Infinity War Avengers: Infinity War SPOILER User Review Thread - Part 2

[pr0xyt0xin]

I have a few comments.

I can only think of one MCU film without a cliffhanger ending: Iron Man 3. It seriously wraps up everything. But don't you see the problem? ALL of that resolution (tony removing the arc reactor and committing to pepper) is undone over the next few films.

Other than IM3, every other film is a cliffhanger ending. That's how marvel works.

Iron Man 1 ("I am Iron Man" WHAT ARE THE SOCIO POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THIS?? wait until IM2)
Iron Man 2 (You don't qualify to be an avenger, cliffhanger)
Thor (bifrost is broken, you'll never see her again! cliffhanger)
Avengers 1 (to challenge them is to court death, cliffhanger)
Thor 2 (giant monsters running around London, cliffhanger)
GotG (something good, something bad, bit of both? cliffhanger)
Winter Soldier (bucky saves cap and disappears, cliffhanger)
Avengers 2 (fine i'll do it myself, cliffhanger)
Civil War (avengers are torn apart, cliffhanger)
Doctor Strange (Mordo and Dormammu still at large, cliffhanger)

But lets compare Infinity War directly with Civil War. Because they end very similarly. The heroes lose. NO we don't expect the characters to stay dead, because we understand the MCU narrative style. NO we didn't expect the Avengers to stay broken up, for the same reason.

The movies are not made lesser, for having less "Stand alone" characteristics, they are just a completely different type of story telling. More akin to seasons of a great TV show than a traditional cinematic experience. And I talk about character arcs and plot resolution season to season on TV all the time.

 

[honestbharani]

How is there not this at the end? OMG HALF OF MARVEL DIED! Will they comeback? Will the Avengers fight back? This film could easily have said "Tune in next time. Same bat time, SAME BAT CHANNEL!!!" This my friend is a cliffhanger. For it to be a cliffhanger, it doesn't have to be finger nap and immediately roll credits. It's still a cliffhanger.

Lol, again, you are letting your meta senses get in the way of judging a movie on its own. I have buddies who have never watched a MCU movie who watched this one and when I asked them, if they never watch another MCU movie again, they are still satisfied that they saw a complete movie. Sure, the other movies helps you understand certain other plot points of the movie but for anyone who watched only this movie, and can make sense of the characters and their motivations in his own head (except Thanos who is well established here), this movie functions as a complete movie. And that is what I mean by a proper ending.


EDIT: Just because there is a sequel that continues the story, does not mean this movie and its story did not have an ending, right? A cliffhanger, as I pointed out earlier, is a situation that is left unresolved or in suspense. I honestly do not see how IW was that. Sure, there is room for the story to continue but like I said, if no other MCU movie was ever released after this, this still functions as an ending, a depressing one, but a proper ending nonetheless.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Lol, again, you are letting your meta senses get in the way of judging a movie on its own. I have buddies who have never watched a MCU movie who watched this one and when I asked them, if they never watch another MCU movie again, they are still satisfied that they saw a complete movie. Sure, the other movies helps you understand certain other plot points of the movie but for anyone who watched only this movie, and can make sense of the characters and their motivations in his own head (except Thanos who is well established here), this movie functions as a complete movie. And that is what I mean by a proper ending.


EDIT: Just because there is a sequel that continues the story, does not mean this movie and its story did not have an ending, right? A cliffhanger, as I pointed out earlier, is a situation that is left unresolved or in suspense. I honestly do not see how IW was that. Sure, there is room for the story to continue but like I said, if no other MCU movie was ever released after this, this still functions as an ending, a depressing one, but a proper ending nonetheless.

