Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[SuperFerret]

Religion was started as a way of explaining the world around us.

 

[Bubonic]

Of course there is no God. God belongs to same category as Santa Claus and all other childish things.

See bro, this is what I'm trying to avoid here.
You've got an opinion, and we'd love to hear it, but try to flesh it out a bit more.
As it is this is an invitation for an unnecessary argument.
What process did you go through to get to your conclusion, why is it that you're comfortable dealing in absolutes, et cetera.

 

[Timstuff]

Atheism is like any other religious belief-- if you are not loud and obnoxious about it, you are a lot less likely to have people give you a hard time about it.

 

[The Morningstar]

Religion was started as a way of explaining the world around us.

That too. But i think fear mongering is a big part of it also.

 

[Bubonic]

That's more as society evolved, the early roots were purely naturalistic, beautiful and pure.

 

[The Morningstar]

How do you know? How does anyone know?

Because of the Bible or ancient scriptures etc? Who says they are real and not just fictional stories?

 

[SuperFerret]

No, because that's how the beliefs of old started. Science and religion both started out as the same damn thing, which is why it baffles me that people see them as continually at odds.

The fear mongering and manipulation came much later when organization was implemented into the way people believed.

 

[Bubonic]

How do you know? How does anyone know?

Because of the Bible or ancient scriptures etc? Who says they are real and not just fictional stories?

How do I know about the fear mongering connection to religion with the rise of larger more complex societies? Well, there is a lot of conjecture there, but I'll theorize that as societies grew egalitarianism wasn't going to work, one way to control large groups of people that is terribly effective is through fear.

Keep in mind that when I talk of the early roots of religion I'm stretching way back, not just 2000 years ago.
I'm talking nomads, they had enough to fear in the world around them not to need to scare themselves, they were all basically in the same boat and hierarchy didn't play into.

Some may ask, well how the hell can you know if there is no written history of these times; anthropologist have been observing so called primitive societies for a long time, not all people's of the world had been absorbed into the larger status quo and they gave a very good framework as to how the earliest people went about there daily lives.

 

[SuperFerret]

It seems to me that many can't separate the organization from the religion, and that's where most of these arguments stem from (it also provides the terribly ironic fact that atheists will quote scripture to Christians more than vice versa, at least on here).

Religion, or belief or faith if the R word irks you, is a deeply personal thing, and shouldn't be uniform or have a hierarchy. If you want to join together with like-minded people and call yourself "Christains" or "Buddhists" or "Atheists" or whatever, fine, but don't take things at face value because someone told you something. Think it out for yourself, see if it makes sense to YOU and then apply whatever value to it that you wish.

(Note: This goes for anything anyone tells you, not just religious stuff. A healthy amount of skepticism is one of the things that those who prop up Science as nearly infallible tend to state as its top qualities, while at the same time, completely ignoring it.)

 

[The Morningstar]

I'm not sure if you're just talking in general or aiming that at me, but I have thought it through for myself. I think it's cool that people can take a leap of faith and truly believe in something.

I can't take that leap of faith though. I'm not sure how we or the universe came into being. I don't think we as in, mankind, will ever know for sure. But personally, I put more belief into the scientific approach because there could be some hard evidence some day. I don't see there being hard evidence when it comes to religion, ever.

 

[SuperFerret]

You don't have to be sure. In fact, you shouldn't EVER be sure. Being sure means that you don't have any doubt and doubt is crucial to life.

And, let me ask you this, unless you see this hard evidence for yourself, how do you know what to believe?

 

[ObakeTora]

Wow, I respect your rights to not beleive, but if you guys saw half the mess I saw in my life you'd all get on your knees and repent to Jesus immediately.... There are so many con-men who have a louder voice than those of us true believers, and yet these are the people many of you are judging our faith on. Yesterday was a black eye in the face of Christianity, because it just proved how people will listen to the words of man when God has stated otherwise, yet today my calendar with daily bible quotes said this. Acts 20:30 look it up if you would like.. and praise Jesus.

