BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

[The Guard]

During the courtroom explosion, Wayne sees some papers with writing "You let your family die". He assumes it's Superman toying with him after a night where Supes threatens him to quit being Batman.

...what?

There is nothing in the film to suggest that Batman thinks these are from Superman. If anything, he thinks they are from Wallace, and the messages remind him of what happened.

It's not just about the name. The name triggers something in Batman. It's not even mostly about Superman and his mother. It's about Batman realizing what he has become and how far gone he is. That's why his reaction is one of shock and disgust.

WHY IS HE SCREAMING AT SUPERMAN "HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT NAME? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?". If he and the rest of the world know that your parents died when you were a kid, then that's how he knows that name.

Which still doesn't explain to Batman why Superman is saying that name to him at that point in time. Which is why he asks.

He literally just grabbed a thug's gun while it was going off like apes**t does a rotation around the room trying to kill the rest of the thugs. They duck. Don't think anyone got hit but INTENT PEOPLE! INTENT! I may ignore it because he's trying to save MARTHA! (why did you say that name!? ) OK he could have f**ked them up another way.

He's pretty clearly firing over their heads to force them to the floor.

 

[TheBat812]

It baffles me that a filmmaker is considered a bad storyteller because he does so much of his storytelling with images instead of endless exposition. Film's mandate has pretty much always been "Show, don't tell". That's half its appeal. Not that this film didn't also "tell" plenty.

It also baffles me that people keep making blanket statements about how this person or that person is solely responsible for movie quality, be it good or bad.

Baffles me. It's basically a corporate buzz phrase. Largely meaningless, and not always true.

Look, the idea that a director should be/is solely responsible for the quality of a final product is all well and good, but it's just not accurate on any real level, and it's borderline offensive to the other people involved in making a film. Especially in a massive corporate environment like Warner Brothers. There has to be a structure in place, and other things have to fall into place along the way.

Agreed. I'd take an ambitious and more artistic film like BvS over the standard and more television-like Marvel movies any day. Snyder's strength is visual storytelling - the primary thing that separates cinema from television. Having said that, I really wish he either worked with another director to make some of the more on the nose moments feel alot more nuanced, or not let the studio cut his movies to ****. You can always feel when things have been truncated, and many of Snyder's theatrical releases have this going against them.

 

[shauner111]

Over their heads? He's shooting at their heads, which is why they're ducking. God, you're in denial Guard.

It's all about the name Martha, and how he connects it to his mom. It's possible that he's thinking of how far he's gone. That he's become a killer and he's planning out murder. But there's a ton of fans on here who say that Bruce is shocked that Superman has a mother that he cares about. That's complete b.s, because he tells him that line right before "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something. That you're here for a reason."

 

[shauner111]

Agreed. I'd take an ambitious and more artistic film like BvS over the standard and more television-like Marvel movies any day. Snyder's strength is visual storytelling - the primary thing that separates cinema from television. Having said that, I really wish he either worked with another director to make some of the more on the nose moments feel alot more nuanced, or not let the studio cut his movies to ****. You can always feel when things have been truncated, and many of Snyder's theatrical releases have this going against them.

Im not much of a Marvel Studios fan up to now, but ill take Winter Soldier and what im hearing about Civil War, looks like ill take that over B v S any day. It's such bad filmmaking with zero dynamics or character development or maturity that i personally can't call it "art". It's dumb popcorn with a bleak attitude throughout. It's just one of Marvels lesser films in disguise.

Snyder's strengths are visual storytelling? I wouldn't use the word storytelling. His strengths are visuals, yes, but pretty or cool looking shots. And it's a strength of his until he starts to over-do it. Which he tends to do pretty quickly in every one of his films. You need more than pretty visuals, CGI and slow-motion effects to tell a good story, or to show some characters that you can really engage in.

B v S felt a lot like a television episode (or episodes). 5 of them to be exact, crammed into a single movie.

He doesn't care for Superman much, never has. And he loves Batman apparently, but obviously only loves the concept of how Batman looks. Doesn't understand a thing about the character. So i wish he never directed Goyer's story for MOS. I praise Nolan for his trilogy but choosing Zack was a bonehead maneuver. Maybe Abrams turned it down or something. I would have went with him. It would have saved us from the terrible Star Trek Into Darkness. Goyer also should have worked on a second draft with somebody else before a guy like Abrams shot the movie.

There's a few others outside of JJ that could have done that job and this one. It should have been a MOS sequel featuring a few key scenes with Bruce Wayne, which lead to a Batman/Superman: World's Finest movie where the two heroes have conflict but don't fight.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

In any case, this is an evasion of the matter at hand, so I'll just ask you directly; in what way(s) did the Den of Geek analysis misinterpret the movie? Since your basis for the correct interpretation is Snyder & Terrio's vision, I'd also ask you to cite them directly for clarification.

