and couldn't very well be considered a Spider Tracer killing since Spidey removed the tracer from him.

He HAS tried to get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately that has so far led him only to be implicated even more when he followed one of the activated tracers and found a body, only to be spotted by cops while he was standing over it.

And not all of the public believes that he is the killer.

Again, I remind you folks that these stories ARE MADE UP. I'm saying again- logically, Spider-Man would have a major stake in clearing his name. If the WRITERS were any good, they'd have him working day and night to do this.

I would, as a police officer, put time and man-power behind investigating the killings as much as possible, and in the meantime bring in the #1 suspect (who is in one way or another tied to the killings and was seen standing over one of the tracer killings by another police officer) for questioning. Of course it only makes him more suspect and difficult to question when he's a fugitive from the law and refuses to cooperate.

You actually reminded me of something. There was a Spider-Man-Mugger. So- why wouldn't the police assume that such a person- WHO IS COMMITTING CRIMES IN SPIDER-MAN'S NAME, would likely be the Tracer killer, or involved with them? Again, Spider-Man hasn't killed anyone. So how would he be the number one suspect? The fact that ANYONE can put on a mask and costume kind of leave the number of suspects wide open.

But more than that, since Spider-Man is not that easy to catch, it might make more sense to look into actual reasons why the victims might be killed, just for laughs. Since Spider-Man didn't kill them, there's got to be another connection somewhere, right?

But it hasn't been dragged out. It's been a small handful of murders that's happened over the course of a year, most of it being referenced to only slightly here and there. And why does the fact that the identity of the the Spider Tracer Killer is being revealed in a major 5-part story where we know nothing about how it's going to pay off yet "not a big pay-off"? It could end up being John Doe who just randomly did this, and yes I'd agree that's not a big pay-off. But hey, if it's, say Vin Gonzoles, and Peter finds out now that his roommate is a crooked cop who's going around killing people and trying to blame Spidey for it...I'd say that could lead to some pretty interesting drama.

It'd be dramatic in that Spidey would live with a killer, yet never get an alert from his Spider sense. But again, the problem here is that Marvel's editorial policy sucks. Spidey being implicated in murders is a major plot point and should be given dramatic weight, not be some little sideline curiosity. Especially in light of the things that have been emphasized, such as the non-relationship-relationship with Carlie, a mayoral campaign and so forth.

I'd also venture to guess that the same logical person who's so scared of people finding out his secret wouldn't run around with his suit on under his clothes all the time, or hang his suit in his closet.

Wow. That was pretty desperate of you. Not on the same level at all as giving someone easy access to your home. You see, in the examples you mentioned, the costume is concealed. He can lock his closet, and isn't likely to be strip-searched. Someone coming and going in your house makes you a bit more vulnerable. As the scene in the book suggests, Carlie could have walked in with him unmasking.

Also, remember, he's got something going on where people are going to assume something other than Peter being Spider-Man even when faced with evidence that would normally logically make them figure out the truth. So Peter knows his secret is safe. Peter could walk around town wearing his suit with not mask and people would just wonder what the freak was doing running around in a halloween costume.

So you guys were SERIOUS about that? I rest my case on the bad-writing.

 

[Dragon]

Oh for Christ' sakes... she probably has a key through her common knowledge of both roommates... she works with Vin and has come to know Pete through Harry... so it's not at all surprising to have a common friend keep a spare key should either of them lose theirs...

Okay.. So how many co-workers and friends of friends have a key to YOUR house? This is 2008- when we here day after day of outrageous and catastrophic events caused by strangers and even family members. The fact that some of you are willing to accept dumbness is not an excuse for it. It doesn't change the fact that for Peter Parker- Lifelong citizen of New York, and secretly SPIDER-MAN- he wouldn't give ANYONE (short of someone sharing his secret) such access to his home and privacy.

And while a few cops would doubt Spidey being a killer, you have to remember that many of these cops have never liked Spider-Man, and with Spidey leaving the SHRA nad basically going to the "bad side" during Civil War, in the public's persception, as well as to the authorities, things have changed for him... he is an OFFICIAL law-breaker by aiding the heroes who have not registered.. the cops were after him as early as Guggenheim's first arc when they tried to apprehend him for violating the SHRA, and was merely wanted for "questioning" into the Spider-Tracer killings...

