Batman: Arkham Origins - Part 2

[Nathan]

Doesn't sit well with me that he can share a laugh with the most deranged criminal on the planet. Might as well have added the line "See you next week.", somewhere in there, so they can resume their dance and share another hardy laugh.

 

[Two-Face]

Joker is nothing without Batman vica-verse. Just like Ra's I amused Talia disappeared.

 

[Doc Ock]

I think Joker is nothing without Batman, he needs Batman in the end. However I don't think it works vice-versa, Batman doesn't need The Joker.

 

[Nathan]

Joker is nothing without Batman vica-verse.

Which is complete bull to me. Yes, Joker needs the Batman. He needs a dance partner, or he'll be bored with no idea what to do. But Batman should never, ever, be nothing without the Joker. If crime as a whole is eradicated? Then Batman loses his purpose. But not when just the Joker died. So he's gone, there are still a ton of deranged criminals out there, that require to be taken down by Batman.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Batman doesn't need Joker.

But I've always liked the connection between the both of them. Joker of course on a higher level. It makes it all the more personal for them. It cements them as mortal enemies, deeper than any other hero and villain.

 

[Nathan]

Yeah, I like the connection between them. But it sickens me if you make both of them depended on each other. Joker needing the Batman is ok. That just how his mind works. But for Batman, at the end of the day, Joker should be nothing more than trash. He should be a tragic man, that lost all of Batman's sympathy years ago. While Joker is entirely obsessed with Batman, Batman could just toss him in a dumpster once he's done with him and continue with his work of saving Gotham.

 

[Rodrigo90]

But it just makes Joker appear as nothing more as just an average villain.

I like the deep connection because it's unique to see. It not only makes the Joker one of the greatest villains ever, it also makes for one of the greatest dramas between the villain and the hero.

If Batman treats Joker as nothing more than just an annoying punk, why should anybody care about the two together?

I like the effect Joker makes on Batman.

When I saw the part in Death Of The Family where Batman stated he hated nothing more than him, I was peeved for some reason. I don't like that sort of thing said, because it just shows a basic emotion and connection, hate.

I like something more than that. ..something deeper and more disturbing. I can't describe it. But Batman has a disturbing affinity for Joker. I liked what I saw in AC.

 

[Nathan]

I just can't believe that after all he's done, after the hundreds of people he killed, friends he's crippled, he could treat Joker with any kind of respect. Batman was always a nut job, but to me it just shows how messed up his psyche must be, if he gets affected to such a degree by Joker's death.

Sure, Joker is more than a common criminal. He's one of the most iconic comic book villains and I love him too, but that doesn't change that I think Batman should be stronger than that. Heck, I could understand if he'd carry Two-Face out. At least he and Harvey were friends before. But the Joker? He's one of the biggest monsters you could find on this face of the Planet.

 

[zenith16]

But it just makes Joker appear as nothing more as just an average villain.

I like the deep connection because it's unique to see. It not only makes the Joker one of the greatest villains ever, it also makes for one of the greatest dramas between the villain and the hero.

If Batman treats Joker as nothing more than just an annoying punk, why should anybody care about the two together?

I like the effect Joker makes on Batman.

When I saw the part in Death Of The Family where Batman stated he hated nothing more than him, I was peeved for some reason. I don't like that sort of thing said, because it just shows a basic emotion and connection, hate.

I like something more than that. ..something deeper and more disturbing. I can't describe it. But Batman has a disturbing affinity for Joker. I liked what I saw in AC.

some of your words got eaten up there after you mentioned death in the family. I think he said he wanted nothing more then to permanently cripple him. which in any case that make sense. it's ether that or put him in a coma. but yeah this is not a healthy relation ship there a thing of having respect for the enemy,

But no that part has never sat right, especially that scene with in killing joke. it also reminds me of what Frank Miller said to the space channel( it's a sci-fi channel station ) up here before he finished Sin City(and he was written off as nuts after that spirit movie was done) on video when they asked the writers about Batman and what made him cool and where he stood in the place of the heroes. The word out of Miller is that he's a Bad guy. But he's a bad guy that's on your side. He was a spin on what bad guy's do with their planning, but that scene how ever.... lol oh man No... and other peoples(that still don't know of that part in the comic's) reactions if they ever animate that Scene.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I just can't believe that after all he's done, after the hundreds of people he killed, friends he's crippled, he could treat Joker with any kind of respect. Batman was always a nut job, but to me it just shows how messed up his psyche must be, if he gets affected to such a degree by Joker's death.

Sure, Joker is more than a common criminal. He's one of the most iconic comic book villains and I love him too, but that doesn't change that I think Batman should be stronger than that. Heck, I could understand if he'd carry Two-Face out. At least he and Harvey were friends before. But the Joker? He's one of the biggest monsters you could find on this face of the Planet.

