Avengers the Initiative

Apparently being white is a problem?

Haha clearly. Only thing worse than a white Patriot is dating a white woman. Something I'd never do btw :p

Him being white is unimportant; ignore it if you will. He just looked like another Patriot. Sorry for the confusion Mademoiselle
 
I really don't think he's corrupt at all. He certainly is manipulative and untrustworthy, but he seems like a man who, at his core, is dedicated to his job and to protecting his country.

By corrupt, I mean that Henry walks over the Constitution and United States legal system along with people's lives in order to do what he thinks is best for the nation. He's sort of the bureaucrat version of the hero on 24.
 
By corrupt, I mean that Henry walks over the Constitution and United States legal system along with people's lives in order to do what he thinks is best for the nation. He's sort of the bureaucrat version of the hero on 24.

Corruption implies that he takes bribes or otherwise bends or breaks the law for his own personal gain. That's not what Gyrich does. Also, I don't think Gyrich breaks the law as much as you say. I always remember him being highly manipulative and untrustworthy, but within the system.
 
He actually was a pretty nice guy during John's run on Avengers. Still a *****e, but, still a relatively good guy.
 
I suppose you're right. A better term for Gyrich would be unscrupulous. Just this issue, we see him covering up a teen's death for personal gain. Previously, he was involved in Project: Wideawake which is unconstitutional by any stretch of the imagination plus Operation: Zero Tolerance. Then he's the guy who strips Captain America of his identity.

He also attempts to hunt Hawkeye down like a dog because of the whole Thunderbolts thing.
 
I really need this book. At first, I was gonna stay away for it because it didn't make sense to me, but I'll give it a try.
 
Psshh. Didn't you hear? Hunting down heroes like dogs is the most patriotic thing you could be doing these days, right behind the assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Okay so let me make sure I'm understanding this right, 'cause I didn't quite read the issue so clearly. The point of the Initiative is to train young superhumans to react appropriately in traumatic situations. Thusly, they place Arsenal in an extremely traumatic (duh) situation with barely any training whatsoever, and...are shocked and angered when she reacts inappropriately? Is that about right? Oh, that and the fact that they apparently conducted this within full lethal range of other students without nary a thought of protecting them whatsoever?

So Arsenal gets her toys taken away. Maybe that was for the best. So what happens when someone whose powers are innate or physical fails their little tests? What if someone like Wiccan or another mutant or radioactive-spider-bitten kid also reacts badly when faced with their single worst fears? What, do they get gagged for the rest of their life? Have their powers removed by exploratory surgery, if it's even possible? Get their arms and legs chopped off? What? I'm just trying to understand this.
 
Well, I believe that's what they plan on doing. Removing the powers if they can, or just putting them in 42 for the rest of their days.
 
I think it's just how they planned their training curriculum. You know? for motivational purposes. Fail a test, lose a limb.

It just so happened that the results were Armory was no longer superhuman and thus no longer qualified for training.
 
Right, Armory. I don't know why I said Arsenal. It's her fault. *points over there*
 
You ever think that they purposely acted hastily in throwing her out b/c they just wanted to take her weapon. They did seem a bit too interested in it.
 
Haha clearly. Only thing worse than a white Patriot is dating a white woman. Something I'd never do btw :p

Him being white is unimportant; ignore it if you will. He just looked like another Patriot. Sorry for the confusion Mademoiselle

It was a joke. O.o

Psshh. Didn't you hear? Hunting down heroes like dogs is the most patriotic thing you could be doing these days, right behind the assassination of foreign dignitaries.

Okay so let me make sure I'm understanding this right, 'cause I didn't quite read the issue so clearly. The point of the Initiative is to train young superhumans to react appropriately in traumatic situations. Thusly, they place Arsenal in an extremely traumatic (duh) situation with barely any training whatsoever, and...are shocked and angered when she reacts inappropriately? Is that about right? Oh, that and the fact that they apparently conducted this within full lethal range of other students without nary a thought of protecting them whatsoever?

So Arsenal gets her toys taken away. Maybe that was for the best. So what happens when someone whose powers are innate or physical fails their little tests? What if someone like Wiccan or another mutant or radioactive-spider-bitten kid also reacts badly when faced with their single worst fears? What, do they get gagged for the rest of their life? Have their powers removed by exploratory surgery, if it's even possible? Get their arms and legs chopped off? What? I'm just trying to understand this.
Almost there....almost there....wait, no.

The Registration Act wasn't nearly about the way you make it out to be. Sure, you can THINK of it that way, but I can go backward and think killing people is just fine because it decreases the demands on planetary resources. But whatever, at this point, I doubt minds will be changed.

We'll say you placed it out of context when you say they intentionally placed Armory into a situation of extreme duress and were suprised when she reacted that way. UNLESS you meant they didn't know she was in a situation of extreme duress, and were more suprised by the entire situation, over her just freaking out because Trauma asked to have someone down there, and she was already down there. But hey, you said you didn't read the issue clearly, so it's forgivable. What's slightly less forgivable is the question that must be asked, "If they never place her in a stressful situation, period the end, when?" Because if they don't, they'll never let her pass, or any member, they'll just remain in school limbo. What I'm suprised about is you feel it was for the best she had her powers taken away because the government felt she wasn't psychologically capable enough to handle them. I totally pegged you as being against that.

