Comics Are any of you pissed at JMS?

[ragingdemon155]

They were all established and so on before there deaths.

Gwen was established because of her death. When people are asked "what do they remember as "gwens moment"", her death is ALWAYS the answer. She never did anything of importence except "die".

 

[Herr Logan]

Don't make me waste my time pulling out my Essential collections so I can tell you the exact issue in which Gwen first appeared. She was established before her death as well. Using inaccurate and sloppy language does not make a derisive and ignorant argument stronger, it merely proves how invalid it is without forcing the reader to think about it too much before coming to that conclusion.

 

[six11]

They were all established and so on before there deaths.

Gwen was established because of her death. When people are asked "what do they remember as "gwens moment"", her death is ALWAYS the answer. She never did anything of importence except "die".

that's solely your opionin, and I do not agree with it.

maybe you need to read more ASM books.

why was her death so important? would it have been as important if lets say... JJJ's son, Col. Jameson Died? i think not. what if Ned Leeds Died OH OOPS HE DID AND NO ONE CARES. SO why the fuss about Gwen dying? BECAUSE she was a great character and people cared and SHE was an important character in spidey history. not even Harry Osborns death rates 1/10000000th as high as Gwens death. want to take another guess WHY?

i think i just proved how important gwen as as a character in the ASM title and continued to be so even after her death.

 

[LarryLegend]

I think that JMS has shown his ego clearly. First he decides to play with Spider-Man's origin with his totemistic storylines. Now he's completly rewritten the events of ASM 121/122 while also casting a dark clound over ASM 31-120. To me his determined to take 40 years of storylines and flush them down the toilet to create his new version of Spider-Man.

 

[Herr Logan]

If they ever put him on Wolverine's book, there'd be tons and tons of origin, romance and enemy-harms-lover stories for him to mess with. Frankly, I'd have been happier if they through him on Wolverine so he could mess around there, since Wolverine has been written pretty poorly in recent years. Instead, Millar is showing off his talent on both a Spider-Man book and "Wolverine." Too bad they couldn't give him the two he's working on and Amazing at the same time.

 

[spideylover89]

that's solely your opionin, and I do not agree with it.

maybe you need to read more ASM books.

why was her death so important? would it have been as important if lets say... JJJ's son, Col. Jameson Died? i think not. what if Ned Leeds Died OH OOPS HE DID AND NO ONE CARES. SO why the fuss about Gwen dying? BECAUSE she was a great character and people cared and SHE was an important character in spidey history. not even Harry Osborns death rates 1/10000000th as high as Gwens death. want to take another guess WHY?

i think i just proved how important gwen as as a character in the ASM title and continued to be so even after her death.

I think the main reason Gwen's death was such an impact is because she died because spidey failed to save the girl he loved. Gwen was his big failure. It wasn't like Uncle Ben where he wasn't there to save Ben, spidey was there when Gwen died and it was his fault. She was killed because Gobby wanted to torture spidey. She died because of spidey. That is why her death made such an impact. Sure people where upset because spidey's love died, but what really mad it stick was the fact that it finally showed spidey was not invincible.

Now concerning sins past, I don't really know how it will be remembered. It could very well turn into a classic or a total waiste. There is no way to tell...unless you're psychic
I'm willing to wait til this is over because to me the most important part is the ending. The ending could make or break the story. If JMS cops out for the ending, forget it. But there is still a chance he will come through.

 

[Cyclops]

Wow. Leave it to this kind of thing to make people on message boards feel self-important.

Not professional enough to get paid? Sheesh. Sounds like something... oh... someone who's proven themselves a better writer could afford to say, not some random fan on the internet. To say you like or dislike someone's work is one thing, but to say they don't even deserve to be paid for the work they do? Wow. How high is that horse you're riding? Or to criticize someone's current work that you've admitted to not reading for months... Jeezoman... that's like criticizing a novel you've never read just because you don't care for their past work.

