BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

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You're quoting a part of my post in which I essentially said "This isn't Batman". You're right, and that was the point.

I'd wholeheartedly agree with you if the film showed Batman to be this way for no reason whatsoever or made it seems like there was no problem with what he was doing. However, the film DOES give a reason for him to have been that way and the film DOES show/explain that he was wrong to have been this way (along with his one and only ally objecting to his actions and seriously questioning/doubting him). Beyond that, the film suggests that he wasn't always this way and also that he has "changed" by the end, so I disagree with the blanket statement that he's just an all-around horrible, terrible, stupid human being.

Rather, he's just a human being. Human beings make mistakes. They suffer from things PTSD and depression which make them act out of character and cloud their judgement. They accomplish great things and experience success, and they also fail at things which lead them to question or doubt themselves and the world around them. They suffer from personal loss and struggle to move on. They go through dark periods that either swallow them whole and destroy their lives completely, or dark periods that they're able to rise up from and learn from.



It's not about people wanting to "make the argument" that he's broken and bitter. He literally was broken, bitter, jaded, and misguided. There's no arguing against it, and that's what led him to act like the right wing jerk that you have every right to claim he was -- because he was. The Metropolis incident seemed to have just been the "straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak.

Batman is a special character to most (or all) of us, and despite the character's ability to be endlessly reinterpreted in different ways, we all have our own vision of an ideal Batman.

So ultimately, I understand some people are just uncomfortable with seeing Batman act like that at all, or simply refuse to accept a version of Batman who allowed himself to temporarily "lose his way" and fall from "grace", acted out of character, made poor decisions that were fueled by his own inner turmoil, lost side of what his mission as Batman was really about, and even allowed himself to be manipulated by someone (Lex).
I guess they make mistakes, and they also kill people and torture them in sadistic ways! It's all good though, right? As long as they beg forgiveness, it's back to square one. Back to the good ol' Batman. Just a temporary period of 2 to 10 years where he's out of character. No big deal! :o

I didn't see Bale's Batman go on a killing/branding spree after he lost somebody close to him. I didn't see him look at Bane (a guy who killed a lot of people and had the ability to wipe out his entire city with INTENTION unlike Superman)...and lose it completely.

This Batman was spiritually and mentally weak in this movie. All he was was a meathead with anger issues. I pray that Ayer and Affleck himself can correct this somehow. Im sure they will. But Snyder ruined a lot for me.

Problem is, i don't think he's coming out saying "this is a different version. An experimentation." I bet he's thinking "Batman doesn't have it in him anymore to kill Superman. He won't brand criminals anymore. But he's still an a-hole who will kill anything that gets in his way. Cuz you know, it's fine right? That's what he does! They do it in every other awesome version i've seen soooo..We can have fun with that right?"
 
Wow. And people wonder why I think the characterisation of Batman in this movie is horrible. What a terrible, stupid human being. He'd rather go after Superman, who has displayed no evil intent, in order to murder him - instead of taking five minutes to look into the twitchy billionaire whose actions have been highly questionable. This isn't Batman. I don't care how many people want to make the argument that he's broken or bitter, he's acting like a right wing stupid jerk throughout the majority of this film.

Robin has been murdered.
Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.

Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.
He is middle aged and past his peak.

I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go. Batman is not a moral person. Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't. But he is. He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.
 
Robin has been murdered.

He was in the comics, too. Batman didn't go psycho then. Spider-Man didn't go psycho when Gwen Stacy died etc. Heroes don't go nuts just because they lost someone.

Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.

Ermmm they're about the only two people he does trust at the best of times, not counting the likes of Lucius Fox, whom I doubt has turned bad. Though in Snyderverse it's highly possible. I mean we're talking about a guy who thinks it's a laugh to kill off Jimmy Olsen after 10 seconds of screen time.

Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.

After 20 years he should be used to that. Cops don't expect crime to end for good after 20 years in the service, why should he?

He is middle aged and past his peak.

So you're saying it's a mid life crisis he's having lol?

I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go.

No it's not. Batman has faced everything you said above in the comics, and it never pushed him to this. Ever.

Batman is not a moral person.

Yeah and the Joker's not a bad guy.

Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't.

Good lord....

But he is. He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.

No offense, but your idea of who Batman is is so far off the mark. From saying Batman is not a moral person, to claiming he doesn't want to help people. 100% factually wrong. Those descriptions only apply to Batfleck. Which is why it's such a bad characterization.
 
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Robin has been murdered.
Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.

Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.
He is middle aged and past his peak.

I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go. Batman is not a moral person. Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't. But he is. He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.

But he should be, arguably speeaking.
 
Wow. And people wonder why I think the characterisation of Batman in this movie is horrible. What a terrible, stupid human being. He'd rather go after Superman, who has displayed no evil intent, in order to murder him - instead of taking five minutes to look into the twitchy billionaire whose actions have been highly questionable. This isn't Batman. I don't care how many people want to make the argument that he's broken or bitter, he's acting like a right wing stupid jerk throughout the majority of this film.

As far as detectives go, this Batman displays a skillset closer to Jacques Clouseau than Sherlock Holmes.
 
Robin has been murdered.
Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.

Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.
He is middle aged and past his peak.

I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go. Batman is not a moral person. Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't. But he is. He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.


You're absolutely right. Realistically, this is a direction that Batman could go in, but shouldn't go in, and that was the idea. Especially in regard to the notion I bolded, which is something Bruce actually says in the film. I imagine if we met Affleck's Batman at an earlier, more hopeful point in career, he wouldn't speak or think that way, nor would be refer to himself as a criminal or liken himself to a hunter.

Batman absolutely does want to help people and save people. He believes in the good of humanity, but at this point in his life, he's lost sight of that and lost that kind of idealism. Superman's arrival and what happens in Metropolis is like the exclamation point of that mindset, as he bears witness to an incident that strikes him with the same feelings of powerlessness and rage that he felt when he was a boy and his parents are gunned down in front of him.

Let's not forget that after his parents are murdered, it's not like Bruce automatically became Batman one moment later. There were years -- more than a decade -- between that moment and the beginning of his career as Batman. I think that it's commonly accepted that Bruce struggled for many of those years with his anger and feelings of inner turmoil, and that he was a "lost soul" for some time before training and embarking on his Batman crusade. Even Batman Begins shows Bruce planning to shoot and kill Joe Chill as a teen or college student, before someone else pre-empts him. But eventually, Bruce is able to fuel that rage into something good. He's able to honor his parents by devoting his life, his mind, and his body to saving people, preventing children from becoming orphans like him, making his city a better place, etc.

But here, he bears witness to another act of seemingly senseless violence on a grand scale in Metropolis that he was powerless to stop -- buildings coming down, thousands of people dying including people he knew, a girl who becomes on orphan in front of his eyes -- it's like Crime Alley Version 2.0, but this time, he's already Batman, and a veteran, jaded Batman at that. While becoming Batman had helped him rise out of his own darkness once before (hence the bats carrying him up to the light in his dream), that can't happen again. He's been Batman for 20 years and is past his peak to an extent, already having lost some of that hopeful idealism he probably once had after all he'd seen and experience, and this only makes things worse. He doesn't have another decade to find himself after his world is rocked to its core again in a bad way.

The things that make Batman so great aren't just the 'Batman' aspects -- the suit, the gadgets, the fighting, the skills, the fear-inducing persona, etc. It's the Bruce Wayne aspects -- his compassion, idealism, logic, reason, infallibility, sense of purpose, faith in his mission and the good in people, etc. Take away some of those aspects in a Bruce who is not of sound mind, and you're left with the kind of Batman we see in the first half of BvS --- aka, not the Batman we know and love or ever want to see.

So this time, following the Metropolis incident, the "Bat" persona all but consumes him, instead of saving him and giving him purpose as it once did. He tells Alfred he needs the Batsuit to do recon/detective work, and Alfred tells him he doesn't and must go as Bruce Wayne to do it. Before doing so, he intensely stares at the Batman suit, probably wishing he could use it because he feels uncomfortable doing anything like this without it. He dreams about bringing flowers to his parent's grave site, but the "Bat" creature breaks through his mother's grave stone, refusing to let him honor them or think back to the real reason he became Batman. His methods as Batman become more cruel and callous. He devotes himself to seeking the means to take down Superman -- the being at the center of the tragic Metropolis incident -- rather than devoting himself to seeking the means to fight injustice/crime as he originally set out to do. He doesn't listen to Alfred's logic and reasoning, as Bruce normally would.

The film goes to on to show that this time, it's Bruce's interaction with Superman that ultimately saves him and brings him back from the brink of darkness. The "Martha" moment is what causes him to realize the "monster" he had become, and Superman's actions and death are what lead to another reversal within him, as he reverts back to a more hopeful individual who believes that "men are still good" and that people like himself and Wonder Woman can make a difference.
 