Just to let you know, I've written five pages so far and am probably not even halfway through, though I'm done for the night. Let me know now if you can even be arsed to read something like this before I put in any more of my time working on it.

 

[MrsKent26]

It's all about the name Martha, and how he connects it to his mom. It's possible that he's thinking of how far he's gone. That he's become a killer and he's planning out murder. But there's a ton of fans on here who say that Bruce is shocked that Superman has a mother that he cares about. That's complete b.s, because he tells him that line right before "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something. That you're here for a reason."

I don't think that "you're parents taught you..." comment means much. He knows superman probably has a mother somewhere, but it's just an empty fact. He hasn't felt in yet, in the heat of rage. That comment is just meant to be a taunt. The mothers having the same name and hearing that another Martha was in trouble made it more personal. The name draws his attention, makes him think. Then the gravity of what he's doing clicks into place. He saw superman as an "other" and the common name and situation lets him see this alien as a human. It's easy to dismiss the idea that an "other" has a mother in theory, because everyone has one. When that other's mother has the same name and is about to be killed just like Bruce's was...that's another matter.

I guess you could say both are true: the commonality of having a mother does make batman see superman as a human, but he only stopped and considered this when he heard that specific name. He wasn't "shocked" that superman has a mother (logically, he knew this, but it hadn't registered emotionally); he was just forced to feel it, to feel empathy because of the memories of his own mother superman stirred up. That's how I saw it.

 

[brandeezy89]

Im not much of a Marvel Studios fan up to now, but ill take Winter Soldier and what im hearing about Civil War, looks like ill take that over B v S any day. It's such bad filmmaking with zero dynamics or character development or maturity that i personally can't call it "art". It's dumb popcorn with a bleak attitude throughout. It's just one of Marvels lesser films in disguise.

Snyder's strengths are visual storytelling? I wouldn't use the word storytelling. His strengths are visuals, yes, but pretty or cool looking shots. And it's a strength of his until he starts to over-do it. Which he tends to do pretty quickly in every one of his films. You need more than pretty visuals, CGI and slow-motion effects to tell a good story, or to show some characters that you can really engage in.

B v S felt a lot like a television episode (or episodes). 5 of them to be exact, crammed into a single movie.

He doesn't care for Superman much, never has. And he loves Batman apparently, but obviously only loves the concept of how Batman looks. Doesn't understand a thing about the character. So i wish he never directed Goyer's story for MOS. I praise Nolan for his trilogy but choosing Zack was a bonehead maneuver. Maybe Abrams turned it down or something. I would have went with him. It would have saved us from the terrible Star Trek Into Darkness. Goyer also should have worked on a second draft with somebody else before a guy like Abrams shot the movie.

There's a few others outside of JJ that could have done that job and this one. It should have been a MOS sequel featuring a few key scenes with Bruce Wayne, which lead to a Batman/Superman: World's Finest movie where the two heroes have conflict but don't fight.

WB went through 9 directors (Including Ben) for MOS before Zack took the job. They simply didn't want to do it even though Nolan was involved

 

[OutOfBoose]

Over their heads? He's shooting at their heads, which is why they're ducking. God, you're in denial Guard.

It's all about the name Martha, and how he connects it to his mom. It's possible that he's thinking of how far he's gone. That he's become a killer and he's planning out murder. But there's a ton of fans on here who say that Bruce is shocked that Superman has a mother that he cares about. That's complete b.s, because he tells him that line right before "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something. That you're here for a reason."

Who cares? they survived. End of story.

Martha indeed reminded him of his own mother, of the moment, that haunted him his whole life. That he has gone too far. Like, he was forced to look at the mirror. Also, Bruce's phrase doesn't really contradict Martha scene. One thing - parents, that made Superman believe he's very special, another - alien, that cares about other people, about his own human mother, who's ready to give his life. I guess, it's both things: seeing humanity in an alien and Batman, realizing who he has become.

 

[batfreakforever]

Don't get the hate for BVS. I just don't. Every. Single. Person that I know that have seen this film love it but comic fans !@#$ing hate it. I love it and I'm a comic fan. Big fan. All the major graphic novels and batman comics I have read and own. l know all the history of batman and Superman and Wonder Woman. It all clicks for me. This is comic book fans film is a wet dream. I must be reading different comics and graphic novels for all the other fans. I understand maybe hating a few things but when a fan says it's this and this and this and this and this and this that's wrong with it tells me that it's just not for you and you must be just complaining for the hell of it because it did something different to what you wanted. I don't know. I'm not meaning to offend anyone but Batman killing in films is normal to the general public. Yes it's more comic book than the other batman films and this is what we always wanted and now we are not happy. W. T. H. And how can any go well I'm not seeing this because some critic told me not to so they don't. Dc is different like people wanted from Marvel and we are still not happy.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Over their heads? He's shooting at their heads, which is why they're ducking. God, you're in denial Guard.

