Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event - Part 1

[Franklin Richards]

How will the Thing face that? Simple. He never gives up.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Spider-Man and Captain America don't give up either, but that doesn't mean that they can defeat enemies like the Hulk or Colossus. Given that a powered up Thing got the stuffing knocked out of him by a weaker grey Hulk, there's no way he can take on Red Hulk or anyone strong enough to beat Red Hulk.

 

[Anubis]

Really...when? I'm going have to look that one up, I was not aware of that.

I believe that's what happened in that whole 8th Day thing.

Also, Colossus taking a dive to save innocents? Cytorrack will not like it. Might take his powers away, or a portion of it.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Spider-Man and Captain America don't give up either, but that doesn't mean that they can defeat enemies like the Hulk or Colossus. Given that a powered up Thing got the stuffing knocked out of him by a weaker grey Hulk, there's no way he can take on Red Hulk or anyone strong enough to beat Red Hulk.

You leave out the part where Ben defeated Grey Hulk, then got attacked by a Doombot Green Hulk while Grey Hulk rested up and planned out his strategy. Then immediately after Ben destroyed the Green Hulkbot, the Grey Hulk ambushed him and lured him into the water where he used the Hindlick Maneuver on his already exhausted ass and then finally Ben was knocked out.

If you want to call Ben out for the other times the Hulk has defeated him then fine. But don't pull that lame instance out as an example.

Also... Spider-man HAS defeated Juggernaut. I don't know about Cap but I'd still put my money on Cap figuring out a way to take him down. That whole helmet weakness comes to mind. One little SHIELD gadget at the base of his skull ought to do it.

Also... did you know that someone actually stopped Juggernaut from moving forward? Guess who it was?

Ben don't quit. Especially when he's getting his ass kicked. And he usually finds a way to win. Maybe not the Strongest One There Is Contest but in the end.

Ben wins.

 

[Captain Marvel]

If you want to call Ben out for the other times the Hulk has defeated him then fine. But don't pull that lame instance out as an example.

It was a valid example as he still lost. He got tired and lost. But yeah, you're right, he's lost every single other fight with the Hulk he's ever had, that one no expception.

Also... Spider-man HAS defeated Juggernaut.

Wasn't that with the Captain Universe powers? He certainly never beat him in a straight out fight. The only thing I remember is Juggernaut splitting his powers in half with Black Tom Cassidy while fighting Spider-Man.

I don't know about Cap but I'd still put my money on Cap figuring out a way to take him down. That whole helmet weakness comes to mind. One little SHIELD gadget at the base of his skull ought to do it.

Cap taking the helmet off wouldn't do squat for him unless he spontaneously developed massive telepathic powers at the same time. The whole point of taking the helmet off is to hit him with a telepathic assault, which is the Juggernaut's only weakness.

Also... did you know that someone actually stopped Juggernaut from moving forward? Guess who it was?

We're not talking a tripping contest, but an actual bare knuckled brawl. And Colossus with the Juggernaut's powers added to his own is a far greater threat than the original Juggernaut. Look at it this way:

- Thing is weaker than Hulk.
- Hulk is weaker than Red Hulk.
- If Red Hulk gets beat by Colossus/Juggernaut, then there's no way that Thing can take him. Seriously, there is no superhero in the Marvel Universe who gives up. None of them give up. That doesn't mean anything, though, because a good chunk of them would still get the tar beaten out of them by Juggernaut, the Hulk, Colossus, etc. Nevermind Colossus with all the Juggernaut's strength added to his own.

Ben don't quit. Especially when he's getting his ass kicked. And he usually finds a way to win. Maybe not the Strongest One There Is Contest but in the end.

Ben wins.

Except when he's fighting someone stronger than him, like the Hulk. Then he gets his ass kicked all over town. Even when he's fighting someone weaker than him, like Grey Hulk, he still gets his ass kicked all over town.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Quick Addendum: That screenshot you posted proved my point, as the Thing got the tar beaten out of him in seconds by the Juggernaut. All he succeeded in doing was grabbing Juggernaut's ankle and tripping him, that's it. And you cite that as evidence that he'd come out on top against someone with the powers of both Colossus AND the Juggernaut?

The Thing said it himself right in that screenshot you posted.

"Hey... why'd Juggy stop? He could'a got back up an' I couldn't'a lifted another finger--!"

The reason the Juggernaut didn't get back up and beat the Thing to death was because of whatever else was going on there with the Beyonder and Mephisto, not because the Thing won the fight, which he most clearly didn't, and which the Thing himself admits to.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Look at it this way.

- Doom defeated The Beyonder
- Thing defeated Doom
- Beyonder greater than Colossus. Thing wins.


See how ridiculous that sort of logic is?

Technically Ben has defeated the Hulk once. In Vegas. But we're not talking about The Hulk. We're talking about Juggernaut.

Spider-man didn't have the Captain Universe power when he kicked Juggy's ass. He tricked him. Wanna know how? By burying him in concrete.

CONCRETE!!!

As for the Cap thing.. What do you think the SHIELD gadget I said is for? No helmet. No protection.


The Thing doesn't have to be stronger than Juggernaut. He's just got to figure out a way to win. If strength determined the outcome of fights, then Galactus would have eaten the Earth a long time ago.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Quick Addendum: That screenshot you posted proved my point, as the Thing got the tar beaten out of him in seconds by the Juggernaut. All he succeeded in doing was grabbing Juggernaut's ankle and tripping him, that's it. And you cite that as evidence that he'd come out on top against someone with the powers of both Colossus AND the Juggernaut?