The core misunderstanding here is you think it didn't end on an unresolved plot, where I think it 100% did. You're not going to convince me. Meta senses have nothing to do with it. I already provided many examples of my larger point. If you disagree, that is fine. But way I see it, by every definition of a cliffhanger, this is a cliffhanger,

 

[spider-neil]

The core misunderstanding here is you think it didn't end on an unresolved plot, where I think it 100% did. You're not going to convince me. Meta senses have nothing to do with it. I already provided many examples of my larger point. If you disagree, that is fine. But way I see it, by every definition of a cliffhanger, this is a cliffhanger,

Would your opinion be different if the movie were called;
Thanos: Infinity Quest?

My opinion of Mad Max 4 would be different if the movie were called;
Furiosa: Fury Road
I thought Max was a passive character but he isn't the protagonist, not really.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Would your opinion be different if the movie were called;
Thanos: Infinity Quest?

My opinion of Mad Max 4 would be different if the movie were called;
Furiosa: Fury Road
I thought Max was a passive character but he isn't the protagonist, not really.

In Mad Max: Fury Road, the story arcs reach a logical conclusion and the story ends. It's not ending on a cliffhanger. Yeah I guess you can say "Oh where did Max go?" and such, but Max's arc in FR ended. Furiosa's ended. Etc. IW does not complete the arcs it establishes for 95% of the characters in the film. It only sees Thanos given any kind of closure, so no a title change would not change my mind.

 

[javonstokess]

In Mad Max: Fury Road, the story arcs reach a logical conclusion and the story ends. It's not ending on a cliffhanger. Yeah I guess you can say "Oh where did Max go?" and such, but Max's arc in FR ended. Furiosa's ended. Etc. IW does not complete the arcs it establishes for 95% of the characters in the film. It only sees Thanos given any kind of closure, so no a title change would not change my mind.

I kinda disagree with that. The main "leads" are Thanos, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Star-Lord, Gamora, Thor, Vision and Scarlet Witch. Pretty much everyone outside of that are "supporting".

Each one of them went through a specific arc that "ended" in that movie. The next movie will have different arcs for most of them. I agree that the movie ended in a cliffhanger, but in and of itself, it was a complete story.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I kinda disagree with that. The main "leads" are Thanos, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Star-Lord, Gamora, Thor, Vision and Scarlet Witch. Pretty much everyone outside of that are "supporting".

Each one of them went through a specific arc that "ended" in that movie. The next movie will have different arcs for most of them. I agree that the movie ended in a cliffhanger, but in and of itself, it was a complete story.

In the case of Iron Man & Thor, I don't agree their arcs ended. With the others, they all got axed, so theirs ended by default, LOL! But with Tony and Thor, they fail their missions yes. But, you don't see the true aftermath of their failure outside of momentary shock. Again, for me that is a pause, not a conclusion. The characters who did not disappear had pauses in their arcs. Like I said earlier, being in shock is not a conclusion. Being in shock doesn't tell me how the ending of the movie truly effected you as a character moving forward. It just maintains an aurora of suspense. Hence the feeling of in-completion.

 

[javonstokess]

In the case of Iron Man & Thor, I don't agree their arcs ended. With the others, they all got axed, so theirs ended by default, LOL! But with Tony and Thor, they fail their missions yes. But, you don't see the true aftermath of their failure outside of momentary shock. Again, for me that is a pause, not a conclusion. The characters who did not disappear had pauses in their arcs. Like I said earlier, being in shock is not a conclusion. Being in shock doesn't tell me how the ending of the movie truly effected you as a character moving forward. It just maintains an aurora of suspense. Hence the feeling of in-completion.

I disagree. Their arcs ended WHEN they failed. Thor, for example, was looking for a new weapon to avenge is people and kill Thanos...and he failed. You don't need to see the "aftermath" for the completion of an story arc.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I disagree. Their arcs ended WHEN they failed. Thor, for example, was looking for a new weapon to avenge is people and kill Thanos...and he failed. You don't need to see the "aftermath" for the completion of an story arc.

Yes you do. It's no different than in a more standard film when the hero fails in some regard and reaches his lowest point and has to regroup. If they don't face their failure, then how they face it becomes an unresolved plot element. How can a film be complete if the plot elements don't resolve? Answer is it can't.