It's all about the name Martha, and how he connects it to his mom. It's possible that he's thinking of how far he's gone. That he's become a killer and he's planning out murder. But there's a ton of fans on here who say that Bruce is shocked that Superman has a mother that he cares about. That's complete b.s, because he tells him that line right before "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something. That you're here for a reason."

this is absurd. it is NOT about the name "Martha". I mean, that's part of it, but only on the most surface level. Nor is it "That he has a mother", but you said it yourself "He has a mother that he CARES FOR". The entire point of that is the entire movie he has thought Superman is an alien who could turn bad because he couldn't possibly have compassion for the people of Earth. But in Superman's dying moment, he tells Bruce to "Save Martha" even if it means that he himself is going to die anyways. It's at this point he realized Superman's humanity. The connection of the name "Martha" just serves to make the reaction instant and all that more personal to Batman. And yes, he does tell him just before that that line bout his parents teaching him that he meant something, but again, its not simply about the fact that he has parents, its about how in his last dying moments he wants his mother to be saved, regardless of what happens to him. Which is finally what allows Bruce to see him as a "Man" - hence the previous line where he says "You were never a god. You aren't even a man." That being said, it probably would have been more effective and clear for many if that line about his parents had not been in the film.

EDIT: I jumped the gun as MrsKent said pretty much what I did albeit sooner. I didn't read the full page before posting.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Don't get the hate for BVS. I just don't. Every. Single. Person that I know that have seen this film love it but comic fans !@#$ing hate it. I love it and I'm a comic fan. Big fan. All the major graphic novels and batman comics I have read and own. l know all the history of batman and Superman and Wonder Woman. It all clicks for me. This is comic book fans film is a wet dream. I must be reading different comics and graphic novels for all the other fans. I understand maybe hating a few things but when a fan says it's this and this and this and this and this and this that's wrong with it tells me that it's just not for you and you must be just complaining for the hell of it because it did something different to what you wanted. I don't know. I'm not meaning to offend anyone but Batman killing in films is normal to the general public. Yes it's more comic book than the other batman films and this is what we always wanted and now we are not happy. W. T. H. And how can any go well I'm not seeing this because some critic told me not to so they don't. Dc is different like people wanted from Marvel and we are still not happy.

I'm with you. I know what the polls say, what the critics say, what the BO numbersy say, what the CinemaScore says etc etc, but none of that matches up with how the audiences I've seen it with have reacted. I don't mean just the friends I've seen it with(although not a single person I've spoken to disliked the movie), I mean the theater in general. Applause throughout(particularly the WW entrance) and applause at the end. I rarely see a movie with such a reception in theaters.
As for Batman killing, I can understand to die hard comic fans how that is off-putting, I totally get it, but to me I just don't care. Because I've never read a comic book in my life, and I'm viewing this as straight up-movies as opposed to adaptations, which is how I always operate regardless of the kind of adaptation that it is. Furthermore, Batman has a character-arch in the movie in which he clearly ends up on a path at the end to STOP killing. I also keep reading about "lack of character development." ......who was underdeveloped? If someone could explain that to me because I don't get that for a second. And don't even say "Lex has no motivations" because its quite literally outlined on the rooftop scene, you don't even have to remotely dig for it. He actually tells Superman what is his problem with him is in his own words.

Meanwhile, people complain that there isn't character development, yet have zero interest in Superman having a story -arch and only want to see him fully formed saving people, saving animals out of trees, helping ladies cross the street, all with a big smile on his face with zero consequences for his actions. k.

 

[Predator jp]

lack of character development or no motivations basically means it wasn't convincing enough for them.
if you thought it was convincing, that's fine. but some didn't and we all felt differently that's all.

 

[Jaxon]

lack of character development or no motivations basically means it wasn't convincing enough for them.
if you thought it was convincing, that's fine. but some didn't and we all felt differently that's all.

I don't get that people don't get it. All motivations were obvious and Superman has had such a rich character arc over 2 movies. People love the Reeves movies even though his whole development was 1 minute where he spent 12 years in hibernation.

 

[titansupes]

I don't get that people don't get it. All motivations were obvious and Superman has had such a rich character arc over 2 movies. People love the Reeves movies even though his whole development was 1 minute where he spent 12 years in hibernation.

