BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

[shauner111]

Pa Kent's death could have been handled better for sure. But, IMO, it delivers the point.

The point of lazy writing? If it's executed and written horribly, a lot of people won't buy the rest of his "arc".

 

[OutOfBoose]

I was never a fan of either of the Kent parents dying, but Reeves' version had the best one and proved the best point.

Have Clark's father die by a heart attack gives a stunning example that not all of Clark's problems can be solved with his powers and also that he can't save everyone.

The point of MoS death scene isn't about Clark can't save everyone. It was about the belief, that Clark should keep his abilities a secret till the right time comes. "Clark can't save everyone" theme is addressed in BvS.

 

[javonstokess]

The point of MoS death scene isn't about Clark can't save everyone. It was about the belief, that Clark should keep his abilities a secret till the right time comes. "Clark can't save everyone" theme is addressed in BvS.

Then that undercuts and invalidates the whole point of him deciding to become Superman in the first place.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Except for those kids on the bus, I guess. Also doesn't Martha tell Clark he doesn't owe this world a thing? This doesn't really add up.

It a very controversial subject. Clark seemingly acted according to how he was raised - being a good person. But here's the situation, when him being a good person goes in conflict with responsibility about keeping his abilities a secret. No wonder it's really hard to hear from Pa Kent "Maybe."

As for Martha saying him "he doesn't owe this world a thing"... She's being honest with him. He indeed doesn't owe this world a thing, but he cares about people and loved ones and that's why he does what he does.

I've given them two chances and they've only disappointed me each time.

Sorry they disappointed you. They blew me away. What are we gonna do about it?

 

[OutOfBoose]

Then that undercuts and invalidates the whole point of him deciding to become Superman in the first place.

How?

 

[Flint Marko]

It a very controversial subject. Clark seemingly acted according to how he was raised - being a good person. But here's the situation, when him being a good person goes in conflict with responsibility about keeping his abilities a secret. No wonder it's really hard to hear from Pa Kent "Maybe."

As for Martha saying him "he doesn't owe this world a thing"... She's being honest with him. He indeed doesn't owe this world a thing, but he cares about people and loved ones and that's why he does what he does.
Sorry they disappointed you. They blew me away. What are we gonna do about it?

Can you point me towards anything that shows he was raised to be a good person?
And in regards to what we're gonna do about it - keep discussing, or simply accept, our different perspectives seems like a good way to go.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Can you point me towards anything that shows he was raised to be a good person?

Well, maybe I put it wrong, but Martha demonstrates great care about little Clark, she rushes to the school and helps him overcome his struggle. Little kids copy their parents behavior, if parents demonstrate care, the child will demonstrate care too. Nothing shows they were abusive towards him or each other, so Clark doesn't learn about compassion and care. Pa Kent demonstrates care about Clark too. He's worried about his emotional state, he scared the kids away... There's a shot where Clark wears a cape and plays with a dog - seems like a happy childhood to me.

And in regards to what we're gonna do about it - keep discussing, or simply accept, our different perspectives seems like a good way to go.

Sounds good. As long as it's not filled with cynicism and willing to bash the film for pleasure.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I see we have reached the point where detractors are willing to simply impute things which they dislike into the movie. Adieu.

I feel you, Reg. You're one of the good ones, always have been.

Worst part is, they won't even admit that that's what they're doing. It's their "opinion" so it must be unassailable. There are not enough faces and not enough palms.

 

[Legendver2]

Except for those kids on the bus, I guess. Also doesn't Martha tell Clark he doesn't owe this world a thing? This doesn't really add up.

I don't get why everyone is hung up on that quote. What did you want her to say? This world has done so much for you, so you owe this world everything, so you're obligated to save it?

The whole point of that lecture is Martha telling him to make his own choice when he's having doubts. You either be their everything, or be none of it, aka either give it your all being a hero, or just go back to being normal, you can't half-arse it or go half way. She's giving him a choice, and making it clear that he isn't obligated to do anything, and nothing is forcing a decision on him. It drives the point that Superman chose to be a hero not because of obligation (because he owes this world something), but out of the goodness of his own heart.