This storyline is the equivalent of my killing someone, placing YOUR avatar on the body and the cops immediately assuming that TMOB has to be the killer. The only reason anyone wouldn't see through something this thin is because they don't want to. Again I say- do you really think this is the best not one-but a TEAM of professional storytellers should be coming up with?

 

[imdaly]

The guy was killed in ASM #548, and couldn't very well be considered a Spider Tracer killing since Spidey removed the tracer from him.

Right. Killed in #548 and was killed by an unknown person who had placed a spider tracer on him. This was the start of it all. And even if you don't consider the plot to start until this issue, that's STILL January 2008...1 year ago.

Again, I remind you folks that these stories ARE MADE UP. I'm saying again- logically, Spider-Man would have a major stake in clearing his name. If the WRITERS were any good, they'd have him working day and night to do this.

So my point is invalid because they're fictional writings, and your solution would've been...a fictional writing?

You actually reminded me of something. There was a Spider-Man-Mugger. So- why wouldn't the police assume that such a person- WHO IS COMMITTING CRIMES IN SPIDER-MAN'S NAME, would likely be the Tracer killer, or involved with them? Again, Spider-Man hasn't killed anyone. So how would he be the number one suspect? The fact that ANYONE can put on a mask and costume kind of leave the number of suspects wide open.

POLICE HAVE SEEN SPIDER-MAN STANDING OVER ONE OF THE VICTIMS! That, combined with the fact that Spider-Man keeps running and refuses to cooperate with the investigation puts a very large eye of suspicion on him.

But more than that, since Spider-Man is not that easy to catch, it might make more sense to look into actual reasons why the victims might be killed, just for laughs. Since Spider-Man didn't kill them, there's got to be another connection somewhere, right?

Assuming that they're not assuming Spider-Man is guilty. And they ARE looking into it!

It'd be dramatic in that Spidey would live with a killer, yet never get an alert from his Spider sense. But again, the problem here is that Marvel's editorial policy sucks. Spidey being implicated in murders is a major plot point and should be given dramatic weight, not be some little sideline curiosity. Especially in light of the things that have been emphasized, such as the non-relationship-relationship with Carlie, a mayoral campaign and so forth.

Assuming that Vin really is the killer, he has not yet posed a threat to Peter directly, so there's no reason yet for his spider sense to be triggered.

Wow. That was pretty desperate of you. Not on the same level at all as giving someone easy access to your home. You see, in the examples you mentioned, the costume is concealed. He can lock his closet, and isn't likely to be strip-searched. Someone coming and going in your house makes you a bit more vulnerable. As the scene in the book suggests, Carlie could have walked in with him unmasking.

Not without setting off his Spider Sense first. Y'know, like it must've in this week's issue.

So you guys were SERIOUS about that? I rest my case on the bad-writing.

Yes, because it's fair to call "bad writing!" before you know the story behind it.

 

[imdaly]

This storyline is the equivalent of my killing someone, placing YOUR avatar on the body and the cops immediately assuming that TMOB has to be the killer. The only reason anyone wouldn't see through something this thin is because they don't want to. Again I say- do you really think this is the best not one-but a TEAM of professional storytellers should be coming up with?

Your analogy would work if you added to it that TMOB was a known fugitive from the law, refused to cooperate with the police, and was spotted standing over the body that had his avatar on it.

 

[bryanss3]

Again, I remind you folks that these stories ARE MADE UP. I'm saying again- logically, Spider-Man would have a major stake in clearing his name. If the WRITERS were any good, they'd have him working day and night to do this.

The writers are good and its called a story line. Spider-man has had his name thrown just about everywhere and he knows the public doesn't care what he has to say. plus he has been looking its just a fact that spider-man can not hunt down a person who randomly places spider-tracers on dead bodies sorry thats not how his powers work are you new? why are you reading it if you think the writers are bad?