 

[javonstokess]

Yes you do. It's no different than in a more standard film when the hero fails in some regard and reaches his lowest point and has to regroup. If they don't face their failure, then how they face it becomes an unresolved plot element. How can a film be complete if the plot elements don't resolve? Answer is it can't.

I think you're missing my point. The conflict resolved itself because Thanos WON, Thor lost.

The whole "It's Thanos movie" stems from that. It ended in the reverse of most of the Marvel movies. We saw Thanos' aftermath because he's the "protagonist" and everyone else are, thematically, considered antagonists.

For example, in Spider-Man: Homecoming, Spidey is the protagonist so we see the aftermath of his battle with Vulture in detail while Vulture's "aftermath" is only hinted at. IW was the reverse of that. Thanos got his victory and his "rest" (called out when speaking to Dr. Strange) and we got a hint of the Avengers/Guardians aftermath.

I understand you might not like or agree with that sentiment, but I'm almost certain that was the writers' plan.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think you're missing my point. The conflict resolved itself because Thanos WON, Thor lost.

The whole "It's Thanos movie" stems from that. It ended in the reverse of most of the Marvel movies. We saw Thanos' aftermath because he's the "protagonist" and everyone else are, thematically, considered antagonists.

For example, in Spider-Man: Homecoming, Spidey is the protagonist so we see the aftermath of his battle with Vulture in detail while Vulture's "aftermath" is only hinted at. IW was the reverse of that. Thanos got his victory and his "rest" (called out when speaking to Dr. Strange) and we got a hint of the Avengers/Guardians aftermath.

I understand you might not like or agree with that sentiment, but I'm almost certain that was the writers' plan.

I think the writer's approached it the only way they could. Again, I am not saying it is a flaw with IW. I am just saying the film itself cannot be considered a complete film. That's not a flaw. It's just a statement of what it is.

As for your Vulture example, my counter to that is his fate is built up in other threads in the Homecoming plot (Liz moving for example) get more development and clarity. So the plot addresses where he is as a character more. He isn't just in a fog because he lost.

 

[honestbharani]

The core misunderstanding here is you think it didn't end on an unresolved plot, where I think it 100% did. You're not going to convince me. Meta senses have nothing to do with it. I already provided many examples of my larger point. If you disagree, that is fine. But way I see it, by every definition of a cliffhanger, this is a cliffhanger,

Lol... I don't think there has been any misunderstanding between us on either of our viewpoints.

I am not even trying to convince you here. If you feel the fact that they end the movie with room for the story to continue means its a part 1-part 2 situation, that is your prerogative. I feel as long as a particular story is started and ended within the same movie, that is a complete movie, irrespective of the number of sequel hooks and potential continuation points the story may leave.

But this discussion is not even about that. I just pointed out that the way this movie ended was definitely not a cliff hanger and I hate to be literal about it but a cliffhanger literally means a guy hanging off a cliff and you have no idea if he is gonna make it up or fall down. Nothing of that sort happened at the end of this movie. As I said,

Spoiler

if this movie ended as soon as Thanos snapped his fingers

, THAT would have been a cliffhanger. Over here, the movie just ended with a story completed. Now you see that as part 1, I see that as a complete movie. Either way, I just don't see any reason how the ending can be considered a cliffhanger.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Lol... I don't think there has been any misunderstanding between us on either of our viewpoints.

I am not even trying to convince you here. If you feel the fact that they end the movie with room for the story to continue means its a part 1-part 2 situation, that is your prerogative. I feel as long as a particular story is started and ended within the same movie, that is a complete movie, irrespective of the number of sequel hooks and potential continuation points the story may leave.