In honesty? I think it's because Joker actually understands Batman on some level. He constantly reminds Batman of the darkness within himself, the things that make him what he is. Joker speaks a twisted truth to a twisted Batman.
No other villain has made a deeper impact on him than Joker.

And the two then have this weird connection.

 

[Nathan]

It just makes me dislike Batman if he actually feels he's got any sort of connection to the Joker, to the point his life is affected by his death. So much that he trips up when he faces Harley.

 

[Doc Ock]

It just makes me dislike Batman if he actually feels he's got any sort of connection to the Joker, to the point his life is affected by his death. So much that he trips up when he faces Harley.

And ditches Talia.

 

[Nathan]

Maybe for Arkham 3, Bruce should just hang up the cape and let Dick take over. Bruce can spend the rest of his days sitting in the cave, if he doesn't get his act back together.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Maybe Batman needs to decapitate Joker
It's the most noble thing to do with such a deranged monster
If he really died in Arkham City, I hope they don't consider a retcon for a sequel

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I'm still interested in Rocksteady's plan for Azrael... if any now.

 

[Nathan]

Maybe Batman needs to decapitate Joker
It's the most noble thing to do with such a deranged monster
If he really died in Arkham City, I hope they don't consider a retcon for a sequel

I'm not saying Batman needs to be unnecessarily brutal. But he also shouldn't carry him and be affected by his death, as if he just lost a brother.

 

[Rodrigo90]

It just makes me dislike Batman if he actually feels he's got any sort of connection to the Joker, to the point his life is affected by his death. So much that he trips up when he faces Harley.

Batman obviously tries to deny and bury his feelings towards the Joker with claims of hatred.

But no matter much of that is he does, it's there - the weird affinity.

Look at TKJ. Batman pitied him and worried that they might end up killing one another. He reached out to his enemy for a chance at redemption. But Joker knew he couldn't ignore and forget the evil he's committed...The guilt of facing a normal life after everything was too much for him.

Then in another storyline, he did just that after Batman went missing. He attempted to live normally. ..then Batman returned and so did the Clown Prince of Crime.

Joker exists only through Batman.

And Batman doesn't need Joker to exist. But he is a constant reminder and stirrer of emotions to Batman. He whispers in his ear things that shake Batman deep down. ..Things that obviously he will not let show on the surface, but Joker knows he gets under his skin...and Batman knows this too.

As much as Batman hates Joker, he's more connected because he is his greatest threat. The likes he could never have imagined...something that terrifies him even. Joker is a threat to everything Batman holds dear...and I feel on a level, that Batman needs and wants him around. Strange as it sounds. The two are the opposites of the same coin.

Joker makes this connection more obvious by spelling it out, whereas Batman makes it seem less by claims of hated in order to hide the truth from the Joker and himself.

That's what I think anyway

 

[Nathan]

Batman obviously tries to deny and bury his feelings towards the Joker with claims of hatred.

But no matter much of that is he does, it's there - the weird affinity.

Look at TKJ. Batman pitied him and worried that they might end up killing one another. He reached out to his enemy for a chance at redemption. But Joker knew he couldn't ignore and forget the evil he's committed...The guilt of facing a normal life after everything was too much for him.

Then in another storyline, he did just that after Batman went missing. He attempted to live normally. ..then Batman returned and so did the Clown Prince of Crime.

Joker exists only through Batman.

And Batman doesn't need Joker to exist. But he is a constant reminder and stirrer of emotions to Batman. He whispers in his ear things that shake Batman deep down. ..Things that obviously he will not let show on the surface, but Joker knows he gets under his skin...and Batman knows this too.

As much as Batman hates Joker, he's more connected because he is his greatest threat. The likes he could never have imagined...something that terrifies him even. Joker is a threat to everything Batman holds dear...

And that is all great.

and I feel on a level, that Batman needs and wants him around. Strange as it sounds. The two are the opposites of the same coin.

But this is where I draw the line. If Batman can share laughs with his most deranged enemy, that doesn't value life in the slightest, and gets shaken up to the point that he can't perform his job properly anymore, I'm starting to lose all respect for the character. He shows a range of emotion for this deranged killer, that rarely even his closest allies ever see. What more did the Joker have to do? Dig up his Mother's corpse and mount her skull on his junk? Or would that have made Batman hold a eulogy at Joker's funeral?

Joker makes this connection more obvious by spelling it out, whereas Batman makes it seem less by claims of hated in order to hide the truth from the Joker and himself.

That's what I think anyway

That's fair enough. I just hate to think that Batman is seriously that damaged.

 

[Rodrigo90]

And that is all great.



But this is where I draw the line. If Batman can share laughs with his most deranged enemy, that doesn't value life in the slightest, and gets shaken up to the point that he can't perform his job properly anymore, I'm starting to lose all respect for the character. He shows a range of emotion for this deranged killer, that rarely even his closest allies ever see. What more did the Joker have to do? Dig up his Mother's corpse and mount her skull on his junk? Or would that have made Batman hold a eulogy at Joker's funeral?



