Avengers 1-4 vs The Dark Knight Trilogy

[BatLobster]

It's all just a matter of preference, but I think comparing the portals moment in Endgame to the pit climb in Rises is pretty much a perfect encapsulation of how the two approaches to comic book films are just entirely different. Each is kind of the "money shot" of their respective movie. One is the most superheroes you've ever seen on screen on once, in a visual effects heavy battle scene, the other is fairly modest in scale, simple straight forward scene with fantastic visual storytelling. I think that's exactly what I love about it. It dared to give the most triumphant, fistpumping, "titular" moment in the film to Bruce Wayne, not Batman. It still had the big final battle and action you'd expect, but that was a singular moment that transcended a comic book film for me.

@The Joker

That's cool man, I guess maybe just from all those debates we had you can forget that people have more nuanced opinions than it seems sometimes. I also don't think it's flawless or beyond criticism, I have my issues with it-- but I guess I've tended to be more glass half-full with it because the things I love about, I really love and I walked away feeling satisfied and I was just grateful to finally get a complete Batman film trilogy from the same creative team that had the b*lls to truly end the story.

I do agree that if Heath lived, we could've gotten something quite different that may have appealed to even more people. But I suppose I was always easier on TDKR because I knew it had a semi-impossible task of following TDK without Heath. And I do still wish it had about 15 more minutes of screentime to flesh out certain aspects a bit more. Still love it though.

 

[Awest66]

Again, to each his own. I liked Age of Ultron more than I did TDKR. I enjoyed things like watching the floating city and such more than I did the rehashed end chase McGuffin that can end Gotham we got in TDKR. But, no one has to agree with me. It's just how I feel.

The ending of the Avengers fighting an army of disposable drones replete with Hulk having a comedic beatdown of the villain and the Avengers having to stop a doomsday machine is way a more of a rehash than TDKR"s ending.

The ending of Batman Begins wasnt a chase scene either.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The ending of the Avengers fighting an army of disposable drones replete with Hulk having a comedic beatdown of the villain and the Avengers having to stop a doomsday machine is way a more of a rehash than TDKR"s ending.

The ending of Batman Begins wasnt a chase scene either.

Both movies hinged on Wayne Tech items that could destroy Gotham that were stolen by the LoS. One by forcing people to cannibalize each other, the other by boom. So yeah, it's basically the same to me. It's stop the McGuffin from blowing up in a ticking time bomb scenario. Only Ra's was awesome. Talia sucked. AoU at least had an interesting set piece for the battle. Again, you're free to disagree amigo. But that's just how I feel.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

No matter how people might feel about them individually both TDKR and Endgame had some great memorable, moments IMO that definitely hit me hard emotionally and I could not be happier that I was able to experience all of it in front of the big screen for the first time with a huge audience in the most packed theater possible. Sadly, seeing how things are nowadays I don't even know if we can ever have movie going experiences like that ever again which would suck, because for me personally that's the kind of stuff I go to the movies for.

 

[Awest66]

Oh no, man, my overall stance on TDKR has not really changed. I still think that it falls short compared to BB and TDK, but its not the dumpster fire you see some people accuse it of being. I still enjoy it a lot, and its a decent end to the Nolan trilogy. There's plenty for me to enjoy in it. All those debates we had back then about the necessity of bringing back the LOS and all that, those were good times, and I still stand by them.

I still believe had Heath not passed away we'd have gotten a different and probably better movie than we did. When Heath's sister said in that interview a couple of years ago that he was already planning on an encore performance with the Joker;

“He was so proud of what he had done in Batman. And I know he had plans for another Batman. He loved working with Chris Nolan and Christian Bale and Gary Oldman. He just had the best time ever doing that film."

Heath Ledger's sister recalls the late actor's excitement over returning to The Joker

I think he and Nolan did have some discussions about a possible direction for the third movie that involved Joker. But at the end of the day we got TDKR, and its still a solid movie, IMO, even though it falls short of its predecessors.

It certainly is something to ponder isnt it? I really dont think the Joker would be the main villain two movies in a row though (I like to see variety in the villains used in Batman projects not just one reused over and over)

That being said there are plenty of great Batman movies that use the Joker in a supporting role without having him take over everything (Under the Red Hood and the Dark Knight Returns both come to mind) so if anyone could do it, Nolan could.