But this discussion is not even about that. I just pointed out that the way this movie ended was definitely not a cliff hanger and I hate to be literal about it but a cliffhanger literally means a guy hanging off a cliff and you have no idea if he is gonna make it up or fall down. Nothing of that sort happened at the end of this movie. As I said, if this movie ended as soon as Thanos snapped his fingers, THAT would have been a cliffhanger. Over here, the movie just ended with a story completed. Now you see that as part 1, I see that as a complete movie. Either way, I just don't see any reason how the ending can be considered a cliffhanger.

Just cutting away before the action is not the only way to do a cliffhanger. Spoiler for Game of Thrones seasons 5 in the blackout: [blackout]At the end of the season, Jon Snow is stabbed and dies. They don't cut away before he dies or anything, he just bleeds out and is conclusively dead. This is also a cliffhanger as Jon Snow was a main character in the show. Now you are asking is he coming back or is he dead forever for an entire year. That is the type of cliffhanger they did here. Thanos eliminates half the universe, and the movie ends. It's the exact same type of cliffhanger. Fading to black before something happens is not the only method of doing a cliffhanger.[/blackout]

 

[honestbharani]

Just cutting away before the action is not the only way to do a cliffhanger. Spoiler for Game of Thrones seasons 5 in the blackout: [blackout]At the end of the season, Jon Snow is stabbed and dies. They don't cut away before he dies or anything, he just bleeds out and is conclusively dead. This is also a cliffhanger as Jon Snow was a main character in the show. Now you are asking is he coming back or is he dead forever for an entire year. That is the type of cliffhanger they did here. Thanos eliminates half the universe, and the movie ends. It's the exact same type of cliffhanger. Fading to black before something happens is not the only method of doing a cliffhanger.[/blackout]

I am not a GoT fan and I have hardly ever watched a full episode, but the missus is and I have to listen to a LOT of the stories anyways. But from my extremely limited knowledge of GoT, I presume

Spoiler

Jon Snow is like THE main character of the story but killing him off alone does not end the story. There are other characters like the Dragon Lady who are still around to continue the fight? In here, Thanos' is not a bad guy for "reasons", he has a specific purpose, he achieves it and then retires quietly to a far off land.

If THAT is not an end, what is?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am not a GoT fan and I have hardly ever watched a full episode, but the missus is and I have to listen to a LOT of the stories anyways. But from my extremely limited knowledge of GoT, I presume

Spoiler

Jon Snow is like THE main character of the story but killing him off alone does not end the story. There are other characters like the Dragon Lady who are still around to continue the fight? In here, Thanos' is not a bad guy for "reasons", he has a specific purpose, he achieves it and then retires quietly to a far off land.

If THAT is not an end, what is?

[BLACKOUT]Jon Snow is a main character, but not the only one.[/blackout]

I don't see Thanos retiring to a farm as an ending, nor do I think the movie really means it to be. The movie ends purposely on a moment of shock to keep you engaged for a year until new and shiny Avengers 4 completes the story. You may see it as an ending, but I see it being closer to a mid point in a book.

 

[javonstokess]

I think the writer's approached it the only way they could. Again, I am not saying it is a flaw with IW. I am just saying the film itself cannot be considered a complete film. That's not a flaw. It's just a statement of what it is.

As for your Vulture example, my counter to that is his fate is built up in other threads in the Homecoming plot (Liz moving for example) get more development and clarity. So the plot addresses where he is as a character more. He isn't just in a fog because he lost.

I think the difference is that there IS a sequel coming that continues the Avengers storyline.

IMO, IW is a complete story in the same fashion that you could watch Back to the Future 2 and be fine with it by itself, but it clearly has a cliffhanger.

I'm more talking about completion of story arcs and that was successfully done by the writers/directors. The movie CLEARLY is meant to be part one of two, but that's just because we know future movies are coming.

