Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event

[kguillou]

Ironically, his behavior is almost as extreme as Cap's was during Civil War. He just wouldn't listen to reason.

 

[Raiden]

Even for where the character has been in the past few years, Scott doing the equivalent of telling captain America to F off and then blasting him felt pretty out of character to me. I certainly understand the argument that Scott's been a *****e and I'm inclined to agree but the character's behavior in this issue really seemed extreme to me.

I think Scott certainly has the right to tell Capt. America to take a hike, but to blast him like that is just crossing the line. You know Cyclops is way out of character when he makes Wolverine seems like a pacifist.

 

[Havok83]

Right? I mean i get it. The mutants have been having a rough couple of years and i get that scott's a little edgy but telling Cap to screw off like that? He's freaking Captain America. He's there to help. Yes he came with backup, but why wouldn't he? Cap knew Scott was gona react the way he did but offered to settle this leader to leader and come to common ground and Scott completely disregarded that.

And? Why should any of the X-men be forced to comply simply bc he is Captain America? What makes him so darn special? He didnt merely come with backup....he came with an army. He had a fleet of Avengers, a SHIELD hellcarrier and several fighter jets. The guy came prepared for war

 

[Splat]

You have to take into account that at least half the kids and half the X-Men left Utopia. And the New Mutants left Utopia for San Fransisco. Utopia is pretty damn empty right now.

Good point, I forgot, Scott already drove most of them off.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And? Why should any of the X-men be forced to comply simply bc he is Captain America? What makes him so darn special? He didnt merely come with backup....he came with an army. He had a fleet of Avengers, a SHIELD hellcarrier and several fighter jets. The guy came prepared for war

Because he rightly assumed that Cyclops wouldn't see reason. That's what being a leader's about: anticipating your opponent's move and being prepared to counter it. Even so, it was a "just in case" move. His first action was still an earnest attempt to talk things out with Cyclops and convince him that it's in everyone's best interest to keep Hope and the Phoenix Force away from each other rather than risk the whole planet on the vague, unsubstantiated hope (no pun intended) that Hope + Phoenix = mutantkind's salvation. Cyclops is basically in religious fundamentalist territory right now. No one can touch his precious messiah because he believes she will save mutants, and anyone who says otherwise must be struck down.

 

[Raiden]

And? Why should any of the X-men be forced to comply simply bc he is Captain America? What makes him so darn special? He didnt merely come with backup....he came with an army. He had a fleet of Avengers, a SHIELD hellcarrier and several fighter jets. The guy came prepared for war

Capt. America is Capt. America because he does have integrity and great reputation within the Marvel Universe; he's not just any soldier or superhero, and he is most certainly not a villain. I can understand that Scott may disagree with him on Hope's issue, but to use optic blast on Cap like that is really just uncalled for, even if he brought an army over. Like it or not, Cyclops fired the first shot, so X-Men will have to expect some retribution in return.

 

[Havok83]

Because he rightly assumed that Cyclops wouldn't see reason. That's what being a leader's about: anticipating your opponent's move and being prepared to counter it. Even so, it was a "just in case" move. His first action was still an earnest attempt to talk things out with Cyclops and convince him that it's in everyone's best interest to keep Hope and the Phoenix Force away from each other rather than risk the whole planet on the vague, unsubstantiated hope (no pun intended) that Hope + Phoenix = mutantkind's salvation. Cyclops is basically in religious fundamentalist territory right now. No one can touch his precious messiah because he believes she will save mutants, and anyone who says otherwise must be struck down.

Too late to keep them away as they are already connected. She was either born with the Phoenix or is a fragment herself. And why does Cap need to seperate them? Why does the world need to be saved from the Phoenix? The Phoenix isnt inherently evil and has existed for years in hosts like Jean and Rachel, doing good and saving the world countless times. The only time it was a threat was during the DPS and thats bc it was manipulated and driven insane by Emma and the HFC. Its had a symbiotic and beneficial relationship with its hosts throughout the decades. Theres nothing to say the same wont be true with Hope. Im really against villifying the Phoenix. The worse thing Cap can do is piss it off by trying to control and destroy it. Thats led to disaster many times in the past.