 

[Bubonic]

Quite appropriate actually, certainly reminds of to be wary of the snakes.

Of course experiencing your life as you have would make anyone of us you, but we aren't you, the sum of our experiences and our interpretations of said experiences can't be yours because we aren't you so that kind of amounts to not say anything at all.

If it isn't too personal could you give an example of something from your life you think would make an atheist do a 180, drop to their knees and praise Jesus?

 

[The Morningstar]

You don't have to be sure. In fact, you shouldn't EVER be sure. Being sure means that you don't have any doubt and doubt is crucial to life.

And, let me ask you this, unless you see this hard evidence for yourself, how do you know what to believe?

Well that's what I said. I'm not really sure what is what. I haven't seen hard evidence from either camp. Religion or science.

But, my instinct tells me that the science camp has a better chance of providing hard evidence about the nature of the universe. It's more tangible. Religion, to all intents and purposes, is just superstition.

And yea, I'm not really bothered about being sure. The nature of the universe isn't really something I think about that much.

 

[The Morningstar]

Wow, I respect your rights to not beleive, but if you guys saw half the mess I saw in my life you'd all get on your knees and repent to Jesus immediately.... There are so many con-men who have a louder voice than those of us true believers, and yet these are the people many of you are judging our faith on. Yesterday was a black eye in the face of Christianity, because it just proved how people will listen to the words of man when God has stated otherwise, yet today my calendar with daily bible quotes said this. Acts 20:30 look it up if you would like.. and praise Jesus.

Yea see, I ain't feeling that man. You start out by saying you respect our right to not believe... then you kinda put down non believers. Saying we judge believers based on these nut jobs say.

 

[Bubonic]

What science has on it's side that religion doesn't seem to have is that science isn't supposed to accept the status quo. Scientist do try to debunk theories, try to evolve, whereas religion is quite dogmatic and fights tooth and nail against change.

Still some people argue that the world as we know it is no more then 6000 years old despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Sure scientist have been know to hold on to theories, like the sun revolves around the earth, but eventually the right group of people come along and set things right.

 

[The Morningstar]

Well that's it. Science is constantly asking questions. With religion I find it's just accepting stuff that was written down thousands of years ago. If some people can do that? Fine, I ain't looking down on them or anything. But I can't do that.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Wow, I respect your rights to not beleive, but if you guys saw half the mess I saw in my life you'd all get on your knees and repent to Jesus immediately.... There are so many con-men who have a louder voice than those of us true believers, and yet these are the people many of you are judging our faith on. Yesterday was a black eye in the face of Christianity, because it just proved how people will listen to the words of man when God has stated otherwise, yet today my calendar with daily bible quotes said this. Acts 20:30 look it up if you would like.. and praise Jesus.

And what you don't seem to understand is that there are those of other religions who make the EXACT same claim about their respective deities. I once read about an example in my own faith where a group of Tibetan refugees were escaping into India from the Himalayas when they were spotted by a Chinese helicopter and the Chinese began to open fire on them. They then claimed to have seen Green Tara (a Tibetan protector goddess) in the sky, and then a strong wind supposedly caused the helicopter to crash into the mountains and burst into flames.

Now, I don't know if this event with the helicopter actually occurred or not, and even if it did, I don't know if these people really saw Green Tara in the sky when it happened. Maybe they did. Not being involved in the Tibetan tradition, I don't really believe in the deity aspect of Buddhism. But the thing is, if you've seen miracles performed by Jesus or that you attribute to him, why should I believe you over these refugees? What makes your story any more valid? What makes it more valid than a similar miracle story from a Hindu or a pagan?

 

[SuperFerret]

What science has on it's side that religion doesn't seem to have is that science isn't supposed to accept the status quo. Scientist do try to debunk theories, try to evolve, whereas ORGANIZED religion is quite dogmatic and fights tooth and nail against change.