And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here. There is no way to conclusively prove any of this stuff. I've done my research, I've looked at the back issues, and the most memorable thing Gwen ever did was die. How does this crap on her memory when what she's really remembered for is getting knocked off of a bridge? I'm sorry, I don't see it. I just don't see it. Was she a great character? If she was, I didn't really see too much of it, she seemed more or less solely crafted to complement Peter, not to be a character in and of herself. And I can recall Conway's words on the matter...
"She was always such a stiff. So I made her one for real!" Was it the best decision? Perhaps not. But I dare you, ask any Spider-Man fan who knows the history to tell you the first story that comes to mind when you say the words "Gwen Stacy". I doubt they'll tell you "The story where Peter bought a motorcycle and first fought The Rhino".

 

[Auntie May]

A typical Spidey fan is supposed to be mad right now. Supposedly the joy is coming. It just better be good, otherwise some people will remain pissed at JMS and might drop the book.

 

[Herr Logan]

The story in which Peter Parker got his new bike and first fought the Rhino featured Mary Jane Watson far more prominently than Gwen, if Gwen featured at all (I'm too tired to check right this second), as it was her first time meeting Peter and they both rode to the scene of the Rhino's rampage on his bike. Keep up that research.

 

[Auntie May]

Here are some more people not too happy with JMS right now

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/109683814269203.htm

 

[masteryoda]

The story in which Peter Parker got his new bike and first fought the Rhino featured Mary Jane Watson far more prominently than Gwen, if Gwen featured at all (I'm too tired to check right this second), as it was her first time meeting Peter and they both rode to the scene of the Rhino's rampage on his bike. Keep up that research.

Wow, you sure showed him.

 

[six11]

i just went back and re-read #512. i dunno. i was looking for holes in the book where JMS could pull the wool off our eyes and say "FOOLED YA!!" but not really seeing any... which is unfortunate.

from the letter in #510, the back has a portion of writing that says "I was pregnant" which well i guess it couldn't have been someone else that was pregnant with the babies lol... which was one way to fix the story line, some kinda of surrogate mother thing, but whoosh out the window with that idea.

and when gwen, in #512 says, "i didn't intend for it to happen,~~~ i just couldn't walk away" i dunno it doesnt say um what uMMM happened. or ya.. or.. ya.

oh ya maybe he was so strong and magnetic that uMM he convinced her to carry some embryos for him to term... urm.. ya. and she agreed.. on account of his strength and magnetism...

sigh.

 

[Dragon]

And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here. There is no way to conclusively prove any of this stuff. I've done my research, I've looked at the back issues, and the most memorable thing Gwen ever did was die. How does this crap on her memory when what she's really remembered for is getting knocked off of a bridge? I'm sorry, I don't see it. I just don't see it. Was she a great character? If she was, I didn't really see too much of it, she seemed more or less solely crafted to complement Peter, not to be a character in and of herself. And I can recall Conway's words on the matter...
"She was always such a stiff. So I made her one for real!" Was it the best decision? Perhaps not. But I dare you, ask any Spider-Man fan who knows the history to tell you the first story that comes to mind when you say the words "Gwen Stacy". I doubt they'll tell you "The story where Peter bought a motorcycle and first fought The Rhino".

What's hilarious is that you, like gildea write a response where you claim to not generalize and back your point up by more generalization. You're still using the "ask any Spidey fan" thing.

I don't know the point at which you started reading the books, but have you considered that Gwen's death is her biggest moment to you because it's the first thing you knew about her? If you started following the comics when Gwen was nothing more than a sad, distant memory mentioned once every 20 issues or so, she might not be very important.

But forgetting that, it was her importance to Peter that matters most. In the comics, Gwen was established as Peter's TRUE love. Meaning she didn't screw with and have kids by other men for God's sake. The fans who are bothered by these new developments feel they "crap all over her memory".

What did Gwen do in the comics? She loved Peter. She made him see that there was more to his world than misery. That's all that MJ does now. And that's enough. Many of us are fond of that aspect of the character. These developments are telling us that Gwen didn't love him. And worse, that she didn't even know what love is.

 

[Cyclops]

I'm still using it because it's viable. Dying is the most important thing she ever did. And it is what she will be remembered for. Perhaps to you being a true love character is enough, but that's such a flat dimension to occupy, gives little room for depth of character. She was Peter's girlfriend and very little else, if anything at all. You said that yourself up there. What did she do? She loved Peter. She loved him and she died. Not alot of room for depth. Now, there's another aspect. She loved Peter, she died, and she made an error in judgement.