However, you're slightly jumping to consequences when you say they just gag them or something. Because if they were REALLY that bad, they'd 42 Armory so she doesn't go out and talk about the "unspeakable evil and demonic rituals" that the government is apparently compromised of due to the Registration Act. The more likely result is they're told, "Guess what? You're not fit to use your powers, but since they're a part of you, there's not much we can do. Use them, and guarantee your ass finds itself in prison. We'll be watching you. You know, like how cops are suppossed to watch sex offenders and the like."
I think it's just how they planned their training curriculum. You know? for motivational purposes. Fail a test, lose a limb.

It just so happened that the results were Armory was no longer superhuman and thus no longer qualified for training.

She didn't lose her limb. And I don't think only superpowered humans were qualified, because MVP was allegedly unpowered. While I doubt the registration is open to just ANYBODY, he was unpowered, and so it stands to reason that not all their registrants were empowered. Though it's safe to assume the vast majority are.
 
So, is this series going to be constantly introducing new characters, or is it going to be focusing on the ones introduced is issue #1?
 
The gag was referring to Wiccan, as it's the easiest way to remove his powers. I don't think they're too concerned about what a bunch of teenagers might say about the government, particularly ones who have been branded drop-outs in the first place. Though, lo and behold, they still manage to "conceal things" from the students that are still in the camp. A kid dies from a blast through the head and no one gets to hear about it 'cause, of course, it might give the impression that these guys don't actually have everything in control. Gee, wonder why anyone would think that.

As opposed to the alternatives of shooting her in the face or placing her in prison forever? I'd go for forcibly removing Armory's powers, yes. I never once claimed that superheroes who actually did screw up shouldn't be held accountable for screwing up. And whatever might be said about the situation, Armory did screw up. She's not entirely to blame, but hardly free of fault, either. No one's accusing her of murdering someone, but it's fairly clear that she's far from capable of truly controlling that weapon of hers. Is that reason enough to take it from her? Arguable. But not unprecedented. And, really, I think my mindset is a bit reinforced by her reckless, thrill-seeking attitude in the first place. It's an attitude that would have gotten someone killed at some point anyway. It's also an attitude that could possibly have been trained out of her, but at the moment...well, more on that later.

And frankly, it's not as if they amputated her arm or something; they just removed her equipment. She could still help the world in other ways without a Mega Death Gun of Machine Death. Hence, though, my question of what they would do if they actually did need to remove someone's arm to contain his or her powers as not all of their drop-outs are going to be as easy to neuter as Armory.

And finally, I also said maybe it's for the best. I don't know if it actually is for the best.

My whole original point was that Gauntlet and Hank and the other adults seem to be pretty quick to point fingers at Armory and declare her the wild threat in this, and pretty damn slow to look at their own accountability for this mess. So a kid screws up and hurts people with her powers. Okay. But isn't that what they expected to happen? Isn't that what this place was built for in the first place? Isn't it their jobs to make sure it doesn't happen? So when accidents like this actually happen, does it say more about the kid or about their inability to train the kid? They knew and we knew that superpowered teens are dangerous. That was never in doubt, or at least it shouldn't have been. The only real question here was whether or not the adults in question would be able to "housebreak" these kids. Signs so far? Point to no.

(Signs are also ambiguous as to whether or not housebreaking these kids is their real priority at all or if they just want to filch these superpowers for their own political uses. But that's another issue.)

Speaking of the training...I gotta ask, what training? Their whole original complaint was that kids who aren't trained will make mistakes in bad situations. So they don't train this kid Armory, immediately place her in a bad situation mere hours after primary assessment and...what? Never once accounted for the fact that she's gonna make a big mistake? But...hello, big smart army science people, remember the part where she's untrained? I never suggested that these kids should never fight any real battles during their stay -- which I'd assume is reasonably lengthy and not just a week or a month or so -- but you're telling me that to place them all in a direct combat situation without any training whatsoever on the first day is smart now? She "washed out?" She was intentionally placed in a room with the worst fear of her life! So that means she's just never cut out to be a hero or something and fail their Big Important Test forever and gets kicked out and gets all the blame for the headless boy lying on the floor? Why is being untrained considered "washing out" when the default assumption is that these kids aren't trained in the first place? Isn't the whole point that these kids need to stay in the Initiative because they need the training?

They treat the kids like walking time bombs. So why are they surprised when one goes off? And on that note, four other trainees were just...what? Just standing in the exact same room with utterly no means of protection whatsoever? And apparently they weren't even remotely briefed on the abilities of their peers and what dangers they could present to each other? What if one of them had fire powers and another had gas powers?...which, lo and behold, was pretty much exactly what happened! Fire and gas mixed, and sht blew up. I thought the whole point was "safety first." The pro-regs made the biggest fuss in the world about proper procedure and regulation and training...and a kid gets his face blown off on the very first day of this great operation through a combination of stupid mistakes made by a variety of people, including those who were supposed to be implementing proper procedure and regulation and training in the first place. Yeah, hardly the shiny happy picture of law and order that was promised to the voting public, is it?
 