The Thing said it himself right in that screenshot you posted.

"Hey... why'd Juggy stop? He could'a got back up an' I couldn't'a lifted another finger--!"

The reason the Juggernaut didn't get back up and beat the Thing to death was because of whatever else was going on there with the Beyonder and Mephisto, not because the Thing won the fight, which he most clearly didn't, and which the Thing himself admits to.

This isn't a video game. This is a narrative. Circumstances matter.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Galactus didn't eat the Earth because he was threatened with the Ultimate Nullifier, something more powerful than him. So yeah, in that case, strength did determine the outcome of that fight.

And SHIELD makes telepathic gadgets? Since when?

And the difference between your logic and mine is that mine makes sense. We're not talking weird circumstances like Doctor Doom making a device which absorbs the Beyonder's powers. We're talking about taking these characters as they are. And as they are, every time you've pitted the Thing against someone stronger than him, like the Hulk, the Thing gets his ass handed to him.

Every.
Single.
Time.

And you think that the Thing will be able to defeat someone even stronger than that? Yeah, circumstances matter, and strength isn't everything, but strength is all that the Thing has. He's certainly never been known for his intelligence (In that regard Colossus has the advantage, as he's definitely more intelligent than the Thing, and can outsmart him just as easily as the Grey Hulk did). He's not going to develop a machine which'll somehow take away Colossus's mutant powers or absorb the mystical energies in his body. All the Thing's got are his fists, and stacking his strength up against Colossus with the powers of the Juggernaut, he's going to lose every single time.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Anyone else want to jump in here? I feel like I'm playing chess with a pigeon.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Anyone else want to jump in here? I feel like I'm playing chess with a pigeon.

Ah, ad hominem attacks. The last refuge of the man who knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Franklin Richards]

No. It's a perfect analogy. No matter what strategy or tactic I implore to explain my position, you just knock over the pieces and crap on the board.

 

[SuperFerret]

I would, but he used the words "ad hominem" and I therefore cannot respect myself if I joined this conversation.

 

[Captain Marvel]

No. It's a perfect analogy. No matter what strategy or tactic I implore to explain my position, you just knock over the pieces and crap on the board.

Because you're making invalid comparisons.

Thing < Hulk < Red Hulk

... is a valid comparison. Their abilities are generally consistent and anyone with a shred of logical sense can see that that's a valid measure of their abilities.

Beyonder < Doctor Doom < Thing

... is NOT a valid comparison because it's dependent on extreme circustances which don't routinely happen. You DON'T routinely see Doom beating up on the Beyonder, nor do you routinely see the Thing beating up Doctor Doom. Nine times out of ten, it would play out Beyonder > Doctor Doom > Thing, but you're using extreme corner case examples to support your argument, whereas mine is based on the most common circumstances which are repeated over and over again.

The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses because he's weaker.
The Hulk fights the Thing. The Thing loses even though he's stronger.

That's not a corner case scenario, like your Beyonder/Doom/Thing scenario, but a regular scenario that's played out over and over and over again. It's one which we saw in the screenshots which you yourself posted above in which the Thing gets the living hell beaten out of him by the Juggernaut in only three hits and only succeeds in tripping the Juggernaut in return, and admits that he couldn't have put up a fight if the Juggernaut had gotten back up (and he didn't because of something the Beyonder or Mephisto did).

So yeah, I feel safe in saying that I'm the one making the logical argument here.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Have you ever read The Old Man and the Sea?

 

[Czar Colossus]

I believe that's what happened in that whole 8th Day thing.

Also, Colossus taking a dive to save innocents? Cytorrack will not like it. Might take his powers away, or a portion of it.

Well it's only a matter of time. We know he won't stay this way indefinitely. I just hope that the climax of this story line is memorable and well-written.

And as a Spider-man fan, I have to say that burying the Juggernaut under thousands of tons of cement was a clever survival tactic on Spidey's part, but I don't know if I really call that Spidey beating Juggernaut.
The only way I see Spider-man or Thing beating Colossus is if he sacrifices his victory for the benefit of others (again).

 

[roach]

Fact: The winners of the fights will be based on what the writers want to happen not based on capabilities

 

[Anubis]

Pretty much.

Like Spidey beating effin' Firelord

Or Wolverine beating Lobo.

That said, I hope Benjy kicks his commie ass.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Pretty much.

Like Spidey beating effin' Firelord

Or Wolverine beating Lobo.

That said, I hope Benjy kicks his commie ass.

That Wolverine beating Lobo thing was stupid in so many ways.

Also Storm beating Wonder Woman...just as dumb.

 

[Anubis]

Of course it was. Cuz it was Fan voted. Fans are stupid.

 

[Czar Colossus]

Or Wolverine beating Lobo.

That was the epitome of f***ing stupid writing.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Of course it was. Cuz it was Fan voted. Fans are stupid.

They also voted that Spider-Man could beat Superboy....I find that one a bit hard to believe also.

But it wasn't as dumb as the other two.

 

[roach]

it was all a popularity contest

 

[hippie_hunter]

The one fight that should have been in AvX

Spoiler

 

[Spider-Nerd]

I forgot that storm beat wonder woman in that marvel vs. dc crossover years ago. Wasn't pete not involved in it? If I remember right ben reilly was spidey at the time.