Wow. That was pretty desperate of you. Not on the same level at all as giving someone easy access to your home. You see, in the examples you mentioned, the costume is concealed. He can lock his closet, and isn't likely to be strip-searched. Someone coming and going in your house makes you a bit more vulnerable. As the scene in the book suggests, Carlie could have walked in with him unmasking.

He does have a Spider-Sense which keeps people from sneaking up on him.

 

[Dragon]

Right. Killed in #548 and was killed by an unknown person who had placed a spider tracer on him. This was the start of it all. And even if you don't consider the plot to start until this issue, that's STILL January 2008...1 year ago.

A tracer which Spider-Man removed, thus not a spider-tracer killing.

So my point is invalid because they're fictional writings, and your solution would've been...a fictional writing?

The debate here isn't if it's fictional writing. It's GOOD fictional writing versus BAD fictional writing.

POLICE HAVE SEEN SPIDER-MAN STANDING OVER ONE OF THE VICTIMS! That, combined with the fact that Spider-Man keeps running and refuses to cooperate with the investigation puts a very large eye of suspicion on him.

ONE VICTIM? So the mugger was the only victim Spidey was caught standing over? The guy who he- AGAIN- removed the tracer from? So- what's Spidey's actual connection to the tracer killings again?

And correct. Spidey keeps running and doing nothing to clear himself. Which is my point.

Assuming that they're not assuming Spider-Man is guilty. And they ARE looking into it!

Even if they are assuming Spider-Man is guilty- they still have to prove he did it. Standing over a dead body isn't proof you killed them otherwise lots of distraught family members, neighbors, freinds and innocent bystanders would be locked up. And how do they prove it? By investigating the crimes and seeing what connection the victims have- be it to Spider-Man or whoever else.

Assuming that Vin really is the killer, he has not yet posed a threat to Peter directly, so there's no reason yet for his spider sense to be triggered.

Oh come now. Do we really need to run down the list since ASM #1 of times his spider sense has been triggered without there being a threat to him?

Not without setting off his Spider Sense first. Y'know, like it must've in this week's issue.

That doesn't mean she can't walk in on him. I doubt he's going to punch her out or keep running for the bathroom. I think Pete would be more likely to simply avoid the situation altogether, BY NOT GIVING HER A KEY. How about you?

Yes, because it's fair to call "bad writing!" before you know the story behind it.

Hope springs eternal for you I guess. But if we go by track records, then hope is slim.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

OK my two cents on this.

1) When a serial killer is on the loose and you have one clue, you're going to exhuast every posibility that clue gives you. The idea that Spidey is being framed is probably being considered, but you can't just let him roam free. Especially with The DB "reporting" on it. Not to mention that he has been seen standing over TWO victims.

2) As for Spidey helping the police all these years. How about all the times he's been a fugitive from the law in those years? Also who is Spider-Man? He's a guy in a suit. So how do they know it's even the same guy. Maybe the real Spider-Man was killed an this guy is new?

3) Maybe Peter didn't give Carlie his key? Maybe it was Vin? Maybe he trusts her enough he doesn't think she'll go through his drawers. Plus, he does have a room-mate, who has total axcess to his apartment and room.

 

[Dragon]

Your analogy would work if you added to it that TMOB was a known fugitive from the law, refused to cooperate with the police, and was spotted standing over the body that had his avatar on it.

He ist:

But no, as I said above, none of that is probable cause. Evidence- things like DNA, cause of death, a murder weapon. Time of death. MOTIVE. Those are reasons to assume someone's guilt or innocence. Not simply standing over someone and not wanting to be shot.

And one more thing to think about. He's F-ING SPIDER-MAN. If he were indeed a KILLER, crazy-enough to implicate himself in said killings, he'd also likely not RUN from the cops, but beat them to a pulp. And be- as you love to point out, standing over their dead bodies.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

He ist:

But no, as I said above, none of that is probable cause. Evidence- things like DNA, cause of death, a murder weapon. Time of death. MOTIVE. Those are reasons to assume someone's guilt or innocence. Not simply standing over someone and not wanting to be shot.

And one more thing to think about. He's F-ING SPIDER-MAN. If he were indeed a KILLER, crazy-enough to implicate himself in said killings, he'd also likely not RUN from the cops, but beat them to a pulp. And be- as you love to point out, standing over their dead bodies.