She was Pete's "true love" because she was designed with that intent purpose in mind. This mistake she's committed here just adds another dimension to her character. Instead of Peter's perfect complement, she's now the girl he fell in love with, but with a flaw. Not to mention that we still don't know the whole story. She felt irresistibly magnetized to him? Is it perhaps possible, just maybe, that she had been manipulated in some way? I mean, perish forbid, Norman Osborn, master manipulator not manipulate Gwen, true love of his arch enemy, to betray him and further Osborn's goals at the same time... no, that'd make it too hard to jump to rash conclusions before the story's over.

Yeah, she kinda, oh... died before I was born, so no, I couldn't have been introduced to her before she was killed. And yeah, that'll probably make you feel more important than me in the long run, so good for you.

 

[shinlyle]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.

Gwen, while she was a wholesome little woman, never really did much. Even Stan Lee said that she was invented to be Peter's perfect love, but she just wasn't a very interesting character to write. When MJ came along, people instantly fell in love with her because she was the wild, rambunctious vixen that guys sought after.

Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?

Am I mad at JMS? Oh yeah. I really don't like what he's done to Gwen, but I'll accept it and try to enjoy the rest of the story. Besides, it's not over yet, and we don't know how it's going to end. I'm willing to give JMS the benefit of the doubt. He's given us a good enough run for me to wait it out on this one. He did kind of save the Spidey titles, after all.

I'm not happy, but I'll give the man his due.

 

[Dragon]

I'm still using it because it's viable. Dying is the most important thing she ever did. And it is what she will be remembered for. Perhaps to you being a true love character is enough, but that's such a flat dimension to occupy, gives little room for depth of character. She was Peter's girlfriend and very little else, if anything at all. You said that yourself up there. What did she do? She loved Peter. She loved him and she died. Not alot of room for depth. Now, there's another aspect. She loved Peter, she died, and she made an error in judgement.

First, dying isn't something she did. It's something that was done to her. Second, if you choose to approach things from that angle, what has Mary Jane or Aunt May done of any importance? MJ has "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot" and marrying Peter. And this is with an additional 30 years in the books. What has Flash done? Aside from being the Goblin's son and becoming the Goblin himself, what has Harry done? Liz? They're all just supporting characters, reacting to what goes on in Peter's life.

And yes, while Gwen could've stood some fleshing out, it doesn't mean that ANY and every possible behavior should now apply to her. That she's fair game for any type of error in judgement. In reading ASMs #31-121 there are no implications that Gwen would engage in the behavior alluded to in ASM #512. There are however actions on her part that say she wouldn't have done this.

She was Pete's "true love" because she was designed with that intent purpose in mind. This mistake she's committed here just adds another dimension to her character. Instead of Peter's perfect complement, she's now the girl he fell in love with, but with a flaw. Not to mention that we still don't know the whole story. She felt irresistibly magnetized to him? Is it perhaps possible, just maybe, that she had been manipulated in some way? I mean, perish forbid, Norman Osborn, master manipulator not manipulate Gwen, true love of his arch enemy, to betray him and further Osborn's goals at the same time... no, that'd make it too hard to jump to rash conclusions before the story's over.

Yeah, it adds a dimension to her character. One that removes the possibility of her being the woman Peter truly loved. There's a reason why Peter for example doesn't love Black Cat. There's a reason why Peter for a long time wasn't interested in Mary Jane. If you can relegate having sex with another man and bearing his children "an error in judgment" then I guess the Goblin murdering her was merely a tragic accident as well. There are some errors in judgement that you can't recover from. And this is why I'm saying having children with Osborn tarnishes her memory.

And, even from the perspective of Gwen dying, it also takes away from that story. The great tragedy of Gwen's death was that there was no reason for her die other than being in love with Peter. Now with all of these contrived plot points all of that is removed. Gwen was now killed because of her own decisions. And while this doesn't make her murder any more justified, it removes the impact of her death from Peter.