So no one else sees the similarities between Hardball and the Masked Marvel?
 
So, is this series going to be constantly introducing new characters, or is it going to be focusing on the ones introduced is issue #1?

I think each issue will include some of the Fifty State folk but mostly these are our perspective characters.
 
BW: I think you and I are on the same page. The Initiative's off to a pretty bad start if the vaunted Avengers and uber-experienced superheroes who are supposed to be training the newbs can overlook something so obvious. They catalog the newbs' powers right when they bring them in (I think, otherwise that's a whole other can of worms), so they must have known about Trauma's power, yet they still somehow saw fit to put Armory in there with him to be exposed to her greatest fear. Brilliant thinking on their part.

Don't even get me started on the cover-up, either. Wasn't accountability after Stamford one of Stark's arguments for the registration in the first place? Nice to see his followers living up to that. :o
 
Are you saying they should have put somebody less "dangerous" in with Trauma?

I still think this was just a ploy to get her arm-gun-thing away from her and kick her out.
 
Yeah. Like Gyrich or some other normal person. Not someone who just demonstrated her ability to blanket a room with laser blasts.

If it was all a ploy to get Armory's weapon, the Initiative's off to a worse start than I thought. I was hoping that the overtly Machiavellian nature of the pro-registrationites would be toned down after they won the war, but if they're now placing people in danger to acquire weaponry from their own, that hope would seem to have been dashed somewhere along the way.
 
Yeah. Like Gyrich or some other normal person. Not someone who just demonstrated her ability to blanket a room with laser blasts.

If it was all a ploy to get Armory's weapon, the Initiative's off to a worse start than I thought. I was hoping that the overtly Machiavellian nature of the pro-registrationites would be toned down after they won the war, but if they're now placing people in danger to acquire weaponry from their own, that hope would seem to have been dashed somewhere along the way.

I didn't see it as a ploy, I think it was plain convenience that Trauma's powers sent her into a panic attack and she started to blast everything into ****. I don't think they could have known she had a phobia, they weren't even sure about how Trauma's powers worked either.

I think it was the right thing to do to cover it up, because if the public had learnt about a death in the camp they are sending their children to train to stop deaths happening they wouldn't be so approving of Camp Hammond. Presumably they would leave it for a while and then say he died in the field or something, or went missing.

I'm still intrigued about what that doctor had to tell Pym.
 
They sure didn't seem to know how his powers worked, which is weird. Suppose his power was to kill everybody in the room? Whoops.
 
Shouldn't they have been sure of how Trauma's powers worked? I get that that last scene was basically the brass testing the newbies' powers and all, but shouldn't they have had some basic idea of Trauma's powers--at least enough to know they're based on major fears? They certainly seemed to know a lot about Armory's weaponry while she was undergoing her test in the training room. And, really, if they have absolutely no clue about how these kids' powers work before they put them in a populated training room, they're guilty of gross negligence and utter stupidity anyway, which still makes them no better than the New Warriors they claim to be training these kids to avoid becoming.

I get what the cover-up was for, but that still doesn't make it right. We're seeing something very similar in real life right now with the friendly-fire deaths of soldiers in Iraq where the government kinda, sorta neglected to mention the friendly fire part. It's coming back to bite the government in the ass now and throwing public opinion of the government even more in the ****ter. I have a feeling something similar will happen to the Initiative.
 
Shouldn't they have been sure of how Trauma's powers worked? I get that that last scene was basically the brass testing the newbies' powers and all, but shouldn't they have had some basic idea of Trauma's powers--at least enough to know they're based on major fears? They certainly seemed to know a lot about Armory's weaponry while she was undergoing her test in the training room. And, really, if they have absolutely no clue about how these kids' powers work before they put them in a populated training room, they're guilty of gross negligence and utter stupidity anyway, which still makes them no better than the New Warriors they claim to be training these kids to avoid becoming.

I get what the cover-up was for, but that still doesn't make it right. We're seeing something very similar in real life right now with the friendly-fire deaths of soldiers in Iraq where the government kinda, sorta neglected to mention the friendly fire part. It's coming back to bite the government in the ass now and throwing public opinion of the government even more in the ****ter. I have a feeling something similar will happen to the Initiative.

Well, I think they knew what each member's powers were but not exactly how they worked; hence sending them to the battle simulator to observe how it in action. I am unsure as to whether if they had sent somebody else in there with Trauma who only had a minor fear (not a phobia) if it would have ended up the same. They may have known it worked upon fear but did not expect Armory to react in the way that she did.

This has a very New X-Men feel to it, hopefully they don't have to kill off 90% of the characters before settling though.
 
See, this is why I'd rather the gov't be dastardly in trying to steal Armory's power rather than have them be stupid and negligent.
 
See, this is why I'd rather the gov't be dastardly in trying to steal Armory's power rather than have them be stupid and negligent.

I'm reminded of a comment that my friend had

"Before, you could have the government be incompetent like on the A-team or you could have them be evil like the X-files. Nowadays, the government is both."
 

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