Besides, currently its frantic and unstable bc it has no host to currently house it. Its power is infinite and it cant be stopped and destroyed. I dont think the Avengers quite get that. Theres millions of fragments out there and Scott has a better hold of the situation. The last thing you want to do it piss it off, attack it and have it go rogue again. Scott has it right by not interfering and letting it bond with Hope. She can help it as much as it can help her.

 

[Doomed_hero]

i am sorry while Scott does overreact in some ways, Cap had no right to bring a army there. The Mutant race has been through hell while the other Marvel heroes have been fighting themselves and busy with there own affairs. Avengers havent given two ****s about mutants and now they show up with a army saying, "give us Hope." Where were the Avengers when Osborn tried to attack the X-men? or when there mansion was attacked? after Scarlet Witch destoryed half there race. Cap has no right to come in as heavy armed as he did.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Capt. America is Capt. America because he does have integrity and great reputation within the Marvel Universe; he's not just any soldier or superhero, and he is most certainly not a villain. I can understand that Scott may disagree with him on Hope's issue, but to use optic blast on Cap like that is really just uncalled for, even if he brought an army over. Like it or not, Cyclops fired the first shot, so X-Men will have to expect some retribution in return.

While I agree that Cyclops fired the first shot upon an undeserving Captain America, Cap's response was totally excessive.

That's the biggest problem I'm finding with this issue, both sides are completely unsympathetic.

 

[jonathancrane]

Whoever wins, we lose...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

In under 1 issue, the Phoenix has nearly killed this new Nova and laid waste to a planet. Sure, there's nothing flashing "Phoenix + Hope = death" in neon lights, but there's certainly no guarantee that Hope would be able to control it or use it for good or not get consumed by its power. Wolverine, the closest thing to an expert Cap has on the Phoenix, has confirmed Cap's fears and admitted that the Phoenix can be a devastatingly destructive force. At this point, Cap's taking the logical, "better safe than sorry" approach.

The fact that nothing can be done to keep Hope and the Phoenix apart just makes it more important for Hope to be contained. The X-Men are fairly rag-tag at this point, what with a ton of them defecting to the Jean Grey School and Cyclops spiraling out of control over his obsession with saving the mutant race. He's effectively abusing the s*** out of Hope, the very savior he's pinned his obsession on, at the beginning of the issue. He's not acting rationally or reasonably. Wouldn't it make more sense to put Hope in the custody of the Avengers, who have much more of a stable infrastructure for dealing with planetary crises and such? Cap would gladly leave Hope alone--and has for months, in fact--if it were a mutant-centric problem. But as he says when Cyclops raises that very point, it's not; the scale of the Phoenix's power makes it a worldwide threat, and that's the Avengers' purview. Literally everything is pointing toward Hope going with Cap willingly as the sane, sensible course of action, but Cyclops just refuses to see it.

 

[Doomed_hero]

i still dont see what makes cap quailfied to contain her. What kinda of track record does he have lately in keeping things under control? Cyclops has the experience and alot of things have blown up in caps face lately. Hell X-men saved San francisco all by themselves during the last two huge invasions and beat Norman Osborn faster and with less destruction.

 

[Havok83]

In under 1 issue, the Phoenix has nearly killed this new Nova and laid waste to a planet. Sure, there's nothing flashing "Phoenix + Hope = death" in neon lights, but there's certainly no guarantee that Hope would be able to control it or use it for good or not get consumed by its power. Wolverine, the closest thing to an expert Cap has on the Phoenix, has confirmed Cap's fears and admitted that the Phoenix can be a devastatingly destructive force. At this point, Cap's taking the logical, "better safe than sorry" approach.

The fact that nothing can be done to keep Hope and the Phoenix apart just makes it more important for Hope to be contained. The X-Men are fairly rag-tag at this point, what with a ton of them defecting to the Jean Grey School and Cyclops spiraling out of control over his obsession with saving the mutant race. He's effectively abusing the s*** out of Hope, the very savior he's pinned his obsession on, at the beginning of the issue. He's not acting rationally or reasonably. Wouldn't it make more sense to put Hope in the custody of the Avengers, who have much more of a stable infrastructure for dealing with planetary crises and such? Cap would gladly leave Hope alone--and has for months, in fact--if it were a mutant-centric problem. But as he says when Cyclops raises that very point, it's not; the scale of the Phoenix's power makes it a worldwide threat, and that's the Avengers' purview. Literally everything is pointing toward Hope going with Cap willingly as the sane, sensible course of action, but Cyclops just refuses to see it.