And I've been saying all along that the story isn't over yet and can (and MUST) turn out differently from what we're seeing. But right now we're speaking of the events as shown and how we feel about them.

Yeah, she kinda, oh... died before I was born, so no, I couldn't have been introduced to her before she was killed. And yeah, that'll probably make you feel more important than me in the long run, so good for you.

It's responses like that that show how childish you are about all of this and thus why you rely on generalizations to make your case. I've been trying to get across to you that your take on this is merely your opinion. I've never tried to make it as though it weren't valid, or that my opinion is more important that yours. The premise of your argument has been that because YOU don't see any value in Gwen's character, that NO ONE does or should. I'm saying that those of us who are bothered by these events have a differing perspective and why. Not that you should think this way, but understand why we do.

 

[Dragon]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.

Gwen, while she was a wholesome little woman, never really did much. Even Stan Lee said that she was invented to be Peter's perfect love, but she just wasn't a very interesting character to write. When MJ came along, people instantly fell in love with her because she was the wild, rambunctious vixen that guys sought after.

Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?

Am I mad at JMS? Oh yeah. I really don't like what he's done to Gwen, but I'll accept it and try to enjoy the rest of the story. Besides, it's not over yet, and we don't know how it's going to end. I'm willing to give JMS the benefit of the doubt. He's given us a good enough run for me to wait it out on this one. He did kind of save the Spidey titles, after all.

I'm not happy, but I'll give the man his due.

But the thing is that Gwen isn't becoming more realistic. She's becoming more unrealistic, because the behavior attributed to her isn't realistic for her.

For example: It's realistic that people kill each other. But I'm sure that most of us agree that it still isn't realistic that Peter would kill his enemies.

Back when there was (And I still think there is) the possibilty of these being Peter's kids, I believed, based on Gwen's character, that was realisitc that Gwen would've gotten pregnant by Peter, learned she was pregnant but was uncertain of what to do about it. She wouldn't want to abort them because they were hers and Peter's. But she also didn't want to put te burden of them on Peter's shoulders before he was really ready to deal with a family.

But in Sins Past- we have her having sex with Norman simply because of his "magnetism". Getting pregnant, not aborting the preganacy. Lying to Peter about it, going away for 4 months with no contact, returning, expecting Peter to still be there for her, and for him to want to still marry her and care for the children that she had as a result of her affair. And this is supposed to be realistic? For Jerry Springer maybe. If anything this renders Gwen, a girl we knew to be pretty smart to just shy of mentally ******ed.

 

[Cyclops]

It's responses like that that show how childish you are about all of this and thus why you rely on generalizations to make your case. I've been trying to get across to you that your take on this is merely your opinion. I've never tried to make it as though it weren't valid, or that my opinion is more important that yours. The premise of your argument has been that because YOU don't see any value in Gwen's character, that NO ONE does or should. I'm saying that those of us who are bothered by these events have a differing perspective and why. Not that you should think this way, but understand why we do.

Oh, yep, you got me down pat. Shoot. How'd you figure me out? Maybe I should just try the direct approach. I IMPOSE MY WILL UPON YOU! BOOGEDY BOO!!! Shoot. Didn't work.

Sarcasm over.

And yeah, Dragon. That's my take on things. Just because I don't toss the precautionary "IMO" inbetween every word I say doesn't mean I'm generalizing. All I've got is my opinion, hell, that's all anybody's got here.

Blam. You expressed your side of it, I expressed my side of it. How are my words imposing my will on everybody else? How is what you were saying any different than what I am saying?

Yes, I consider what Gwen did here an error in judgement. Either that, or her falling prey to Norman's manipulation in some way or another. Which is another point I've brought up, yet was ignored.

See, MJ at least has had alot more to her than Gwen. From being crafted as a joke in the beginning and really fleshing out into a fuller character than more or less anybody in Spidey's supporting cast, she's done quite a bit. We're privvy to her thoughts frequently, and at times has narrated quite a few issues of the book, or portions of others (see Kraven's Last Hunt for example). She figured out Pete's secret identity long ago, she's had more than her fair share of brushes with villains, particularly one who thought that she was Spider-Man, and so on and soforth. MJ developed more as a character because she wasn't initially intended to be Mrs. Spider-Man, that just kinda happened after Gwen died.