Still some people argue that the world as we know it is no more then 6000 years old despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Sure scientist have been know to hold on to theories, like the sun revolves around the earth, but eventually the right group of people come along and set things right.

As I've been saying, it's the organization and manipulation of the beliefs that causes problems.

 

[Mr.Webs]

It seems to me that many can't separate the organization from the religion, and that's where most of these arguments stem from (it also provides the terribly ironic fact that atheists will quote scripture to Christians more than vice versa, at least on here).

Religion, or belief or faith if the R word irks you, is a deeply personal thing, and shouldn't be uniform or have a hierarchy. If you want to join together with like-minded people and call yourself "Christains" or "Buddhists" or "Atheists" or whatever, fine, but don't take things at face value because someone told you something. Think it out for yourself, see if it makes sense to YOU and then apply whatever value to it that you wish.

(Note: This goes for anything anyone tells you, not just religious stuff. A healthy amount of skepticism is one of the things that those who prop up Science as nearly infallible tend to state as its top qualities, while at the same time, completely ignoring it.)

Well said. Just as Buddha said, "Find your own light." Human beings are complex creatures and finding our own light is a case by case basis.

 

[TheIncredibleSk]

Became a Atheist two years ago and have never look back. I just can't take the bible seriously and reject and take god seriously. Plus the story of Jesus is plagiarism is my eyes, so they all make no sense and are crazy to me.

 

[ObakeTora]

What makes it more valid than a similar miracle story from a Hindu or a pagan?

I have never for once in my life seen a green Tara. I did however see a cross in the sky when I asked for a sign. But like I said earlier, I'm not forcing anyone to beleive what I beleive, as it says let your light so shine so men may see your works and glorify your father in heaven. I guess to answer your question would require faith on your part as I can lead you to water but not make you drink it.

atheist do a 180, drop to their knees and praise Jesus?

Sigh where do I begin? In 1997 I saw Spawn, drunk off alcohol and demon weed. The Hell part of the film scared me so much that after the film I retreated somewhere and prayed. Confessing my sins, and what not. So I asked for a sign, (a cross in the sky) and low and behold a line shaped cloud appeared, yet there was another diagonal shaped line cloud already there. I looked closer and I didn't see plane or anything, and the cloud converged on the earlier cloud to form an X. I was thinking about the cross of Alexander and how that was in the form of an X and that was enough for me, but when I waited, the X formed a perfect cross. Thats just one story out of a million.

When I became sober I would see coincidences that were in line with my thinking. I'd see bible passages in car license plates, have premonitions. One time I felt something touch me inside, and I felt something lead me to this street, I then noticed a lady pissed off yelling at the sky coming from a bank. Why was a drawn to that street?


I was in Manila and the corrupt cops had tried to kidnap me to extort me for money, I silently prayed my way through the situation, and they had no choice to let me go. I was given a choice to leave the next day, I didnt, and I noticed my only means of financial support ( a credit card) was missing. I prayed again and afterwards the phone rang, and it was from someone who had found my card. I left it in a bar, but there were no charges placed on it, and was able to go home the next day.

When I was 14 I was pretty weak, always getting picked on and what not. I remember I was so proud to be receiving a B+ in Pre-Algebra, and if I passed the last test I would get an A. So one day I walk into class, and everybody is accusing people of something. Than they said "I DID IT!" What did I do? Is this a joke I think to myself. The teacher asked if I drank out of his soda while he was away on lunch. Apparently I snuck out of my other class while he was having lunch to walk half a mile across campus to drink out of his particular cup. Even though I had money to buy my own soda, he tells me to go to the principal's office where I was suspended for 5 days. So i call my parents and they argue with the man, and at this point I was begging for home school. So they compromised, since he was the only one to teach Pre-Algebra I would be demoted to applied math. I went home said my prayers over the incident, and it was in that applied math class where I learned the teacher who had kicked me out of his class for drinking out of his soda, was discovered dead in his apartment over heart failure. He had been dead for 3 days.

