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The Dark Knight Are We Judging This Film Too Soon?

It was time for the *****ing to begin. Just like Nicholson carried the first batman film, Leger will be the downfall of this one. He simply doesn't have the chops to play the joker. Half the actors already in this film like Bale and Oldman would make better jokers.

The key phrase being "carried the 1st Batman film". See, I believe that just like in Begins, TDK will not have to rely so heavily on the Joker, but on Batman (perhaps to a lesser degree than in Begins, but still) AND the supporting characters AND the script (Burton relied on the script as well, as for the supporting characters.... eh). And Batman was certainly not a failure when I saw Begins,IMO.
 
what would be the fun in typecastingthey'll never satisfy everybody so they might as well do their own thing


That's the truth becuase they are far, far, away from satisfying me with these designs. If they are going to do their own thing why even call it Batman, call it what it really is then, a guy dressed in riot gear driving military weapons fighting a guy with makeup on and a bad scar. It's all the same idea but TDK is not what Batman should be.
 
We've only seen images out of context. Liking them or disliking them is natural, but you can't doom (or deify) the movie judging just by them.
 
We've only seen images out of context. Liking them or disliking them is natural, but you can't doom (or deify) the movie judging just by them.


Unless that new picture is only in the movie for the first five minutes the movie is doomed for me. This is especially true if the movie ends with this suit on, crap will that stink. If they start the movie with the Begins suit, which I don't like, and end with the TDK suit, which I hate, then I really can't see how I'm going to like it no matter what they do. The only way, and I mean only way, I can see a silver lining is if they make something that looks like an original costume at the very end of the movie right before the credits.
 
"ah master bruce, I see you're trying on the new pajamas I had made for you"

"do they come in silk?"

[roll credits]
 
Well, to each his own.
When I saw the 1st photo of Bale in his suit, I didn'tl ike him. Thought his face was awkward. Still is at times (especially when he explains Ghul's plan to Gordon), but it sure as hell didn't bother me from enjoying the movie. Because there were other factors in it as well.
If you're telling me that you're willing to ignore other stuff going for this movie and deem it doomed just because of 3 pics, then ok. If you don't like anything you've heard so far about TDK, then this is ok, too. But if there are plot and character elements that you like and you're willing to give the suit THAT much more gravity than them, more power to you. It's a pitty, though. You sound pretty dfinite about your decision.
 
Judging anything is always "too soon." So, yes, judging a film a year before its release date is way "too soon."
 
Whine.
Complain.
Judge.
Whine some more.
Make fun of other's opinions.
Whine some more.
And Judge.



Full time job. :up:

Why did you put "Whine some more" in twice? They should be different colors or something. If your going to do it do it right! That’s not how I see it described in the original books, Man what do you know about describing the fanboys whiny nature. That's not how it was back in 1939....

(Disclaimer : All the above comments made by me are sarcasm. It is a coy little way for me to be silly and still agree with Jstorm. They are in no way affiliated with Jstorm or superhero hype.)
 
Batman and his car should match a little more than the Tumbler did or the Pod does because Batman is about patents technically, without the legal stuff that is. The whole point of Batman's gear is to be functional and have a little Bat flare to it, otherwise it's just gear. I don't need 1060's tv show flare but the car should be a batman car not just a quick looking tank. The Tumbler is a great machine but it's just a machine it's not a Batmobile. I don't need huge fins but something that makes it look like Batman owns it compared to the military. All he did to make it non-military like was paint it. That's like painting a one bedroom house and calling it a mansion, it's still a house. The Tumbler, great vehicle, but still a tumbler that was used, or almost used, by the military. The car and the armor should be Batman like not military like, painting doesn't change that.

Okay, logic time. Batman wants criminals to think he is:

A.) A genetically engineered monkey
B.) An escaped circus clown
C.) A vengeful Bat-monster
D.) Paris Hilton

Choose your answer carefully. Now consider this:

Where does a vengeful Bat-monster buy its cars?

A.) From Bernie Mac
B.) T-Dawg's Custom Rods
C.) Saturn of Gotham
D.) It wouldn't buy a car, but it might acquire one it likes from parts unknown.