If not for Hope and her Phoenix powers, ALL of the X-men, including the bulk of whats left of the mutant race and a chunk of San Francisco would have been killed. Thats a fact. The Avengers were useless and none of their experts were capable of helping during that event. Hope could and she did become their savior.

Captain America should be allowed to contain Hope bc she has the potential to cause mass destruction? Almost all heroes do. Why not just go and detain all the X-men while he's at it

Scott abusing Hope? Really? He was training her. Her mutant power only allows her to access others powers and mimic them. What if she is alone and not alongside any other mutant? What if humans try and take her out. She needs to be able to handle combat situations w/o relying on her powers. Now Bendis messed up, bc she's been doing that since she was a kid, but it doesnt hurt to learn more and and fine tune your skills. Scott was helping her bc their enemies will come at her harder and wont care if they went as far as killing her or not

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Training is constructive. Cyclops was just beating Hope down over and over and yelling "again" like a crazy person. He was clearly working out his own issues on Hope there, not doing something to better Hope. Like I said, he's so obsessed with Hope as the savior of mutantkind that he can't see that his actions toward her aren't helping, they're just driving her away from him. He's already done it to a sizable chunk of his own team so far.

I'm not arguing that Hope hasn't done good things or she isn't potentially capable of controlling the Phoenix Force. But she also hasn't wielded the full Phoenix Force yet. She may control it with ease, or she may end up incinerating the entire planet. With the stakes that high, it's pretty understandable for Cap to want to keep her in lockdown.

Granted, Bendis could've had Cap approach the situation with a more level head. That's really my only problem with the situation as presented. The obvious third choice besides leaving Hope with the X-Men and f***ing off or forcibly taking Hope with the Avengers would be to offer Cyclops the Avengers' aid in looking after Hope right there on Utopia. If Cyclops were in his right mind, he would've accepted, both teams would be on their guard but have faith in Hope based on her previous track record and Cable's training, and it all probably would've worked out. But, of course, this issue is basically just a preamble to what we know is the Avengers and the X-Men coming to blows, so arguing for a more level-headed approach is kind of moot.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Training is constructive. Cyclops was just beating Hope down over and over and yelling "again" like a crazy person. He was clearly working out his own issues on Hope there, not doing something to better Hope. Like I said, he's so obsessed with Hope as the savior of mutantkind that he can't see that his actions toward her aren't helping, they're just driving her away from him. He's already done it to a sizable chunk of his own team so far.

I'm not arguing that Hope hasn't done good things or she isn't potentially capable of controlling the Phoenix Force. But she also hasn't wielded the full Phoenix Force yet. She may control it with ease, or she may end up incinerating the entire planet. With the stakes that high, it's pretty understandable for Cap to want to keep her in lockdown.

Granted, Bendis could've had Cap approach the situation with a more level head. That's really my only problem with the situation as presented. The obvious third choice besides leaving Hope with the X-Men and f***ing off or forcibly taking Hope with the Avengers would be to offer Cyclops the Avengers' aid in looking after Hope right there on Utopia. If Cyclops were in his right mind, he would've accepted, both teams would be on their guard but have faith in Hope based on her previous track record and Cable's training, and it all probably would've worked out. But, of course, this issue is basically just a preamble to what we know is the Avengers and the X-Men coming to blows, so arguing for a more level-headed approach is kind of moot.

Which leads me to ask, people like Mags, Emma and Namor have a little more common sense than Cykes right now. I want to see how they react to all this. I figure Emma will stand by Scott no matter what but I'm looking forward to seeing how the other two react to all this. Does Magneto also believe that Hope is some savior?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wasn't Emma sort of worried about how Scott was acting in "Schism"? I vaguely recall something like that when people were picking sides, with Emma saying Scott shouldn't assume so quickly that she would be on his side.