 

[MrsKent26]

That "you don't owe this world a thing" talk with Martha was another missed opportunity for superman's characterization. I can see where she's coming from as his mother, but if I recall correctly, superman didn't say anything back to her in that scene. This would have been another golden opportunity for him to talk about why he chooses this and wants to be superman.

 

[Kane52630]

It's almost as if Goyer/Snyder doesn't like Superman enough to give him lines.

It was the same problem in Man of Steel, he had other people talk for him.

 

[Predator jp]

maybe they had to cut Clark's response out of the movie. UC can't come soon enough.

 

[MrsKent26]

It's almost as if Goyer/Snyder doesn't like Superman enough to give him lines.

It was the same problem in Man of Steel, he had other people talk for him.

I'm starting to think this may be the case. Not just based on the movie, but on Snyder's comments about superman. Or they simply don't know what to have him say.

 

[The Joker]

Pa Kent and Clark were standing in the exact same spot, Clark could've easily fetch the dog and come back without using his superpowers. i hated that scene, it made Pa Kent stupid.

And there was a massive tornado in the back. I think people's attention would be towards that and not Clark.

The point of lazy writing? If it's executed and written horribly, a lot of people won't buy the rest of his "arc".

Exactly. I don't care what the intentions are behind a scene or a piece of writing. Unless you execute it properly the whole thing falls flat.

 

[Predator jp]

Exactly. I don't care what the intentions are behind a scene or a piece of writing. Unless you execute it properly the whole thing falls flat.

it's a shame really because Costner was incredible as Pa Kent.

 

[STARMAN]

They rarely let Superman speak for himself.

 

[The Joker]

it's a shame really because Costner was incredible as Pa Kent.

Yeah, most of the problems with these movies is not the actors. The casting overall, minus one or two exceptions, has been great. It's the writing and direction. Can't blame the actors for that.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't get why everyone is hung up on that quote. What did you want her to say? This world has done so much for you, so you owe this world everything, so you're obligated to save it?

The whole point of that lecture is Martha telling him to make his own choice when he's having doubts. You either be their everything, or be none of it, aka either give it your all being a hero, or just go back to being normal, you can't half-arse it or go half way. She's giving him a choice, and making it clear that he isn't obligated to do anything, and nothing is forcing a decision on him. It drives the point that Superman chose to be a hero not because of obligation (because he owes this world something), but out of the goodness of his own heart.

I'm not hung up on it, I just mentioned it when someone else put forth the idea that he got his innate goodness and sense of duty from his parents because I don't think that's the case.

Pa Kent and Clark were standing in the exact same spot, Clark could've easily fetch the dog and come back without using his superpowers. i hated that scene, it made Pa Kent stupid.

Like so much else with these films, it's the definition of contrived.
We need Pa Kent to die, so we're gonna have him run with open arms into a tornado.
We need Superman and Batman to be pals, so we're gonna have Clark refer to his mom by her first name which he's never done previously, and then have Lois come just in the nick of time to explain to Batman what he's saying.
We need a giant third act climax, so Lex is going to create a giant monster he can't control with no real plan.
We need

Spoiler

Superman to die, so forget about Wonder Woman, we're going to have Superman use the weapon made from the only thing that can weaken him to stab the monster, thereby making himself vulnerable.

 

[shauner111]

Costner is capable of such warmth that it annoys me to no end how much they screwed that character up. They make him babble on about stupid crap, make him look like a negative nancy all the time. Imagine if he played a warmer version and had a heart attack? Imagine how much emotion we could have felt in a scene like that with the right direction and writing?

Diane Lane and Kevin Costner is such great casting. Just like Jeremy Irons for Alfred, or Russell Crowe as Jor-El.