I really don't like Batman's vehicles having a bat-motif to them. It doesn't add anything, but it does make it all seem a bit more silly.

I can't stop thinking the TDK suit looks like an ugly variation toy, Riot Gear Batman or Crowd Control Batman or Robotic Machine Wearing Fully Teched, ready for the Middle East Batman. I realize he has armor and I'm ok with that but I don't want to see so much of it. The comics hide it under the suit, why couldn't something, anything, like that happen here? I didn't like the Begins suit before the movie, during the movie, or after the movie because I don't like the fact that it looks more mechanical than human like. Also, the way it was shot on film made me hate it more to be honest.

Well, then you're gonna hate TDK, I guess. So why are you here? You know this movie isn't going to be what you want to see. Why waste your time here? As much as I like the design from the comics, I'm fairly certain the reasons they don't use it are, first, that it doesn't look like armor and while there are ways around this (and I've heard all of them) I suspect Nolan sees it as stretching things too far; and second, that anything you shoot on film should have more detail rather than less, to make it more visually interesting. Both the Begins suit and the TDK one seem to have been designed with the thought of using armor and texture to create something that calls to mind the traditional Batman costume, without actually looking exactly like it. The Begins suit had the capacity to look black and grey; the new one does, too. The TDK suit takes it a step farther and gives the armor plates the shape of muscles, while keeping them separated so that it should move more naturally than previous suits. It's an interesting concept; The Begins and TDK suits look like the classic Batman suit in the same way that the 2008 Camaro looks like a 1968 Camaro. Exactly the same, yet completely different. ;)
 
Perhaps you're right, I don't agree with you, but I'm agreeing with you now about not agreeing with you then if that makes sense. I know it's Batman but that's doesn't make me believe it. I can see a child's costume bought for $20 that looks horrible and I'll know it's Batman but that doesn't mean he should be in a movie version of Batman. How does looking at the TDK picture look like Batman besides the ears and fins? I know, I know, it's Batman but it looks more robotic and Green Goblin like than what Batman should be. The story and actors do matter which is why I thought the Begins was a good movie I just didn't think of it as a Batman movie for me. I know I may be in the vast minority on this one but I felt that everything that was done by the hero in that movie could have been done in a regular vigilante movie. Again, I realize that Wayne has money which ties into everything but the movie didn't give me the feeling I want when I look at Batman whether it be in live action, the cartoons, or in the comics. The fact that the suit, the vehicles, and now the Joker are so far removed from what I was hoping for would make me dislike the movie no matter how well it's written or performed. I just can't enjoy something that I don't want to look at in regards to a movie. It's like being set up on a date, the date is educated, rich, nice, has a career, etc. but is unfortunately butt ugly, has a high pitched voice, and walks with a really big limp. I know that's superficial and a stretch but my point is no matter how good some things are the other things may deter the final product. That, and being a Batman fan is my hobby, I can be superficial about it.

I think I understand a little of what you're saying.

Nolan has alienated plenty of fans with his "re-imaging" of Batman. Despite having a few nods here and there to the comics and being a quality movie, Nolan's character isn't the Batman fans were hoping they would finally get after a 10+ year hiatus from the big screen. Especially after witnessing and enjoying other Batman works (BTAS, etc., etc.) during the hiatus from the silver screen.

Perhaps the biggest influence on the fans has been the great treatment another big name comicbook character got, Spider-man. No it didn't please everyone, but it did more than enough right. Spider-man was a true comicbook movie. Fans probably thought: "this is it, this is the Batman we've been waiting for. They're going to do (either) the comicbook or BTAS. They did Spider-man like the comicbook and it worked. We finally going to see Batman the way he should be." The Spider-man movies, like the Donner films, have raised expectations from comicbook fans big time. Imagine the disappointment when Nolan's Batman turned out to be neither--and TDK looks to continue the trend.

I'm not a hardcore Batman fan, but I am a huge fan of the character, especially BTAS. I have fans that are hardcore Batman fans, whom I thought would love Nolan's film since he has used some material from the comics--moreso than Burton I believe. They were even more critical and dissappointed than me.