 

[Silvermoon]

I'm going to pop in and agree with Spider-Fan on this... I'd definitely say this ended as a cliffhanger (what with the villain winning, the heroes losing/separated/broken and more than half of them turned to dust). And most people I know (both fans of the MCU as well as coworkers that haven't really followed the MCU) pretty much agree in the conversations that have been held in the work place for the past several weeks - with those not familiar with the MCU asking questions along the lines of "There's got to be another one coming out after this, right?" to those of us that do follow the MCU (see, I can provide anecdotal evidence too ). All of us feeling that we were left hanging wondering how the heck the heroes can come back from this - or even *if* they can fully come back from it.

 

[javonstokess]

I'm going to pop in and agree with Spider-Fan on this... I'd definitely say this ended as a cliffhanger (what with the villain winning, the heroes losing/separated/broken and more than half of them turned to dust). And most people I know (both fans of the MCU as well as coworkers that haven't really followed the MCU) pretty much agree in the conversations that have been held in the work place for the past several weeks - with those not familiar with the MCU asking questions along the lines of "There's got to be another one coming out after this, right?" to those of us that do follow the MCU (see, I can provide anecdotal evidence too ). All of us feeling that we were left hanging wondering how the heck the heroes can come back from this - or even *if* they can fully come back from it.

For me at least, I agree that it ended on a cliffhanger. My part in this discussion is the notion that story arcs weren't "Completed". That is something I dispute.

 

[honestbharani]

[BLACKOUT]Jon Snow is a main character, but not the only one.[/blackout]

I don't see Thanos retiring to a farm as an ending, nor do I think the movie really means it to be. The movie ends purposely on a moment of shock to keep you engaged for a year until new and shiny Avengers 4 completes the story. You may see it as an ending, but I see it being closer to a mid point in a book.

Well, about Jon Snow, isn't that what I said?

And I already said I am ok with your opinion that the story was not complete but I am just saying it still does not equal a cliffhanger coz to me, that is a scene or a situation left in limbo and you are basically guessing what happens next. Here, the story did end and I just don't think a sequel hook is the same as a cliffhanger.

An example to those who watch WWE - Vince McMahon was revealed as the higher power on RAW few years back during the attitude era. On one episode, only Austin saw who the higher power was and gave a reaction - THAT was a cliff hanger. Next week's RAW started with the reveal to the whole world of who the higher power was. It won't have been a cliff hanger if the whole world saw it was McMahon during that previous episode but there was obvious storyline left to be picked up such as - how will Austin react? How will other superstars react? etc etc.

I think the difference is that there IS a sequel coming that continues the Avengers storyline.

IMO, IW is a complete story in the same fashion that you could watch Back to the Future 2 and be fine with it by itself, but it clearly has a cliffhanger.

I'm more talking about completion of story arcs and that was successfully done by the writers/directors. The movie CLEARLY is meant to be part one of two, but that's just because we know future movies are coming.

Again, if a story is completely told in a movie, even if it ends with obvious sequel hooks, they do not become cliffhangers to me.

I'm going to pop in and agree with Spider-Fan on this... I'd definitely say this ended as a cliffhanger (what with the villain winning, the heroes losing/separated/broken and more than half of them turned to dust). And most people I know (both fans of the MCU as well as coworkers that haven't really followed the MCU) pretty much agree in the conversations that have been held in the work place for the past several weeks - with those not familiar with the MCU asking questions along the lines of "There's got to be another one coming out after this, right?" to those of us that do follow the MCU (see, I can provide anecdotal evidence too ). All of us feeling that we were left hanging wondering how the heck the heroes can come back from this - or even *if* they can fully come back from it.

Anecdotal evidence was just to show that a number of folks (and I have watched it 5 times now, each with virgin MCU viewer(s)) thought the ending itself was novel even if they did not know another movie was coming. Again, sequel hooks and cliffhangers are not the same thing to me.

For me at least, I agree that it ended on a cliffhanger. My part in this discussion is the notion that story arcs weren't "Completed". That is something I dispute.