 

[Havok83]

Which leads me to ask, people like Mags, Emma and Namor have a little more common sense than Cykes right now. I want to see how they react to all this. I figure Emma will stand by Scott no matter what but I'm looking forward to seeing how the other two react to all this. Does Magneto also believe that Hope is some savior?

Namor only cares about his own people's well being and he has done worse to ensure their survival than Scott ever has. Scott's offered them a safe haven when they had nothing left. He will stick with him for as long as the Atlanteans need it

Emma is the one that warned Scott about Steve's intentions so its obvious where her loyalties lie

Magneto's expressed in the past that he beleives in Hope and that they need to protect her. She helped give him hope (no pun intended) for what was his dying race

Wasn't Emma sort of worried about how Scott was acting in "Schism"? I vaguely recall something like that when people were picking sides, with Emma saying Scott shouldn't assume so quickly that she would be on his side.

It was the Regenesis oneshot. Her main temtpation to leave was the oppurtunity to teach. Being around children is her passion so being with a school is where she'd most feel she'd be put to better use

 

[Donnie Darko]

Haven't read #1 yet, only #0. I am just now getting back into comics after taking about a year off. Without any other spoilers, could someone possibly pm me the general roster for each of the avengers and x-men books so I can decide which books to pick up along with this? Been trying to find stuff online but can't seem to find any accurate, up to date stuff. Thank you to anyone who can help me out with that.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'll hook you up. PM on its way.

By the way... feels like forever since I've seen you on. Unless I just missed you, welcome back.

 

[Splat]

Wouldn't surprise me if Namor jumped sides, he's known Steve longer then anyone and actually respects him, unlike Scott.

 

[Havok83]

Haven't read #1 yet, only #0. I am just now getting back into comics after taking about a year off. Without any other spoilers, could someone possibly pm me the general roster for each of the avengers and x-men books so I can decide which books to pick up along with this? Been trying to find stuff online but can't seem to find any accurate, up to date stuff. Thank you to anyone who can help me out with that.

I can tell you the X-men side at least

Uncanny:
Extinction Team: Cyclops, Hope, Storm, Magneto, Emma, Namor, Danger, Magik, Collossus

Xmen:
Security ReconTeam: Storm, Warpath, Domino, Jubilee, Psylocke, Collossus

New Mutants:
Moonstar, Magma, Sunspot, X-man, Cypher, Warlock

Wolverine and the X-men:
Teachers and Staff: Iceman, Beast, Wolverine, Shadowcat, Rachel. Toad, Warbird
Students: Quentin Quire, Hellion, Broo, Genesis, Angel, Kid Gladiator, Idie, Bling!, Blindfold, Cipher, Ernst, Indra, Graymalkin, Glob Herman, Gentle, Match, Mercurty, Rockslide, Trance

X-men Legacy:
Teachers: Rogue, Iceman, Wolverine, Gambit, Frenzy, Cannonball, Husk, Chamber
Students: same but used in less of a capacity than WatX

Astonishing X-men:
Wolverine, Northstar, Iceman, Gambit, Cecilia Reyes, Karma, Warbird,

Uncanny X-force:
Wolverine, Psylocke, Deadpool, AOA Nightcrawler, Fantomex

Other characters who arent part of an official book roster but are still utilized are:

X-club: Dr. Nemesis, Kavita Rao, Madison Jeffries, Danger

Gen Hope: Hope, Pixie, Zero, Primal, Transonic, Velocidad

Recruits: Prodigy, Dust, Loa, Stepford Cuckos, Crosta, Martha, Surge

Street Team: Dazzler, Boom Boom, Lifeguard

 

[kguillou]

What's Prof X up to nowadays? He's sort of disappeared.

 

[Havok83]

What's Prof X up to nowadays? He's sort of disappeared.

I think his last appearance may have been Prelude to Schism. No clue where he is supposed to be now

 

[HighFivingMF]

So, the only Marvel book I've really been reading was Captain America, I'll catch up on Daredevil soon. I plan on getting into Thor and Iron Man again when Fraction leaves.

So, can someone give me a quick rundown or link explaining why there's so few X-Men?

 

[kguillou]

I feel so bad for him, I feel like he became obsolete ever since Scott told him to f*** off.