Once again, this debate will rage forever....fans just wanted and expected the Batman we have all come to enjoy, not another crazy interpretation.

For the record, I love Burton's films, but Nolan's films are superior from a technical aspect IMO. Burton's films however deliver an artistic vision befitting the Dark Knight, and continued (though more subdued) in BTAS. Overdone at times? For sure...but it worked superbly and fit Batman like a glove.

Obviously one can take the stance that Nolan wanted to create a movie where the constant question among comicbook fanboys is finally answered: "could Batman really exist in the real world?" Problem is, it's one thing to wonder, it's another thing to actually see it...Nolan's "vision" sends me running back to Batman's fantasy world.

Also, I'm sure many will no doubt rationalize Batman's riot armor as evolution and believe that a fabric costume will be fully realized by the third film. I await that day.
 
Yeah, I think it's obvious that both the optimists and pessimists already have preconceived notions about whether they're going to like the movie... I think a lot of that has to do with Batman Begins though. I know I'd be a lot more skeptical about a lot of things if I hadn't loved Begins so much. I have a ton of faith in Nolan.
 
I really don't like Batman's vehicles having a bat-motif to them. It doesn't add anything, but it does make it all seem a bit more silly.
I do, as long as it's not completely over the top. one of my favourite moments in recent comics is in 'Monster Men' where Alfred sarcastically says something like 'All you need is fins', catches Batman looking at the new Batmobile and says 'Oh my God, you're considering it!' Batman is a symbol as much as anything, so carrying this motif does make sense (as the old yellow oval did).

Well, then you're gonna hate TDK, I guess. So why are you here? You know this movie isn't going to be what you want to see. Why waste your time here? As much as I like the design from the comics, I'm fairly certain the reasons they don't use it are, first, that it doesn't look like armor and while there are ways around this (and I've heard all of them) I suspect Nolan sees it as stretching things too far; and second, that anything you shoot on film should have more detail rather than less, to make it more visually interesting. Both the Begins suit and the TDK one seem to have been designed with the thought of using armor and texture to create something that calls to mind the traditional Batman costume, without actually looking exactly like it. The Begins suit had the capacity to look black and grey; the new one does, too. The TDK suit takes it a step farther and gives the armor plates the shape of muscles, while keeping them separated so that it should move more naturally than previous suits. It's an interesting concept; The Begins and TDK suits look like the classic Batman suit in the same way that the 2008 Camaro looks like a 1968 Camaro. Exactly the same, yet completely different. ;)
There is no point making this statement - MacLeod has turned against this movie and that is that.
What, it's not even out yet? But... but... but...
Oh, he's rushing to judgement. How wise. If TDK kicks ass, a lot of humble pie will be eaten.
And the same if it sucks.
But it won't.:cwink:
 
I do, as long as it's not completely over the top. one of my favourite moments in recent comics is in 'Monster Men' where Alfred sarcastically says something like 'All you need is fins', catches Batman looking at the new Batmobile and says 'Oh my God, you're considering it!' Batman is a symbol as much as anything, so carrying this motif does make sense (as the old yellow oval did).

Hehe. Well, I don't really read new comics. :o I'm collecting all of Batman and Detective from about 1970-1992, and I actually have more than half of it. I've got the 90's locked down, almost all of the 80's, and I'm hard at work on the 70's. And yeah, I know how Batman's cars were in the comics. I don't mind it in the comics, but I guess I treat comics and movies differently. I understand what Nolan's doing, more or less, and I'm good with it. To me one of the things that makes Batman great is that he's human and he does all this stuff anyway, against impossible odds. That makes him more realistic in some ways than any other superhero.

Now I don't believe for a second that Nolan is going all "realism" with this stuff, as some people do, but I understand his philosophy of bringing Batman's world more recognizably into our own. I enjoy that. And to me that makes something like the Tumbler the perfect car for Batman.