And thats just a few points, I have several stories I can share, and thats not including all of the premonitions I have been getting my entire life.

But I guess you can find any explanation for these events, but I'm not forcing anyone to beleive what i beleive, I was just stating that all my life I always knew I could lean on God and he would always deliver me. He has never really let me down and if I didn't get what i want it was for my own good.

 

[Bubonic]

I have never for once in my life seen a green Tara. I did however see a cross in the sky when I asked for a sign. But like I said earlier, I'm not forcing anyone to beleive what I beleive, as it says let your light so shine so men may see your works and glorify your father in heaven. I guess to answer your question would require faith on your part as I can lead you to water but not make you drink it.

That is indeed very powerful stuff.
Of course you wouldn't see the Green Tara, or the Baby Buddha if that doesn't fit your world view, but do you feel that having seen the cross in the sky as proof that these other visions people have as fallacy?

How do other religions fit into the worldview of someone that has had such a powerful religious experience themselves?

 

[ObakeTora]

Yea see, I ain't feeling that man. You start out by saying you respect our right to not believe... then you kinda put down non believers. Saying we judge believers based on these nut jobs say.

Sigh (again) I didnt mean all of you, but I know of many who have based their atheism on many foul instances of misbehavior by people who represent my religion.

That is indeed very powerful stuff.
Of course you wouldn't see the Green Tara, or the Baby Buddha if that doesn't fit your world view, but do you feel that having seen the cross in the sky as proof that these other visions people have as fallacy?

How do other religions fit into the worldview of someone that has had such a powerful religious experience themselves?

Thanks, but I never said that was impossible, maybe Buddha and God work together and since man is so adamant about arguing about which religion is best, maybe that was God's way of telling us "how you serve me doesnt matter, just serve me in the way where it pleases me and benefits your fellow man and women."

But really there should be no such thing as religion, as it is just 3 blind men trying to describe an elephant. My nephew is a Buddhist because of the hypocrisy he saw from other Christians. But I never once tried to talk to him out of it. It brings him peace, and thats how I see God.

 

[Scooter]

When I became sober I would see coincidences that were in line with my thinking. I'd see bible passages in car license plates, have premonitions. One time I felt something touch me inside, and I felt something lead me to this street, I then noticed a lady pissed off yelling at the sky coming from a bank. Why was a drawn to that street?


I was in Manila and the corrupt cops had tried to kidnap me to extort me for money, I silently prayed my way through the situation, and they had no choice to let me go. I was given a choice to leave the next day, I didnt, and I noticed my only means of financial support ( a credit card) was missing. I prayed again and afterwards the phone rang, and it was from someone who had found my card. I left it in a bar, but there were no charges placed on it, and was able to go home the next day.

When I was 14 I was pretty weak, always getting picked on and what not. I remember I was so proud to be receiving a B+ in Pre-Algebra, and if I passed the last test I would get an A. So one day I walk into class, and everybody is accusing people of something. Than they said "I DID IT!" What did I do? Is this a joke I think to myself. The teacher asked if I drank out of his soda while he was away on lunch. Apparently I snuck out of my other class while he was having lunch to walk half a mile across campus to drink out of his particular cup. Even though I had money to buy my own soda, he tells me to go to the principal's office where I was suspended for 5 days. So i call my parents and they argue with the man, and at this point I was begging for home school. So they compromised, since he was the only one to teach Pre-Algebra I would be demoted to applied math. I went home said my prayers over the incident, and it was in that applied math class where I learned the teacher who had kicked me out of his class for drinking out of his soda, was discovered dead in his apartment over heart failure. He had been dead for 3 days.

And thats just a few points, I have several stories I can share, and thats not including all of the premonitions I have been getting my entire life.

But I guess you can find any explanation for these events, but I'm not forcing anyone to beleive what i beleive, I was just stating that all my life I always knew I could lean on God and he would always deliver me. He has never really let me down and if I didn't get what i want it was for my own good.

I know I'm not the only one reading this.