Jesus. His development goes through the high school years (who am I), the death of Pa Kent (what is my purpose), finding the green crystal and leaving the farm (call to adventure), the twelve years of tutelage and becoming Superman. Even then-- he's not done. He chooses his human father's influence over his alien one (it is forbidden/here for a reason) and becomes his own man in the process.

Continues through the second movie-- He's punished for his own choices and comes to grips with his station in life aka not being with Lois so he can serve the whole world.

The next two movies, obviously, aren't good, but even they have Superman learning lessons about himself and/or the world, without making him a mopey Scowlman.

 

[Charlatan]

I don't think that "you're parents taught you..." comment means much. He knows superman probably has a mother somewhere, but it's just an empty fact. He hasn't felt in yet, in the heat of rage. That comment is just meant to be a taunt. The mothers having the same name and hearing that another Martha was in trouble made it more personal. The name draws his attention, makes him think. Then the gravity of what he's doing clicks into place. He saw superman as an "other" and the common name and situation lets him see this alien as a human. It's easy to dismiss the idea that an "other" has a mother in theory, because everyone has one. When that other's mother has the same name and is about to be killed just like Bruce's was...that's another matter.

I guess you could say both are true: the commonality of having a mother does make batman see superman as a human, but he only stopped and considered this when he heard that specific name. He wasn't "shocked" that superman has a mother (logically, he knew this, but it hadn't registered emotionally); he was just forced to feel it, to feel empathy because of the memories of his own mother superman stirred up. That's how I saw it.

a couple of points. one being that up until that time he thought Supes came after him willingly. once he learned that Lex was holding his mother and forcing him to come after him did he realize how they had both been manipulated. And how this powerful alien had refused to kill him to save her. He knew then that he had been wrong about him. This wasn't a cold ,unfeeling alien it was a person,with a mother he loved and he was begging for his help.

 

[Predator jp]

I don't get that people don't get it. All motivations were obvious and Superman has had such a rich character arc over 2 movies. People love the Reeves movies even though his whole development was 1 minute where he spent 12 years in hibernation.

you see the post below? this is what i'm talking about when i say we all feels differently. i'm not even trying to convince you to change your opinion, i just want you to know that it's not about "getting it" or who's right and wrong. it's just that some people doesn't share your opinion.

Jesus. His development goes through the high school years (who am I), the death of Pa Kent (what is my purpose), finding the green crystal and leaving the farm (call to adventure), the twelve years of tutelage and becoming Superman. Even then-- he's not done. He chooses his human father's influence over his alien one (it is forbidden/here for a reason) and becomes his own man in the process.

Continues through the second movie-- He's punished for his own choices and comes to grips with his station in life aka not being with Lois so he can serve the whole world.

The next two movies, obviously, aren't good, but even they have Superman learning lessons about himself and/or the world, without making him a mopey Scowlman.

 

[Charlatan]

Jesus. His development goes through the high school years (who am I), the death of Pa Kent (what is my purpose), finding the green crystal and leaving the farm (call to adventure), the twelve years of tutelage and becoming Superman. Even then-- he's not done. He chooses his human father's influence over his alien one (it is forbidden/here for a reason) and becomes his own man in the process.

Continues through the second movie-- He's punished for his own choices and comes to grips with his station in life aka not being with Lois so he can serve the whole world.

The next two movies, obviously, aren't good, but even they have Superman learning lessons about himself and/or the world, without making him a mopey Scowlman.

He's got a lot of soul searching to do. Wallace blowing himself up, Lois and his Mom being targeted. Would they be better off if he was gone? I expect he will try to stay hid and live a secluded but normal life for a while. But something will happen and he will be needed again.

 

[javonstokess]

The problem is the foundation of Snyder's version of Superman was never the strongest. In MoS, it was never really established WHY he became this selfless individual and because of that it allows his character to waver and wane. Some people like this because they think it makes him "more real", but the purpose of Superman was never to be "more real".

He's an ideal and it would have been a fascinating character study to show WHY he become the ideal.

Just think about it: Pa Kent was essentially obsessed with telling Clark to hide his powers. His message was barely, if at all, about serving the world around him. Even Jor-El's message was essentially about re-establishing Krypton. There's no legit reason why Clark would want to be Superman.

His parents, Ma & Pa Kent are supposed to be his inspiration and that's not what is shown on the screen.

 

[TeeKay]

The problem is the foundation of Snyder's version of Superman was never the strongest. In MoS, it was never really established WHY he became this selfless individual and because of that it allows his character to waver and wane. Some people like this because they think it makes him "more real", but the purpose of Superman was never to be "more real".