Yes, because that's what EVERY villain in the Marvel Universe does; beats the cops to a pulp and then stands over their dead bodies waiting for The Avengers, or whoever, to come kick their ass.


The only time i've EVER seen a villain do something REMOTELY like that, was the Absorbing Man in Thor #236, after he absorbed Mjolner's energy...

 

[Dragon]

Yes, because that's what EVERY villain in the Marvel Universe does; beats the cops to a pulp and then stands over their dead bodies waiting for The Avengers, or whoever, to come kick their ass.


The only time i've EVER seen a villain do something REMOTELY like that, was the Absorbing Man in Thor #236, after he absorbed Mjolner's energy...

I'm trying to gauge if you're serious or not, Cap. Because if you are, I think you missed a few issues.

Basically every major villain when cornered by the cops fights past them. Ock has done it, Electro, the Scorpion, Sandman, Rhino, you name 'em. No not necessarily killing them, since you want to take me literally, but then they aren't "serial killers" (This term is thrown aournd too often these days. The Tracer-killer is not a serial killer) as Spidey is accused of being. And I didn't say anything about waiting for The Avengers. I only mentioned the "standing over" thing as a joke as Imdaly keeps reiterating that point.

'kay???

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I'm trying to gauge if you're serious or not, Cap. Because if you are, I think you missed a few issues.

Basically every major villain when cornered by the cops fights past them. Ock has done it, Electro, the Scorpion, Sandman, Rhino, you name 'em. No not necessarily killing them, since you want to take me literally, but then they aren't "serial killers" (This term is thrown aournd too often these days. The Tracer-killer is not a serial killer) as Spidey is accused of being. And I didn't say anything about waiting for The Avengers. I only mentioned the "standing over" thing as a joke as Imdaly keeps reiterating that point.

'kay???

'kay.

 

[stillanerd]

With regards to Dragon's points about the Spider-Tracer Killings, I believe the issues he raises about them are absolutely valid. Think about it: there's some guy out there presumably killing people and leaving behind incriminating evidence which suggests that you are responsible for these deaths. Wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this to prove your innocence? Oh, that's right, he asked the Bookie to help him look into the matter, but again, you would think Spidey would want to be more proactive than he has been in solving this when he's being accused as a serial killer.

And has been pointed out, we've had over 36 issues--about the equivalent of three years worth of comics in a years time--and this subplot has been barely touched upon save for a few issues that involved more than a summary at the beginning of each issue. And there's only about three issues that I can think of in which Spidey took an active role in attempting to get to the bottom of who the Spider-Tracer Killer is. Three out of 36. And people wonder why some readers are complaining about the pacing of the subplots?

BTW, Dragon, there's actually been TWO victims he's was seen standing over. One was the Spider-Mugger, in which of course he took the tracer away since it was his own, although it's debatable whether or not that guy can be considered a victim; and the other was a woman found in a dumpster in issue #581. There, the real Spider Tracer Killer activated it (thus confirming that the tracers were in fact genuine) and that Spidey was led to it, only realizing too late that he was being set up when a cop had showed up on the scene after responding to an anonymous 9-1-1 call. And again, Spidey ran away. Course, the cops have pretty much acted dumb this whole time too. After all, in issue #550, Spider-Man was at the investigative detective's office where he learned about the murders (which started three months ago right around the time he temporarily retired from being Spider-Man) and then the SWAT team showed up to arrest him. So, apparently, no one is considering any other suspects. Great police work, huh?

And about Carlie having a spare key. Carlie is also good friends with Vin Gonzales and, technically, it was his apartment before Peter moved in and became his roommate. It's not hard to imagine that Vin himself gave her a spare key sometime ago, considering how he secretly has a crush on Carlie in the first place.

 

[Themanofbat]

Okay.. So how many co-workers and friends of friends have a key to YOUR house? This is 2008- when we here day after day of outrageous and catastrophic events caused by strangers and even family members. The fact that some of you are willing to accept dumbness is not an excuse for it. It doesn't change the fact that for Peter Parker- Lifelong citizen of New York, and secretly SPIDER-MAN- he wouldn't give ANYONE (short of someone sharing his secret) such access to his home and privacy.