 

[Awest66]

Both movies hinged on Wayne Tech items that could destroy Gotham that were stolen by the LoS. One by forcing people to cannibalize each other, the other by boom. So yeah, it's basically the same to me. It's stop the McGuffin from blowing up in a ticking time bomb scenario. Only Ra's was awesome. Talia sucked. AoU at least had an interesting set piece for the battle. Again, you're free to disagree amigo. But that's just how I feel.

To reiterate, both Avengers movies hinge on them having to fight an army of disposable drones while stopping a Macguffin doomsday machine. The setting doesn't keep them from being"basically the same".

Feels like a double standard to me.

 

[Spider-Fan]

To reiterate, both Avengers movies hinge on them having to fight an army of disposable drones while stopping a Macguffin doomsday machine. The setting doesn't keep them from being"basically the same".

Feels like a double standard to me.

Is this triggering you or something? Like I said, it's my opinion. You can call it a double standard or whatever, I call it AoU entertained me and TDKR didn't. I am sorry of this offends you, but my opinion is unchanged. To me, AoU is a superior film. It's a film I rewatch and enjoy. I likely won't watch TDKR again unless my upcoming child likes superheroes when they're older and wants to one day. It's how I feel.

 

[Awest66]

Is this triggering you or something? Like I said, it's my opinion. You can call it a double standard or whatever, I call it AoU entertained me and TDKR didn't. I am sorry of this offends you, but my opinion is unchanged. To me, AoU is a superior film. It's a film I rewatch and enjoy. I likely won't watch TDKR again unless my upcoming child likes superheroes when they're older and wants to one day. It's how I feel.

Okay then. Sorry if I perturbed you, I can get a bit passionate about these things.

I think my biggest problem with Age of Ultron is that the titular character was such a letdown as both a villain and a character.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Oh no, man, my overall stance on TDKR has not really changed. I still think that it falls short compared to BB and TDK, but its not the dumpster fire you see some people accuse it of being. I still enjoy it a lot, and its a decent end to the Nolan trilogy. There's plenty for me to enjoy in it. All those debates we had back then about the necessity of bringing back the LOS and all that, those were good times, and I still stand by them.

I still believe had Heath not passed away we'd have gotten a different and probably better movie than we did. When Heath's sister said in that interview a couple of years ago that he was already planning on an encore performance with the Joker;

“He was so proud of what he had done in Batman. And I know he had plans for another Batman. He loved working with Chris Nolan and Christian Bale and Gary Oldman. He just had the best time ever doing that film."

Heath Ledger's sister recalls the late actor's excitement over returning to The Joker

I think he and Nolan did have some discussions about a possible direction for the third movie that involved Joker. But at the end of the day we got TDKR, and its still a solid movie, IMO, even though it falls short of its predecessors.

I absolutely loved TDKR, but I am still very curious as to what Jokers role in the 3rd film would have been. We can speculate all day i guess, but in the end, Im satisfied with what we got.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Ok so what is your criteria that tells you if a movie is good or not? Box office? TDKR made over a billion. Critical reaction? Its got 87% on RT and 78 on Metacritic (higher than any Avengers movie). Audience scores? Its got a 90% audience score on RT and an 8.2/10 on Metacritic (again higher than most Avengers movies).

You mentioned what some people in this thread think about TDKR, so you obviously put some stock into the opinions of a handful of people on this forum as criteria of a movie's quality for some inexplicable reason. So take a look at this thread; Your Top 10 CBMs of the Decade (So Far)

The majority of people listed TDKR as one of their top 10 CBM's of the decade. So I'm not sure what else there is that can indicate to you its a quality movie.

My opinion? The fact that I cringed a good number of times watching the movie? The same way I cringed a good number of times watching AOU? The same way I cringed a good number of times watching First Class?

For instance there are many more worse movies in the Foxverse X-men movies. The last thing I would expect to do watching a "quality" movie is to cringe from a bad make-up job, or scratch my head from a dumb plot point.

People really can't handle that others don't like one movie in their favourite trilogy...

 

[Sithborg]

Pretty certain I would have been banned for trolling if I kept espousing my opinion on Infinity War in the Avengers forum.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Agreed. I don't really care what metrics are brought to me about TDKR. I just didn't like it. For me, that's really the only opinion that matters in the end. Just like your own enjoyment of the movie is all that matters to fans of it at the end of the day. I am happy for anyone that liked or loved it. I just am not one of you. Which is okay!

 

[The Batman]

Absolutely, my friend. I couldn't agree more. I also still get chills at the scene of Bruce climbing out o the prison. just the idea of how Batman Begins started with Bruce falling and then he climbs out in TDKR is just fantastic symbolism.