 

[shauner111]

Like so much else with these films, it's the definition of contrived.
We need Pa Kent to die, so we're gonna have him run with open arms into a tornado.
We need Superman and Batman to be pals, so we're gonna have Clark refer to his mom by her first name which he's never done previously, and then have Lois come just in the nick of time to explain to Batman what he's saying.
We need a giant third act climax, so Lex is going to create a giant monster he can't control with no real plan.
We need

Spoiler

Superman to die, so forget about Wonder Woman, we're going to have Superman use the weapon made from the only thing that can weaken him to stab the monster, thereby making himself vulnerable.

Yeah it's like why is Wonder Woman in this movie then? I was expecting Wonder Woman to take out Doomsday and prove to the other two that they need to go find more of "her kind". But the whole "Death of Superman" thing was always in the back of my head going "Noooooo don't do it Snyder."

Since you mentioned Lois showing up in the nick of time to explain things. I thought the editing in that scene was so bad. Everything was Batman/Superman, Bats walks towards Superman ready to stab him, then Zack cuts to a shot of Lois outside getting out of the helicopter walking towards the building. Then it cuts back inside where Batman's still walking towards Superman. I figure Zack felt that it would create anticipation but in fact, it ruined the scene and made it predictable. When Bats grabs that spear you're waiting to see if he's going to do it or not (at least some of the audience is, who haven't seen the trailer). Cutting to Lois had me like "Well obviously Lois is here now she's going to stop Batman from stabbing him." You end up feeling nothing when he backs off.

Editing is just as much of a crime as the script. More than the crimes Batman commits

 

[Lily Adler]

It's almost as if Goyer/Snyder doesn't like Superman enough to give him lines.

It was the same problem in Man of Steel, he had other people talk for him.

I cringed a bit when he wanted to silence Lois instead of have an actual discussion about what happened. Yes it led to a sexy bathtub sex scene, but I wanted more dialogue. Also the scene where he damages the Batmobile and instead of debate on Bruce's brutal tactics or anything their first meeting in costume is just the "Do you bleed line?" and "The Bat is dead..." I wanted more interaction.

My main problem with Snyder and Goyer was that they had ideas for Superman but never translated well on screen. Why have a montage of heroics when you could have something as epic as the plane sequence from SR or the bullet train in the comics where we actually see Superman do his thing like Batman's chase sequence and warehouse fight? Superman got short changed from a film that shares his name. This was a Batman film through and through. And that is why I did not like this film. It was a lie to Superman fans.

 

[shauner111]

I cringed a bit when he wanted to silence Lois instead of have an actual discussion about what happened. Yes it led to a sexy bathtub sex scene, but I wanted more dialogue. Also the scene where he damages the Batmobile and instead of debate on Bruce's brutal tactics or anything their first meeting in costume is just the "Do you bleed line?" and "The Bat is dead..." I wanted more interaction.

My main problem with Snyder and Goyer was that they had ideas for Superman but never translated well on screen. Why have a montage of heroics when you could have something as epic as the plane sequence from SR or the bullet train in the comics where we actually see Superman do his thing like Batman's chase sequence and warehouse fight? Superman got short changed from a film that shares his name. This was a Batman film through and through. And that is why I did not like this film. It was a lie to Superman fans.

The montages were fine as is, but that's the only time you really see Superman saving anything. It's so glossed over it's incredible. And in that montage you get a great shot of Superman hovering over this family, on a roof. But it's there to be a good shot i suppose. Let's see him not seem arrogant, staring at this poor family who's reaching out for him. Show us Superman not hesitating to go down there and grab them, flying away. The religious stuff is fine but when you do it all in a montage it makes Superman look less than Batman.

 

[Lily Adler]

They really need to stop with the Christ allegories. I hated it in MOS and I hated even more in BvS, especially now they're doing a resurrection theme in JL.

 

[Monochron]

They really need to stop with the Christ allegories. I hated it in MOS and I hated even more in BvS, especially now they're doing a resurrection theme in JL.

But Loca what about the holy trinity of Kal-EL, Clark, And Superman. The Christ allegories can never be stopped.

 

[shauner111]

They really need to stop with the Christ allegories. I hated it in MOS and I hated even more in BvS, especially now they're doing a resurrection theme in JL.

It's layed on real heavy that he's Jesus and Darkseid is going to be Satan.