** checks date when Dragie wrote the aforementioned post ** t: t: t:

My parents have a key to my house as well as a good friend of mine... but then again, I live in the boonies when compared to Manhatten.

And like stillanerd said, she was friends with Vin long before Peter, so it's possible that she had access to the key to Vin's apartment long before Peter was involved.

 

[Themanofbat]

This storyline is the equivalent of my killing someone, placing YOUR avatar on the body and the cops immediately assuming that TMOB has to be the killer. The only reason anyone wouldn't see through something this thin is because they don't want to. Again I say- do you really think this is the best not one-but a TEAM of professional storytellers should be coming up with?

I think that some cops are assuming that Spider-Man is responsible because...

1) he's currently in violation of a federal law and a wanted fugitive.

2) some younger cops have "trust" issues with heroes in general, so they'd just assume the worst in a vigilante, especially one who was on the "good guy side" and then turned his back on them to support the "bad guys"

3) in conjunction with the second point, I don't believe that all cops think Spidey is the killer, I think that the older ones on the beat "know" that he is a hero and has saved many lives, including their own, on many occasions in the past. However, the public is fearful of the killer, Spidey's the "obvious" target (remember that he just recently turned his back on a federal law of the USA which all of these fearful law-abiding citizens respect (or try to)), and Peter has tried to find out more information about the killer, but really has nothing to go on, and while doing so, he has other situations to deal with... we've seen this kind of storytelling throughout the years in the Spidey books... so while a few cops may think he is the killer, I would say that many don't, and they must have lab people working the victims for clues to the identity of the killer (and yes, they will try to link it with Spider-Man, it's part of their jobs seeing as he is a suspect), and the Spider-Tracer killings is also a "hot topic" in the mayoral race; hence why the it's garnishing more "public opinion", and even if the cops don't think he is... if the public thinks so, then there will be more "heat" for the cops to bring Spidey in...

It all makes sense to me...

 

[imdaly]

ONE VICTIM? So the mugger was the only victim Spidey was caught standing over? The guy who he- AGAIN- removed the tracer from? So- what's Spidey's actual connection to the tracer killings again?

As someone said, there were TWO victims he was found standing over.

Even if they are assuming Spider-Man is guilty- they still have to prove he did it. Standing over a dead body isn't proof you killed them otherwise lots of distraught family members, neighbors, freinds and innocent bystanders would be locked up. And how do they prove it? By investigating the crimes and seeing what connection the victims have- be it to Spider-Man or whoever else.

And that's why they call him a "suspect". Because they haven't proved it yet. He's suspect #1 because of all the evidence they've found so far and the fact that he refuses to help out the case. I mean, if YOU were a cop and you keep seeing the prime suspect of a case run away from you instead of helping to clear their name...wouldn't YOU be even more suspicious??



And no, not everybody is buying the set-up. Read the interlude to issue #577.

 

[Dragon]

** checks date when Dragie wrote the aforementioned post ** t: t: t:

My parents have a key to my house as well as a good friend of mine... but then again, I live in the boonies when compared to Manhatten.

And like stillanerd said, she was friends with Vin long before Peter, so it's possible that she had access to the key to Vin's apartment long before Peter was involved.

Exactly what I'm saying, man. YOUR PARENTS and a GOOD FRIEND. Someone you know and trust. My point regarding Peter is that he trusts no one, since he won't share his secret with them.

Now, thanks to stillanerd's clarification regarding Vin and Carlie's relationship, I'll put it this way: It's certainly possible that she might have a key, but not probable. Yes, Vin might offer a girl he has a thing for a key to his place. But unless the girl shares his feelings, she'd not likely accept, since she'd think that that key came with strings attached. And a guy would seem overly eager and kinda desperate to be offering a key to someone he hasn't even dated. I don't know much about Vin's character, and maybe he is that. Maybe Carlie is weird enough to accept such an offer. I dunno.