Aunt May, I'd agree with you up until recent years when JMS actually gave her a human personality rather than a "doting aunt" stereotype.

And I don't see Gwen running off to have the babies in secret as ******ed. She was young. Scared. Smart people make stupid decisions all the time, despite their intellect. Surely you know what I mean unless you're somehow flawless.

And that's what it was about Gwen that kinda bugged me. She was little more than "the perfect girlfriend" rather than an actual human being who makes mistakes and ****s up royally every once in a while. This adds that dimension to her. I mean, seriously. Can you honestly say that you've never done anything RIDICULOUSLY stupid that causes nothing but regret and misery in your entire life? At it's worst, this is what it is. Does it desanctify Gwen? Yes. Yes it does. Is that a bad thing? No. It just makes her what Pete himself is: human.

But anyway, I better get back to trying to program you guys to line up with my opinions.

 

[dan1]

what if it ends that Norman gave Gwen something to control her mind, and make her tell all those things to MJ cause he thought she would tell Peter, and none of it is true, the kids are just kids he abducted and genetically altered to age faster, and he lied to them, and they have nothing to do with Gwen at all, it was all just a ploy to torture Peter?

Then I would feel a little better about it, but I would still be dissapointed that the writing would be so uninspired to come up with a dragged out BS story that's a "been there, done that." Ever hear of Mysterio? At the end of the arc it's all an illusion? That's silly.

Anyway, it is lame that these guys can't come up with exciting new stuff.

I mean how do you think the plots that these guys are regurgitating and twisting up were created in the first place? They were written by people with great imaginations.

Can't these writers write awesome new stories that continue the characters growth and show us new things about new cast members or already existing cast members that we don't know everything about? (I mean living cast members)

It's weird when a "big" arc ends up being a "look the past was totally different than you thought." I don't know why these people can't get on the ball.

Ezekial/Morlun/Shathra was okay, but the last threat should have been HUGE and we should have learned in the end that Peter is NOT a part of the Spider-Totem mumbo jumbo. He is not the equivalent of the Black Panther, he is an accidental science experiment, not voodo magic.

I think after Millar finishes the 12 issue of Marvel Knights, he is welcome aboard ASM. Unless JMS wants to take Spider-Man >forward> without magic.

 

[Dangerous]

Hate lots, wrecks Gwen one of my fave Spidey characters.

 

[Dragon]

As far as I know, all that anybody really remembers about Gwen was that she died at the hands of the Green Goblin.

That's you. Not speaking for yourself, but everyone else.

Yes, I consider what Gwen did here an error in judgement. Either that, or her falling prey to Norman's manipulation in some way or another. Which is another point I've brought up, yet was ignored.

I've ignored the manipulation thing because that's no where in the text. When Gwen is speaking, it's months later, and she doesn't recall anything other than Norman's magnetism.

And I'm actually agreeing with you that it was an error in judgement. So too was the Goblin murdering her. My point is that error's in judgement don't always equal forgivable errors.

See, MJ at least has had alot more to her than Gwen. From being crafted as a joke in the beginning and really fleshing out into a fuller character than more or less anybody in Spidey's supporting cast, she's done quite a bit. We're privvy to her thoughts frequently, and at times has narrated quite a few issues of the book, or portions of others (see Kraven's Last Hunt for example). She figured out Pete's secret identity long ago, she's had more than her fair share of brushes with villains, particularly one who thought that she was Spider-Man, and so on and soforth. MJ developed more as a character because she wasn't initially intended to be Mrs. Spider-Man, that just kinda happened after Gwen died.

Like I said, MJ only developed into a character because she was given the opportunity to do so. They devoted whole issues and storylines to her development. Gwen was never granted this. And, even with all of the panel-time granted MJ over these 30 YEARS, she still mostly sits on the sidelines, just looking sexy. She's still not a full character. Her very limited career choices mean that she has little direct connection to the stories. This is why MJ has worn out her welcome more than once. JMS has to inject contrivances like her keeping secrets for years to make her a part of the story(Even though her actions earlier in the story made no hint of her having these secrets, and even contradicted her having them. I guessed she did, but only because of the way the story was structured.) Alot more could have been done with Gwen.