To me, its very simple. A cliffhanger by definition is not a completed story. IW was a completed story and therefore not a cliffhanger, to me. Even though it creates a sense of urgency and very obvious sequel hook, the story itself ends within the movie and that means it was a completed story and hence, not a cliffhanger.

 

[javonstokess]

To me, its very simple. A cliffhanger by definition is not a completed story. IW was a completed story and therefore not a cliffhanger, to me. Even though it creates a sense of urgency and very obvious sequel hook, the story itself ends within the movie and that means it was a completed story and hence, not a cliffhanger.

Sorry bruh. You KNOW that Thanos gambit of killing half the universe isn't going to stick, you are wondering how it will be reversed AND you know that Avengers 4 is around the bend.

It was a complete movie with a cliffhanger ending.

End of story.

 

[Silvermoon]

honestbharani you keep using the term 'sequel hook' the sequel hook trope tends to be when *minor* plot threads are left hanging... leaving the *possibility* of a sequel (or a new season, if we're talking tv) happening. I'm sorry, but the villain winning, the heroes failing and being so utterly broken with more than half of them turned to dust is not some *minor* plot thread that's been left hanging. It's pretty dang MAJOR. Ergo, cliffhanger... not just a mere "sequel hook"

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm going to pop in and agree with Spider-Fan on this... I'd definitely say this ended as a cliffhanger (what with the villain winning, the heroes losing/separated/broken and more than half of them turned to dust). And most people I know (both fans of the MCU as well as coworkers that haven't really followed the MCU) pretty much agree in the conversations that have been held in the work place for the past several weeks - with those not familiar with the MCU asking questions along the lines of "There's got to be another one coming out after this, right?" to those of us that do follow the MCU (see, I can provide anecdotal evidence too ). All of us feeling that we were left hanging wondering how the heck the heroes can come back from this - or even *if* they can fully come back from it.

honestbharani you keep using the term 'sequel hook' the sequel hook trope tends to be when *minor* plot threads are left hanging... leaving the *possibility* of a sequel (or a new season, if we're talking tv) happening. I'm sorry, but the villain winning, the heroes failing and being so utterly broken with more than half of them turned to dust is not some *minor* plot thread that's been left hanging. It's pretty dang MAJOR. Ergo, cliffhanger... not just a mere "sequel hook"

Someone who gets it!!!!

 

[honestbharani]

Well, time to call a truce then. I still don't think it qualifies as a cliffhanger simply because to me, that term has a certain meaning and I always associate it with something like this:

[YT]7vYRHwk-gyk[/YT]



Bit of context: The story of that movie was if the lead character would enter the political field and form his own party or not. As you can see in the last scene, the guy who gets shot is an honest politician, the last one left. And since he is shot, the protagonist decides that he will not go the spiritual route and instead enter the political one. But the movie stops there, it does not show you if he actually starts a party, contests the elections etc etc. So that in my book qualifies as a cliffhanger, while IW does not as it obviously ends the story that it began within that movie.


Anyways, we have pretty much been only discussing semantics, so I am happy to put a period on this discussion now.

Its good when a movie generates a lot of discussion but in a good way, shows how good IW was, I guess.

 

[Zyraquis]

FWIW I see your perspective. The story it wanted to tell, the movie has told it. A comeback in the next movie is another story, I would be completely fine not seeing it and be satisfied Thanos completed his mission and retired in an idyllic village afterward; it is his story. I can see why the majority disagrees but that’s what I personally get from the movie too.

 

[Silvermoon]

As I was talking to my sister about this yesterday, the conversation reminded us of a blog post that writer Chuck Wendig posted about Infinity War shortly after it came out. I won't link to it directly (because he's not afraid to drop f-bombs and the like). But (if you have no issues with swearing and what not) just search for his blog and his entry "We Need to Talk About Avengers: Infinity War". He basically talks about how the fact that the movie really doesn't have a denouement is why it felt like so much more of a cliffhanger and why everyone walked out of the theater just feeling like....crap.