But this doesn't change my feelings that this isn't very good writing. Especially since it would be easy enough to get Carlie into the apartment without such a stretch of plausibility. Carlie could have simply said she changed her mind about a date and wanted to have dinner at Pete's place. This could have created a reasonable situation, drama (Carlie trying to sneak around with Peter watchng her, Peter not wanting her to learn to much) and generate relationship sparks, both good and bad (Good in upping their attraction, bad by displaying the mistrust on both of their parts).

I'm saying again, it isn't hard to make these stories work if a little thought is put into it.

 

[Dragon]

OK my two cents on this.

1) When a serial killer is on the loose and you have one clue, you're going to exhuast every posibility that clue gives you. The idea that Spidey is being framed is probably being considered, but you can't just let him roam free. Especially with The DB "reporting" on it. Not to mention that he has been seen standing over TWO victims.

You guys are stuck on that "Standing over" thng.

Okay let's try it this way-

You're a cop. You want to solve these murders. You come across Spider-Man "standing over the victim's body" Do you:

A. Threaten this super strong, super fast guy who can dodge bullets?

or

B. Calmly approach him asking him to explain his side, even if it's merely to get him to lower his guard to make him easier to capture?

And they have more than ONE CLUE. They have the victim. They have their history. Who might want them dead, be it Spider-Man or whoever else. It's called investigation, and that's what cops are supposed to do.

2) As for Spidey helping the police all these years. How about all the times he's been a fugitive from the law in those years? Also who is Spider-Man? He's a guy in a suit. So how do they know it's even the same guy. Maybe the real Spider-Man was killed an this guy is new?

You play the averages. How much has he helped vs. been accused of something (Which he ultimately was cleared of). My point is that the writing needs to move past cliches that were burnt out twenty years ago.

3) Maybe Peter didn't give Carlie his key? Maybe it was Vin? Maybe he trusts her enough he doesn't think she'll go through his drawers. Plus, he does have a room-mate, who has total axcess to his apartment and room.

Well, I've responded to this above, but the thing is, that this is a plot point that should have been established. If she and Vin have that type of relationship, before she just happens to go skipping through Peter's door. That's good writing.

 

[Dragon]

With regards to Dragon's points about the Spider-Tracer Killings, I believe the issues he raises about them are absolutely valid. Think about it: there's some guy out there presumably killing people and leaving behind incriminating evidence which suggests that you are responsible for these deaths. Wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this to prove your innocence? Oh, that's right, he asked the Bookie to help him look into the matter, but again, you would think Spidey would want to be more proactive than he has been in solving this when he's being accused as a serial killer.

And has been pointed out, we've had over 36 issues--about the equivalent of three years worth of comics in a years time--and this subplot has been barely touched upon save for a few issues that involved more than a summary at the beginning of each issue. And there's only about three issues that I can think of in which Spidey took an active role in attempting to get to the bottom of who the Spider-Tracer Killer is. Three out of 36. And people wonder why some readers are complaining about the pacing of the subplots?

BTW, Dragon, there's actually been TWO victims he's was seen standing over. One was the Spider-Mugger, in which of course he took the tracer away since it was his own, although it's debatable whether or not that guy can be considered a victim; and the other was a woman found in a dumpster in issue #581. There, the real Spider Tracer Killer activated it (thus confirming that the tracers were in fact genuine) and that Spidey was led to it, only realizing too late that he was being set up when a cop had showed up on the scene after responding to an anonymous 9-1-1 call. And again, Spidey ran away. Course, the cops have pretty much acted dumb this whole time too. After all, in issue #550, Spider-Man was at the investigative detective's office where he learned about the murders (which started three months ago right around the time he temporarily retired from being Spider-Man) and then the SWAT team showed up to arrest him. So, apparently, no one is considering any other suspects. Great police work, huh?

And about Carlie having a spare key. Carlie is also good friends with Vin Gonzales and, technically, it was his apartment before Peter moved in and became his roommate. It's not hard to imagine that Vin himself gave her a spare key sometime ago, considering how he secretly has a crush on Carlie in the first place.