Bruce climbing from the pit, his initial return as Batman, the sewer fight, Batman flying off with the nuke, finding out Bruce survived...I think all these moments are as good as the "big" moments of Endgame.

Honestly, people compare TDKR to AOU, but to me TDKR is better than AOU, and is as good as Endgame. Neither films are masterpieces, but are entertaining enough conclusions.

 

[Dede]

Both these franchises are amazing. I even like ultron probably more than most but I go with tdk trilogy. As it’s been said as well tdkr maybe be most flawed but it’s not the weakest from any consensus I can find. That tdkr critical reception is as good as the avengers best is pretty impressive as it’s audience reception.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Pretty certain I would have been banned for trolling if I kept espousing my opinion on Infinity War in the Avengers forum.

Just curious, who was this in response to?

Ok so what is your criteria that tells you if a movie is good or not? Box office? TDKR made over a billion. Critical reaction? Its got 87% on RT and 78 on Metacritic (higher than any Avengers movie). Audience scores? Its got a 90% audience score on RT and an 8.2/10 on Metacritic (again higher than most Avengers movies).

Ok let's lay it all out.

Box Office:
AOU: $1.4 Billion
TDKR: $1.08 Billion

Critical Reaction:
AOU Rottentomatoes: 75% Audience: 83
TDKR Rottentomatoes: 87% Audience: 90

AOU Metacritic: 66 Audience: 7.0
TDKR Metacritic: 78 Audience: 8.2

You mentioned what some people in this thread think about TDKR, so you obviously put some stock into the opinions of a handful of people on this forum as criteria of a movie's quality for some inexplicable reason. So take a look at this thread; Your Top 10 CBMs of the Decade (So Far)

The majority of people listed TDKR as one of their top 10 CBM's of the decade. So I'm not sure what else there is that can indicate to you its a quality movie.

I clicked on that link and looked thru the first few pages. Just as many people named AOU in their Top 10...

So where is your post defending Age of Ultron as a "quality movie?"

 

[The Joker]

My opinion? The fact that I cringed a good number of times watching the movie? The same way I cringed a good number of times watching AOU? The same way I cringed a good number of times watching First Class?

For instance there are many more worse movies in the Foxverse X-men movies. The last thing I would expect to do watching a "quality" movie is to cringe from a bad make-up job, or scratch my head from a dumb plot point.

So you're saying you decide on a movie's quality based on how much you cringe. Then why are you asking other people to showcase how good a movie is if this is how you decide?

People really can't handle that others don't like one movie in their favourite trilogy...

What has this got to do with what you're saying? You're the one who came in here challenging people to prove that a movie is good. Nobody else.

Ok let's lay it all out.

Box Office:
AOU: $1.4 Billion
TDKR: $1.08 Billion

Critical Reaction:
AOU Rottentomatoes: 75% Audience: 83
TDKR Rottentomatoes: 87% Audience: 90

AOU Metacritic: 66 Audience: 7.0
TDKR Metacritic: 78 Audience: 8.2

Right.....so based on these stats audiences like TDKR more. But you just said this doesn't matter to you. You apparently judge movies based on how much you cringe. So why are you listing these if none of this means anything to you for how good a movie is?

I clicked on that link and looked thru the first few pages. Just as many people named AOU in their Top 10...

So where is your post defending Age of Ultron as a "quality movie?"

I think you're little confused here. Lets clarify some things for you;

1. I brought that thread to your attention because you were the one putting so much stock into what people think about TDKR here. Since you were placing so much value in their opinions I gave you that thread to show there is plenty of love for TDKR here.

2. Why do I need to defend AOU. You were not talking about AOU. You were asking about TDKR.

 

[Dede]

All the films from the trilogy and quadrilogy are objectively good I’d say
Dark Knight rises 87% critics 90% audience 8.0 critics 4.36 audience 78 Metacritic 8.2 audience 8.4 IMDb
Batman Begins 84% critics 94% audience 7.7 critics 4.34 audience 70 Metacritic 8.6 audience 8.2 IMDb
Dark Knight 94% crtitcs 94% audience 8.6 critics 4.48 audience 84 Metacritic 8.9 audience 9.0 IMDb
These stats show that begins should be seen as the weakest which isn’t a bad thing

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Bruce climbing from the pit, his initial return as Batman, the sewer fight, Batman flying off with the nuke, finding out Bruce survived...I think all these moments are as good as the "big" moments of Endgame.

Honestly, people compare TDKR to AOU, but to me TDKR is better than AOU, and is as good as Endgame. Neither films are masterpieces, but are entertaining enough conclusions.

