Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 7 "State v. Queen" Discussion Thread

[Spider-Fan83]

did it every become publicly known that Malcolm was the dark archer, after his supposed death?

cause I was surprised that didn't come up in the trail, it would certainly help her case in terms of her fearing him

I would think Ollie would have tried to find prove to bring to the courts attention, or for that matter prove that he was involved with the LOS

 

[jacobed]

I don't think anyone ever knew he was the Dark Archer. Also what a crazy, shocking ending with him coming back

 

[Justin]

http://www.etonline.com/tv/141056_Ar...unt/index.html

extended opening if your interested. explains how count went from hospital to prison and who the jailer he took the keys off was.

 

[regnak]

Ratings came in, it scored a 0,9 demo rating with 2.53 millions viewers. I think it will adjust upto a 1 though. This show deserves way more IMO.

The Diggle vs Deadshot plot must have been the big draw last week.

 

[Loki882]

Confirmed, no. Malcolm just said he's been a place where death is an illusion and he learned how to fake it. Although I don't know how much you have to fake it when you have an arrow through your heart.

The same way that Deadshot came back from an arrow to the eye, he was never dead to begin with. Malcolm got stabbed in the chest, but we don't know for sure that it hit his heart.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

The Diggle vs Deadshot plot must have been the big draw last week.

I'll never understand why people would just tune in out of nowhere to watch Diggle X Deadshot, characters they don't even know given that they apparently never bother with the show otherwise, and then stop caring for the show the next day.

If I normally don't watch a show and see an ad for it on TV saying "Don't Miss Next Week !!! As Random Guy X takes on Random Guy Y"

I still won't watch the show because I haven't watched the previous episodes to care about them.

 

[Human Torch]

The turn off could be setting most of the episode like an episode of Matlock.People wanna see action.I wanna see courtroom ****,i'd turn on one of the 40 Law and Order shows on.

 

[regnak]

The turn off could be setting most of the episode like an episode of Matlock.People wanna see action.I wanna see courtroom ****,i'd turn on one of the 40 Law and Order shows on.

But the courtroom stuff wasn't in the promo it was all about Vertigo.

 

[regnak]

I'll never understand why people would just tune in out of nowhere to watch Diggle X Deadshot, characters they don't even know given that they apparently never bother with the show otherwise, and then stop caring for the show the next day.

If I normally don't watch a show and see an ad for it on TV saying "Don't Miss Next Week !!! As Random Guy X takes on Random Guy Y"

I still won't watch the show because I haven't watched the previous episodes to care about them.

People tune in for different reasons that's why ratings go up and down.

 

[Human Torch]

Holy arrows, Batman! Didn't see that coming.

Some future predictions:
1) Slade will gain his powers through the super soldier serum.

2) The Count's death at the hands of the vigilante will tarnish Detective Lance's relationship with Green Arrow. In turn, Sara being alive might also tarnish his relationship with Oliver.

3) The Lazarus Pit definitely exists.

4) Malcolm might try to bring back Tommy with the Lazarus Pit. If that is the case, Tommy may or may not be trained by him and later fight Ollie.

5) Malcolm will try to get Thea to his side and will succeed for a temporary amount of time. Then he will train her while Ollie trains Roy. Eventually she will join Ollie and Roy in the Arrowcave after Ollie and Roy have had a few adventures together and had formed a bond.

6) The truth of Moira's verdict will come out eventually and she will get the death penalty.

4. This occurred to me as well.If Malcolm could use the Pit,I don't see how he wouldn't try to use it on Tommy.(If it actually exists) Losing his wife was obviously a blow to him.I can't see him losing Tommy without doing something if he possibly can.

5.Probably true.I could see that happening,knowing Thea as we do.

6.I doubt it.She'll probably still be killed off,though.

 

[Human Torch]

But the courtroom stuff wasn't in the promo it was all about Vertigo.

Well,the episode was called State vs Queen.

At any rate,The Count wasn't really a fan favorite to begin with,(myself notwithstanding) so that might also account for the viewer drop off.

 

[mr. peasant]

I'll never understand why people would just tune in out of nowhere to watch Diggle X Deadshot, characters they don't even know given that they apparently never bother with the show otherwise, and then stop caring for the show the next day.