Thanks for the additional info, stillanerd. The second victim raises alot of new problems in the storyline. The issues of proximity. Spidey doesn't sense the tracers over an infinite distance. So he'd have to get within range, and this would take time, by comparison to when the 911 call is placed. Thus there's the issue of time of death. When was the victim killed by comparison to when Spidey is found "standing over the body"t:

As you say, the police conduct in this stroyline is pretty silly. And I'm saying over and over, that it doesn't have to be. That's my one real complaint here. That these stories do not have to be structured on the Roger Ebert coined phrase: "The Idiot Plot". We can have a story where Spidey is reasonably suspected of murder, by a villain that plans out a clever frame-job, and investigated by cops who are actually doing a good job and wind up suspecting Spider-Man. None of this "He was standing over the body" that was old in the 1940's. Hell even Hitchcock in North by Northwest at least had Cary Grant holding the murder weapon, and that was 1959

 

[Dragon]

As someone said, there were TWO victims he was found standing over.

somebody call the police! (Oh.. I guess they did..)t:

And that's why they call him a "suspect". Because they haven't proved it yet. He's suspect #1 because of all the evidence they've found so far and the fact that he refuses to help out the case. I mean, if YOU were a cop and you keep seeing the prime suspect of a case run away from you instead of helping to clear their name...wouldn't YOU be even more suspicious??

All of WHAT evidence? Spider-Man "standing over the body" and a piece of his paraphernalia on the vicitm (Which I'm still not clear why the cops would know about it and what it does). No cause of death. No time of death. No motive. All you really have is that someone Spider-Man was tailing ended up dead. Big surprise, since folks Spidey tends to tail often live dangerous llives. Pretty thin to again, waste man-power and endanger the police hastling someone as elusive and dangerous as Spider-Man.

And no, not everybody is buying the set-up. Read the interlude to issue #577.

Well, this discussion has at least prompted me to read-up on this storyline just to get a more clear perspective on why it sucks

 

[Dragon]

I think that some cops are assuming that Spider-Man is responsible because...

1) he's currently in violation of a federal law and a wanted fugitive.

2) some younger cops have "trust" issues with heroes in general, so they'd just assume the worst in a vigilante, especially one who was on the "good guy side" and then turned his back on them to support the "bad guys"

3) in conjunction with the second point, I don't believe that all cops think Spidey is the killer, I think that the older ones on the beat "know" that he is a hero and has saved many lives, including their own, on many occasions in the past. However, the public is fearful of the killer, Spidey's the "obvious" target (remember that he just recently turned his back on a federal law of the USA which all of these fearful law-abiding citizens respect (or try to)), and Peter has tried to find out more information about the killer, but really has nothing to go on, and while doing so, he has other situations to deal with... we've seen this kind of storytelling throughout the years in the Spidey books... so while a few cops may think he is the killer, I would say that many don't, and they must have lab people working the victims for clues to the identity of the killer (and yes, they will try to link it with Spider-Man, it's part of their jobs seeing as he is a suspect), and the Spider-Tracer killings is also a "hot topic" in the mayoral race; hence why the it's garnishing more "public opinion", and even if the cops don't think he is... if the public thinks so, then there will be more "heat" for the cops to bring Spidey in...

It all makes sense to me...

I'm not going to say that those aren't valid reasons for the cops suspecting Spidey. And I'm already aware of all of those conceptions.

But as I said in my response to stillanerd, and as I've been stressing during this entire discussion (And on the discussion about Harry's resurrection) all of this is OLD. Spidey was suspected of murder more than 30 years ago for the same reasons (Minus the SHRA of course). It's all been done. Done to death.

BRAND NEW DAY, MAN!!! Not SAME OLD SHT.

Again- it's certainly possible for this story to be told with new angles, new approaches. Good characterization, and without folks like me being turned-off by the dumbness and implausibilities at every turn.

Like I've said- don't make it another obvious frame-up. Make it actuallly possible that Spidey is somehow involved in these deaths. Make him really need to stop the killings for the sake of his own sanity and emotional well-being. Something NEW.