He's an ideal and it would have been a fascinating character study to show WHY he become the ideal.

Just think about it: Pa Kent was essentially obsessed with telling Clark to hide his powers. His message was barely, if at all, about serving the world around him. Even Jor-El's message was essentially about re-establishing Krypton. There's no legit reason why Clark would want to be Superman.

His parents, Ma & Pa Kent are supposed to be his inspiration and that's not what is shown on the screen.

Especially when Pa Kent implied that he should have let those kids die and then commuted suicide himself. Heck Ma Kent said, "Be their hero, Clark. Be their angel, be their monument, be anything they need you to be... or be none of it." Awful, just awful.

 

[javonstokess]

Especially when Pa Kent implied that he should have let those kids die and then commuted suicide himself. Heck Ma Kent said, "Be their hero, Clark. Be their angel, be their monument, be anything they need you to be... or be none of it." Awful, just awful.

Honestly, I could forgive everything else about the MoS and BvS movies if not for their butchering of the Kents' characters.

There's nothing "unrealistic" about 2 parents, seeing that their child will have enough power to change the world, teaching said child about humility and service to humanity. That would have made a POWERFUL statement about "nature vs. nurture" had they taken that approach.

 

[Charlatan]

The problem is the foundation of Snyder's version of Superman was never the strongest. In MoS, it was never really established WHY he became this selfless individual and because of that it allows his character to waver and wane. Some people like this because they think it makes him "more real", but the purpose of Superman was never to be "more real".

He's an ideal and it would have been a fascinating character study to show WHY he become the ideal.

Just think about it: Pa Kent was essentially obsessed with telling Clark to hide his powers. His message was barely, if at all, about serving the world around him. Even Jor-El's message was essentially about re-establishing Krypton. There's no legit reason why Clark would want to be Superman.

His parents, Ma & Pa Kent are supposed to be his inspiration and that's not what is shown on the screen.

In this iteration they really didn't want him outing himself to the world
but they did say it was up to him to choose. they were unsure how the world would react. it's totally plausible imo that they would not try to influence him to expose himself (and them possibly) like that. They obviously raised him to be morally upright. He's not some bully or brat as a kid. He bites his lip and refrains from being provoked. And I think Jor-El did provide inspiration just fine. Go back and watch the film again. Jor-El clearly tells him his wishes for his future. To be "joined in the sun" by the humans and help usher them into a new golden age.

 

[javonstokess]

In this iteration they really didn't want him outing himself to the world
but they did say it was up to him to choose. they were unsure how the world would react. it's totally plausible imo that they would not try to influence him to expose himself (and them possibly) like that. They obviously raised him to be morally upright. He's not some bully or brat as a kid. He bites his lip and refrains from being provoked. And I think Jor-El did provide inspiration just fine. Go back and watch the film again. Jor-El clearly tells him his wishes for his future. To be "joined in the sun" by the humans and help usher them into a new golden age.

You're missing my point. In almost every iteration of Superman's background in every medium, it's his parents that instill in him the notion that service to humanity how he should use his abilities. The problem with Snyder's version is while yes they gave him a choice, they never really show why he would choose to use his abilities to help humanity. If anything, he'd be a paranoid mess from what the showed. As for Jor-El, he never really talks about helping humanity, he really seems to want Clark to bring back Krypton, just in a more human-friendly way than Zod.

 

[Flint Marko]

Can someone explain to me why Superman does good things and saves people? What is his motivation and reasoning for helping out mankind? Use only things that are presented in the movies.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Can someone explain to me why Superman does good things and saves people? What is his motivation and reasoning for helping out mankind? Use only things that are presented in the movies.

He was raised as a normal kid by normal parents. Compassion is something that needs a good reason? It was within his power, he wanted to help.

As for mankind... Earth is his home now. He was hammered by Kents, that people will reject him out of fear. He has to earn humanity's trust. There's also extended rant of Jor-El, they will race behind you bla-bla-bla... I think, it's enough.

 

[Flint Marko]

He was raised as a normal kid by normal parents. Compassion is something that needs a good reason? It was within his power, he wanted to help.

His parents have actually both told him things that fly in the face of compassion. And yeah, if I'm to understand why I should care about this Superman, I think it'd be nice to understand why he cares about us.

As for mankind... Earth is his home now. He was hammered by Kents, that people will reject him out of fear. He has to earn humanity's trust. There's also extended rant of Jor-El, they will race behind you bla-bla-bla... I think, it's enough.

I don't think it's enough, not even close. We don't understand why he's doing what he does beyond some lip service about these big, grand ideas that never really have a payoff.