And I don't see Gwen running off to have the babies in secret as ******ed. She was young. Scared. Smart people make stupid decisions all the time, despite their intellect. Surely you know what I mean unless you're somehow flawless.

Gwen wasn't that young. She was about 20. Many women have children at that point, and don't manage to screw things up. The ones who do, you can tend to see it coming. A difficult home life. A lack of education, self-esteem and the like. None of which apply to Gwen. And as I keep saying sure, Gwen was capable of making mistakes. But that doesn't mean she's capable of making EVERY CONCEIVABLE MISTAKE. I know of a number of women who have screwed up royally in their lives, yet never committed adultery. I know of some folks who've committed adultery, yet never made other types of mistakes. You see where I'm going here? As established Gwen was the first type. IF JMS wants me to accept that Gwen would've cheated on Peter he needs to present something more significant than Norman's "magnetism". If he was that smooth, then why didn't MJ fall for him too?

And that's what it was about Gwen that kinda bugged me. She was little more than "the perfect girlfriend" rather than an actual human being who makes mistakes and ****s up royally every once in a while. This adds that dimension to her. I mean, seriously. Can you honestly say that you've never done anything RIDICULOUSLY stupid that causes nothing but regret and misery in your entire life? At it's worst, this is what it is. Does it desanctify Gwen? Yes. Yes it does. Is that a bad thing? No. It just makes her what Pete himself is: human.

Peter has never done anything like what Gwen is presented as doing. Does that make him not human? Neither has MJ. And Gwen was hardly the perfect girlfriend. She made mistakes. Going behind Pete's back to meet with Flash to learn about Peter comes to mind. Backing the politician "Bullit" was another. Again had Conway had some imagination he could have come up with other things.

But anyway, I better get back to trying to program you guys to line up with my opinions.

Good luck with that.

 

[shinlyle]

I'm still going to give JMS the next two issues to win me over. Before issue #512, evryone was praising this story(well, alot of people, anyways). After issue #514, we may see a return to that. Who knows. I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt...for now.

 

[Herr Logan]

I gotta side with Cyke on this as well.
Gwen is finally getting to become something nowadays that she wasn't back in the day: Realistic. She is now a person who has made a mistake. If Peter can forgive her, then why can't everyone on these boards?

Why can't everyone forgive Gwen? Because some people have standards and don't allow themselves to be swayed by empty cliches such as "everyone makes mistakes." Spider-Man does plenty of things a rational person wouldn't do, including risking his life for murderous scum like Carnage. Maybe a weak-minded child would think that sort of thing is noble, but in reality, Spider-Man is in fact personally responsible for every single death Carnage adds to the body count. Not by law, but by actual cause and effect. You want to add "realism" to the comic, you better get used to seeing Spider-Man as an accessory before, after, and during the fact of a lot of crimes. Spider-Man is supposed to be a nice, fluffy, wholesome fantasy, albeit tinged with death and sadness, into which even unsavory types like myself can escape to avoid the horrid reality of life. Real life includes killers and rapists that not even the law will labor to neutralize, and a sea of lovers that have so little integrity and respect that it's a miracle any relationship includes two people that actually keep their word to each other. Yeah, let's bring on the reality. There are a few threads open with all kinds of neat suggestions for that, including my suggestion: Peter Parker porking a prostitute and selling drugs to his science class in order to get some extra cash. But we'd forgive him, right?

 

[Dragon]

I'm still going to give JMS the next two issues to win me over. Before issue #512, evryone was praising this story(well, alot of people, anyways). After issue #514, we may see a return to that. Who knows. I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt...for now.

On this we definitely agree. As unhappy as I am with what I'm seeing, I'm still confident things will turn around. Or I'm kicking JMS in the nuts.

 

[Cyclops]

Take note that I also said "as far as I know".

Oh, and I don't need luck with it. You're already infected with a delay-action programming virus that'll have you thinkin' like me in no time flat!