 

[stillanerd]

Thanks for the additional info, stillanerd. The second victim raises alot of new problems in the storyline. The issues of proximity. Spidey doesn't sense the tracers over an infinite distance. So he'd have to get within range, and this would take time, by comparison to when the 911 call is placed. Thus there's the issue of time of death. When was the victim killed by comparison to when Spidey is found "standing over the body"t:

It's likely that the killer killed the person earlier, then dumped the body, turned on the tracer, and then made the call. After all, he sees Spider-Man swinging over head while this is going on. Of course, that opens up a whole new question as to how the killer would know Spidey would show up that that exact moment where he's dumping the body, not to mention that a squad car will be approaching along that very street, and somehow slip away without being seen by both Spidey and the cop. Talk about time compression.

As you say, the police conduct in this stroyline is pretty silly. And I'm saying over and over, that it doesn't have to be. That's my one real complaint here. That these stories do not have to be structured on the Roger Ebert coined phrase: "The Idiot Plot". We can have a story where Spidey is reasonably suspected of murder, by a villain that plans out a clever frame-job, and investigated by cops who are actually doing a good job and wind up suspecting Spider-Man. None of this "He was standing over the body" that was old in the 1940's. Hell even Hitchcock in North by Northwest at least had Cary Grant holding the murder weapon, and that was 1959

And as I said before, apparently, according to the Bookie in one issue, all of the victims (save for some) were not actually murdered but died of natural causes. So how the hell does the NYPD crime scene investigative unit NOT notice this and some low-life petty thug who makes bets on superhero and supervillain fights, does? It's one of the reasons why I initally thought Carlie Cooper was the Spider Tracer Killer as well as being Menace, because there's no way someone as skilled in forensics like she supposedly is--not to mention she was the one who examined one of the bodies--would make a mistake like that unless she was altering autopsy records. But since she apparently isn't the Spider-Tracer Killer (although I still happen to think she's Menace) what does that say?

 

[Dragon]

It's likely that the killer killed the person earlier, then dumped the body, turned on the tracer, and then made the call. After all, he sees Spider-Man swinging over head while this is going on. Of course, that opens up a whole new question as to how the killer would know Spidey would show up that that exact moment where he's dumping the body, not to mention that a squad car will be approaching along that very street, and somehow slip away without being seen by both Spidey and the cop. Talk about time compression.

Right. This scenario creates so many questions of both plausibility and structure. How does the killer plan the timing of the murder and dumping with something as unpredictable as when Spider-Man will swing by? He could have been on the other end of the Universe, based on his lifestyle. And then on top of that making a timely enough call to the police so that Spidey will still be standing around. And again, for what? "Spidey standing over the victim", which is again, not convincing evidence of a crime. And then when you factor in disparities between the victim's time of death to time of discovery, you have no real case against Spidey.

And as I said before, apparently, according to the Bookie in one issue, all of the victims (save for some) were not actually murdered but died of natural causes. So how the hell does the NYPD crime scene investigative unit NOT notice this and some low-life petty thug who makes bets on superhero and supervillain fights, does? It's one of the reasons why I initally thought Carlie Cooper was the Spider Tracer Killer as well as being Menace, because there's no way someone as skilled in forensics like she supposedly is--not to mention she was the one who examined one of the bodies--would make a mistake like that unless she was altering autopsy records. But since she apparently isn't the Spider-Tracer Killer (although I still happen to think she's Menace) what does that say?

You make one mistake, stillanerd.. You actually expect a Marvel storyline to tie all the plot-strings together and make perfect sense in the end. Shame on you

 

[Dark Spidey]

I thought it was a decent issue... good start to a potentially good storyline, and really awesome artwork...

JrJr's work on this issue looked less rushed than in NWTD...

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought Romita's work in "New Ways To Die" was vastly inferior to his previous stuff in Amazing. Although i've always prefered his pencils when inked by Scott Hanna anyways. For example if you compare the art in NWTD to say, "Coming Home" and the quality is worlds apart.

As for the story, the only thing I didn't get was the whole politics behind the Spider-tracer killer. I mean, why are they saying that Spidey being caught and captured will swing the vote for Hollister? It was Crowne that took up the heavy stance against Spidey. So surely if he's caught, wouldn't Crowne benifit more than Hollister??