If I normally don't watch a show and see an ad for it on TV saying "Don't Miss Next Week !!! As Random Guy X takes on Random Guy Y"

I still won't watch the show because I haven't watched the previous episodes to care about them.

If a show averages about 2 million viewers a week, it's important to realise that it isn't the exact same 2 million people tuning in every week. As such, the sharp rise is probably a result of all these viewers being compelled to watch that one same episode at the same time.

 

[Donut]

Another episode with Laurel in it & the ratings go down

 

[regnak]

Another episode with Laurel in it & the ratings go down

Nice try but she wasn't in the promo at all.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I'm glad Ollie killed Vertigo as I'm not a fan of that character, the way it went down was great and I loved the scene with Ollie and Felicity in the Arrow cave afterwards.

The ep balanced the trial and Vertigo stories well, not sure how I feel about Malcolm being alive, I prefer dead is dead in my shows, but the revelation about Thea opens up some interesting possibilities for her this season.

Cool to see Shado in the hood and it looks like Slade is gonna end up with the super soldier serum after all. I'm guessing it's the same serum Blood is using in the current day, I'm intrigued to see how the two strands tie together.

 

[Loki882]

Blood and Ivo are both involved with HIVE possibly.

 

[godisawesome]

I'm thinking they had Vertigo killed at least in part to make a break with their Season 1 leftovers. He and Deadshot were both originally neutered and cheap versions of their comic-book identities, but Deadshot was just a Geoff Johns episode away from being fixed. Vertigo was already kind of too far away from his original style to come back, and he made an excellent distraction for the bigger plot developments for the season this episode had to cover.

I do hope someone comes in and explains exactly how Malcolm got back to health and his resources. Perhaps his storyline will pick up with Nyssa next year? Maybe he helps her in part to secure his daughter for awhile.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'm thinking they had Vertigo killed at least in part to make a break with their Season 1 leftovers. He and Deadshot were both originally neutered and cheap versions of their comic-book identities, but Deadshot was just a Geoff Johns episode away from being fixed. Vertigo was already kind of too far away from his original style to come back, and he made an excellent distraction for the bigger plot developments for the season this episode had to cover.

This is something I've been wanting to ask people for a while: Does anyone feel as if the writers kept realizing all their mistakes as the show progressed? I've had that since Season 1.

I really don't buy a lot of the "plans" the writers claim they had since the beginning. A lot of it feels like them realizing they made mistakes and trying to correct them.

The biggest example by far is the list. Originally they came up with the list to give Oliver a reason to go out at night and take out certain people. However, the list hasn't been the driving factor in the story since episode 11 of season 1 (the one with Diggle's army pal). There hasn't been an episode where the main plot of it was Oliver going after someone on the list since then. Then we had the Undertaking at the finale and it had some plot holes - plot holes that contradicted things set up after the mid-season finale. In a lot of ways, the finale felt a bit like the ending they had in mind before they wrote all the post-mid-season-finale stuff.

Then there is Deadshot. They dropped the whole tattoo thing, gave him more of his comic book look, and made him more and more like comic book Deadshot. It doesn't feel like a character progression though. It feels more like they just changed him for the better. It is a bit of a plot hole continuity-wise, but we don't care because they made him a lot better. Same thing applies to Count Vertigo.

Then there is Thea. She would constantly get in cliché CW arguments with Oliver in the first few episodes. Most of that is dropped not too long after.

Then there was the lack of flashbacks in the Huntress two-parter. We haven't seen an episode that lacks flashbacks since then.

The list goes on and on. My point is that at some point, they realized and thought to themselves "Holy crap, this show is and can be a lot better than we thought it was going to be". This season has already surpassed the last season in set-ups, expanding the DC universe, twists, storytelling, etc.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm glad Ollie killed Vertigo as I'm not a fan of that character, the way it went down was great and I loved the scene with Ollie and Felicity in the Arrow cave afterwards.

The ep balanced the trial and Vertigo stories well, not sure how I feel about Malcolm being alive, I prefer dead is dead in my shows, but the revelation about Thea opens up some interesting possibilities for her this season.

Cool to see Shado in the hood and it looks like Slade is gonna end up with the super soldier serum after all. I'm guessing it's the same serum Blood is using in the current day, I'm intrigued to see how the two strands tie together.