There is no point making this statement - MacLeod has turned against this movie and that is that.
What, it's not even out yet? But... but... but...
Oh, he's rushing to judgement. How wise. If TDK kicks ass, a lot of humble pie will be eaten.
And the same if it sucks.
But it won't.:cwink:

LOL. I know Chris Nolan enough to know the movie will be a great movie. The question is will it be a Batman movie that I will like? I'm betting it will, so I agree with you there.

But I don't think Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod up there is going to like it no matter what Nolan does. :(
 
:cmad: :cmad: :cmad:
What, no Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Monster Men, recent Detective comics, Man Who Laughs, Hush?
What happened in 1992 that made Batman comics crap?

It's what happened in 1993, actually: Knightfall.

I do have Hush - I enjoyed it mostly for the art, as I love Jim Lee, but the story was okay. I think people give Jeph Loeb too much credit, though; the introducing of Tommy Elliot just to have him be the villain? :down

I'm also no fan of Long Halloween, Dark Victory, etc, mostly because I think Tim Sale's art is ugly and Jeph Loeb only mediocre as a writer. I tend to get a lot of flak for that here, none more than from my buddy Norm, but I stand by my views. ;)
 
It's what happened in 1993, actually: Knightfall.

I do have Hush - I enjoyed it mostly for the art, as I love Jim Lee, but the story was okay. I think people give Jeph Loeb too much credit, though; the introducing of Tommy Elliot just to have him be the villain? :down

I'm also no fan of Long Halloween, Dark Victory, etc, mostly because I think Tim Sale's art is ugly and Jeph Loeb only mediocre as a writer. I tend to get a lot of flak for that here, none more than from my buddy Norm, but I stand by my views. ;)
You are so on my enemies list. It's actually Nixon's enemies list, just with a few added names
*scribbles on list*
Done.
What was wrong with Knightfall?
 
anyone who thinks ledger cant act is very wrong IMO. get out of your mind stuff like the lame casanova and knights tale ( he was trying to be sold as a heartthrob pin up ) or maybe the fact that you feel you cannot cope with a gay cowboy film.. go rent Candy, Monsters Ball, try watch/rewatch Brokeback Mountain - ..real acting chops but still fresh.. the guy is awesome, volatile, intense, powerful, dark, sexy, unpredictable.. he burns up the screen.. he is a true dark star - give him a chance and he'll destroy you. i think his charisma, hidden depth, weird energy and presence more than qualify him for the role. him and bale (another truly dark star) onscreen at the same time is going to be something else. i also think giving joker a ****ed up sex appeal is a genius move for the movie, and for a new joker .. it will make him more exciting , younger and dangerous than nicholson, and i think closer to the graphic novels etc.. its bold and , to me, waaay more exciting than casting a more conventional, predictable joker-like actor.

i love burtons batman, but to me although the joker was brilliant.. i still just see jack nicholson. i actually think heath will BE the joker.. a new joker yes..but finally i think we will see him with our own eyes in all his messed up glory.

sorry to be so extreme but im so hyped for this film.. bring it on.
 
Are we judging this film too soon??? Um, yeah! Kirsten Dunst was once asked who was worse, the critics or the comic fans. She said the comic fans were a lot worse, because at least the critics waited to SEE the movie before they passed judgement. So, yes, I think people are judging this film way too soon.
 
No. Never underestimate the ability of fanboys to change their minds. Just look to Superman Returns: before it came out, those who thought it would be bad were a ridiculed minority (Myself among them), and those who knew it would be good were a staggering majority. Afterwards, the tables were entirely reversed. Now, most people think it was lame and a handful like it. I expected it to suck, but after seeing it realized it was actually fantastic. Even though it wasn't the movie I wanted--and had a couple of things I would have definitely changed--I loved it, after having spent the previous two years ranting about how awful it would be.

There are certain individuals who are so close to a film that they won't change their minds--even if deep down they realize they were wrong--but for the most part, we fanboys are perfectly capable of reversing our positions.

you bring up good points on returns saying how people backed it but whenit didnt deliever they changed sides... this forum here isnt anywhere near what returns was... i think this film will be fine.. im not gonna over hype this film but i have faith in nolan since he proved himself in my eyes, unlike singerman whos blown 3 superhero movies in a row... aside from some decent casting
 

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