That's fair enough. I just hate to think that Batman is seriously that damaged.

I totally get those points. And I'll admit, it's very odd. But it's there. Some writers see it and others don't.

I'm no expert in terms of psychology, though I do study.

Batman has a lot of darkness in himself. He's been in a dark place, the same place Joker is in.
Batman has this affinity with nearly all the villains, unlike the other chatacters, because he could have easily become a psycho himself.

He managed to steer away from self destruction and turn his constant pain into something positive. He's done things and thought things that's probably made him feel he's really no better than who he fights. He tries to make amends by teaching others to be more positive than he was/is through their pain, before they step into the darkness he's stepped in. Where all the villains dwell...where Joker stands, because he knows Batman will forever linger between the darkness and the light...just waiting for him to finally join him in that world of evil.

I got that from AA:ASHOSE.

Joker and Batman both know there is some truth in the connection. And if it weren't for Joker, Batman probably wouldn't have realised this and reflected on it.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Doesn't sit well with me that he can share a laugh with the most deranged criminal on the planet. Might as well have added the line "See you next week.", somewhere in there, so they can resume their dance and share another hardy laugh.

I actually viewed that moment as unintentional on Batman's part, that he couldn't help but laughing - less so that he was like "oh you!"

 

[zenith16]

I actually viewed that moment as unintentional on Batman's part, that he couldn't help but laughing - less so that he was like "oh you!"

I get the feeling it was more of the Xavier's Evil bit or want of that by certain writers. they were pushing over at marvel . there were some writers that seem to want the heroes to have the nasty side to them that will make certain heroes not that likeable to some of us fans I noticed there was or still is this trend some of them are pushing toward to make you question some of the heroes reasoning's. like that weird rape scene that happened to Nightwing where he was the victim. there's a list for both marvel and DC. or twisted thing with Nate grey being kissed by Maddie pryor . there's a list there on the marvel side as well. all stuff that make people go the f is wrong here? and why was that a good idea to put out by that writer. oh and look at the very first wolverine origins where we found out about wloverines real dad Thomas and the same bad habit wolverine does to any one that's in the leader ship position and happened to have a red head girl friend all cause of a baby sitter he had a thing for called "Rose" who was taken away by some one that was a navy captain when he was kid. But look what he did to guardian and cyclops and you have to consider if spiderman ran a super hero team and was still married to MJ what that would have meant.

After all Spiderman did nearly put him through a window in avengers tower cause wolverine was hitting on her and then tried to blow off that he has a record of doing that to others. And the hint they leave in tv animated series with wolverine on that issue of his as well. Just saying . some of the writers are trying say some thing with those thing's. Something very unnerving.

BTW I usually re block that Nate & Maddie event since it's incest (which that writer may have thing for) in a way and I'm doing it again after this. I really want pimp slap that writer that put that in my head in that issue.

 

[craigdbfan]

Lets be honest Bruce Wayne isn't fully there. Anyone who does what he does isn't.

Batman had been through so much throughout that story that his only coping mechanism as to not kill the damn guy right there and then was to just laugh. I don't think he found any of it funny. That's why some people say that the Joker truly won in that moment. He also "broke" Batman mentally in that moment. Sure, Batman can recover but Joker pulled enough of the veils to leave Batman with a completely uncharacteristically reaction.

It was an incredibly human moment. I don't believe for one second that any single human being has ever gone through their whole life without ever doing something that was completely uncharacteristic of their usual behavior. I would especially find that to be the case with someone like Bruce Wayne that despite his years of physical and mental training to have a lapse every now and then when you consider the lengths his rogues gallery (specifically the Joker) take him to.

 

[zenith16]

yeah well it's still odd. but then again that may not be what the writer was "hinting at" at the time ether. It may be there just as a WTF moment and points something you may not want to think about . After all people still dump on both Batman and Xavier on making protocols to take down there teams if they(those on their teams) are ever out of control. cause of events like these. It just makes you wonder what their(those writers) aiming for with these things? what you can reasonable say like you just did, May not be the case and they are showing sides we don't want think about.

 

[the last son]

Couldn't stand in TKJ that Batman actually sat up here and shared a laugh. SMH. It wasn't even a funny joke to begin with. One of the reasons I hated that comic and wish people would stop recommending it. I don't want to hear that Wayne isn't all there Batman should hate Joker with every fiber in his body. No laughing, honoring, feeling sad by his departure. Like someone else said Batman should have told Gordon it was over as he walked out of arkham city, while leaving joker laying on the floor like the trash he is.

 

[Nathan]

This is how he should feel towards the Joker. No any other way. Valuing life is one thing, but at some point, after a certain number of atrocities, he should not have a single shred of sympathy left for the Joker.