It's fun to see how different one can perceive things, which of course makes a discussion forum all that more relevant. For me a couple of the things you mention are what I relate to comedy in that film. Especially the sewer fight where Batman's and Bane's funny voices highlight each other when they have a conversation. It comes off as parodical to me, plus that the choreography is pretty poor and has some parts where they are visibly not even close to punching each other, which doesn't make it less funny.

I was thinking about whether it has to do with how much of a fan you are of something beforehand, as I've never been a huge Batman fan even though I liked him. That did however apart when I remembered that I never really had much opinion on Iron Man in either direction before the MCU. I wasn't a huge fan of Cap either.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

All the films from the trilogy and quadrilogy are objectively good I’d say
Dark Knight rises 87% critics 90% audience 8.0 critics 4.36 audience 78 Metacritic 8.2 audience 8.4 IMDb
Batman Begins 84% critics 94% audience 7.7 critics 4.34 audience 70 Metacritic 8.6 audience 8.2 IMDb
Dark Knight 94% crtitcs 94% audience 8.6 critics 4.48 audience 84 Metacritic 8.9 audience 9.0 IMDb
These stats show that begins should be seen as the weakest which isn’t a bad thing

There is no such thing as objectively good films. You cannot measure the quality of art, it's all about subjective experience in the end.

I'd say that all these seven films are widely liked, which your numbers help to show, but that's it.

 

[Erzengel]

I was thinking about whether it has to do with how much of a fan you are of something beforehand, as I've never been a huge Batman fan even though I liked him. That did however apart when I remembered that I never really had much opinion on Iron Man in either direction before the MCU. I wasn't a huge fan of Cap either.

I grew up in a time when the most popular characters were Batman, X-Men and Spider-Man. I did get into Morrison's Justice League but the Avengers were the furthest from my interest. I did start getting into them with Civil War despite the storyline and Cap was my favorite player in Marvel Ultimate Alliance. I've been watching like 99% of comic book movies (sans ones like Catwoman, Jonah Hex) so I showed up for Iron Man in 2008 and haven't gotten off since and Captain America became my new favorite CBM character.

It's evident here that people have their favorites and what they were drawn to but the Avengers and a lot of the MCU just bring me joy and are constant rewatches on tv.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Bruce climbing from the pit, his initial return as Batman, the sewer fight, Batman flying off with the nuke, finding out Bruce survived...I think all these moments are as good as the "big" moments of Endgame.

Honestly, people compare TDKR to AOU, but to me TDKR is better than AOU, and is as good as Endgame. Neither films are masterpieces, but are entertaining enough conclusions.

Agreed. All those moments are amazing, and as much as I really enjoyed Endgame and thought it was a fantastic conclusion, I honestly still prefer TDKR.

 

[Zarex]

I think my biggest problem with Age of Ultron is that the titular character was such a letdown as both a villain and a character.

I gotta lotta problems with AOU. The title villain is WAY underpowered and his motivations and goals don't make much sense. Ultron's tissue bot army is a huge disappointment, especially in comparison to the much more formidable Outriders in Infinity War. The romance between a veteran spy with lots of red on her ledger and a middle aged scientist appears to have been lifted from a CW TV show. And a speedster dies via bullet. Shot from a plane. Piloted by Ultron.

That being said, I like it much more than Rises.

 

[Herofan]

One thing that is nice, if obvious, about the Nolan Batman trilogy is that it is just 3 films compared to the Avengers films having a five-film prelude and at least 8 other tie-ins for an overarching series of at least 17 films.

 

[Timebomb]

Remember, people are allowed opinions.

Nolan made two god tier CBMs and if you would have asked me 2 years ago, I would have said the dark knight trilogy was the best with TDK being the best CBM ever. Then Infinity War cam along and boom. My new favorite CBM and after Endgame, the Avengers became my favorite film series. It doesn't mean I like TDK or BB any less, not at all. I just have new favorites. I am glad I am at a place where the next CBM film that comes out has the potential of being my new favorite CBM.

 

[Sithborg]

There is no such thing as objectively good films. You cannot measure the quality of art, it's all about subjective experience in the end.

I'd say that all these seven films are widely liked, which your numbers help to show, but that's it.

Ehh, I do think there are measures that can be objectively rated. Now, as someone who has questionable taste in what movies he likes, I am very much able to separate quality from what I enjoy. A lot of fanboys can't, which is why criticisms can provoke crazy responses.