Normally I'm of the same opinion in terms of characters dying, but killing off Merlyn was one thing I wasn't happy with at the end of season 1. Don't get me wrong, he went out in a great way, and still "won" in a sense, even though Ollie bested him, but he was such a good villain I really didn't want him offed that quickly. This show is doing a great job of building a world, but it doesn't help if you kill off all the good villains.

Also, since they seem to be going for a more comic book Ras, if Malcom has to do with the Lazarus Pits then I don't mind his resurrection.

 

[Shikamaru]

Merlyn is easily the best character in the show IMO. I could watch that actor for hours and not get bored.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Merlyn is easily the best character in the show IMO. I could watch that actor for hours and not get bored.

Agreed. And it helps that they gave him a wonderful motivation for why he is the way he is. The voicemail of his wife was heartbreaking in the best way, and you can completely understand why he went off the deep end with it.

Also, with your other points about the changes, I've gotten that feeling a bit as well. It has lead to some holes, but we mostly overlook them because the changes have been better. But the one hole that did bug me a bit was the list issue, at the end of the season, the entire time I couldn't help but think "why the heck didn't Oliver's dad just say, "Ollie, you gotta stop Merlyn. Dude's nutso. Like, really." They were setting up to seem like a city-wide conspiracy thing, when it really turned out to be just Merlyn's plan, so that was a bit weak.

However, the finale was so good I didn't care all that much about the plot hole. The one thing they can't seem to fix is Laurel. I know a lot of people rag on the actress, but honestly, she really hasn't been given any good material. They need to figure out something to do with her character quickly.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Blood and Ivo are both involved with HIVE possibly.

I wonder if H.I.V.E. and the League of Assassins are connected at all?

Also, anyone find it interesting that they seem to be using a lot of Teen Titans stuff? Anyone think they might be planning on introducing the Titans eventually? If they bring in Nightwing I think that makes it even more likely.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I wonder if H.I.V.E. and the League of Assassins are connected at all?

Also, anyone find it interesting that they seem to be using a lot of Teen Titans stuff? Anyone think they might be planning on introducing the Titans eventually? If they bring in Nightwing I think that makes it even more likely.

I brought this up the other day. I think it's likely we'll see Cyborg, Raven and Wally West down the line

 

[Crossvale]

I'll never understand why people would just tune in out of nowhere to watch Diggle X Deadshot, characters they don't even know given that they apparently never bother with the show otherwise, and then stop caring for the show the next day.

2x06 is also the episode that had Amanda Waller debuting, and the actress was from spartacus, who knows she could likely have brought some fans with her, I seem to remember the episode ratings spinking when Slade/Manu Benett was first brought in the show.

And or the change of location, Team Arrow's first "road trip" got people excited too. The episode was also post Black Canary's 2 episode arc, which was received well.

2x07, States vs Queen just sounded "law & order", and many fans dislike this version of the count. In any case the episode didnt do bad at all considering the circumstances, a 1.0 in demo , 2.66 million viewers is certainly still good.

Also, anyone find it interesting that they seem to be using a lot of Teen Titans stuff? Anyone think they might be planning on introducing the Titans eventually? If they bring in Nightwing I think that makes it even more likely.

No, I dont find it interesting at all, this show is already too crowded as it is and the titans would seem out of place in a show like this, the series is more adult like and doesnt need anymore teenagers that it already has. The only other hero team that I can see working and fitting in Arrow is Birds of Prey.

I think Wally is more likely for the Flash spin off down the road, and the teen titans squad would also work better there imo.

 

[Mister J]

I don't care for this incarnation of Count Vertigo, so I've no problem with him being offed. I even found the cadence that he was using to be grating. I've seen Seth Gabel in other stuff and never was this cold towards a role of his.

I saw the Thea twist coming. As a simple affair (~20 years ago) as it was presented at trial wouldn't have been cause for all that consternation. You would think by the gravity the prosecution was giving it, they'd have known about the eventual disclosure. Hopefully, they did, but Laurel chose not to employ it.

Warning: Digression Coming

Spoiler

Then double jeopardy can attach, Laurel can be charged with prosecutorial misconduct, disbarred and then (in a new turn of sentencing guidelines) banished to an unknown location, never to be seen again. Ahh, that felt good.

Kinda anticlimactic on the actual reveal, but by that time, I was too far in the throes of a grin befitting a madman at the return of Malcolm. Barrowman is ****ing awesome!