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No offense, but your idea of who Batman is is so far off the mark. From saying Batman is not a moral person, to claiming he doesn't want to help people. 100% factually wrong. Those descriptions only apply to Batfleck. Which is why it's such a bad characterization.

It's amazing to me how many people read Batman comics, watch Batman films and TV shows, and play Batman video games, yet, IMO, completely fail to pay attention to who the character of Batman actually is.
 
It's amazing to me how many people read Batman comics, watch Batman films and TV shows, and play Batman video games, yet, IMO, completely fail to pay attention to who the character of Batman actually is.

Seems to me if you give some fans a comic book accurate costume, comic book accurate aesthetic and comic book accurate gadgets they couldn't care less about comic book accurate character beats. Make it look like what they like, the actual character doesn't matter.
 
^ Yeah, and that's sad to me. It's surface crap. I regret being the type of person who fell for that crap myself.

Fighting like Arkham Games Batman doesn't necessarily mean you captured Batman's essence as an actual character.
 
Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.
He is middle aged and past his peak.

I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go. Batman is not a moral person. Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't. But he is. He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.

Yeah, and that's not Batman. That's this guy

RH0002.jpg


BvS features Red Hood in a Batman costume
 
Seems to me if you give some fans a comic book accurate costume, comic book accurate aesthetic and comic book accurate gadgets they couldn't care less about comic book accurate character beats. Make it look like what they like, the actual character doesn't matter.

You know that's so true.
 
I really hope you guys aren't referring to someone like me, or anyone who isn't against this version of Batman. It's entirely possible for someone to completely understand and cherish the Batman character and still be accepting of this particular version.
 
Robin has been murdered.
How many Robins have been killed in the comics without turning him into a brutal thug?
Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.
I haven't seen the movie yet.....so please tell me (anyone can answer this for me), are recognizable people from the world of Batman actually shown to be or mentioned to have turned bad?
Every time he puts a criminal away a new one crops up.
Welcome to the world. This has been happening to anyone who enforces the laws of the land for the last several thousand years.
He is middle aged and past his peak.
So....all middle aged people become psychotic?
I think every bit of evidence goes to show that this is very much a direction Batman could go.
There are thousands if not millions of directions a person could go who has experienced what this Batman/Bruce Wayne has.....but the question becomes who wants to see the extreme variations that can be possibilities made into movies?
Batman is not a moral person.
Oh? The Batman that I have read and watched for 53 years has been.
Batman is a criminal that convinces himself that he isn't.
]Oh? The Batman that I have read and watched for 53 years hasn't been.
But he is.
]Oh? The Batman that I have read and watched for 53 years hasn't been.
He doesn't strive to help people, he punishes criminal first and foremost.
I think you need to read some Batman comic books.....it sounds like you have Bats confused with this other comic book character called the Punisher.
 
Robin has been murdered.
Every person he ever trusted (except Alfred and probably Gordon) has turned bad.
A darker Batman is realistic after going through the pain of seeing Robin dead. A kid. But darker how? Branding, or brooding in the cave more. Sure (even though i personally don't agree with the branding, but ill cut that some slack for this post only). Being angry with Superman, sure. But plotting his murder without being mature or logical? Killing thugs when they're in his way? Sadistically killing them? You dont see Batman acting like this in the comics after Robin was killed. You don't see Batman acting like this after Rachel died in The Dark Knight. This is an experimental take on batman. I would be OK with it if Snyder admitted this instead of saying "Hey, this movie failed but what can ya do! Im a comic book guy and i tried doing that to the best of my ability!" This movie was presented like it's the closest thing to the comics, but it's not. It's one of the least accurate Batman movies, to the source material. It only is if you look at the visuals. And it's an extremely odd choice to give people a first impression of this new Batman, by making him as unlikable as possible or doing experimental versions. It's not a good way to compete against Marvel. Sure, make the tone darker than Marvel to build your own identity. But makes the heroes...HEROES going in Justice League, and be true to the characters. That's why Marvel is successful with the fans and with box-office. It's not because it has a light, playful tone. This DCEU doesn't need to have light, playful, jolly Batman movies with quips every second. But there's a dynamic that should be present and a general understanding of who they are in the source material, what makes them heroic enough to start a TEAM. There's a chemistry, and an excitement that makes Marvel more successful. Things that this movie failed to do.

I didn't quote the rest of your post, because i'm baffled that you believe that. To each their own, but i don't understand what you're saying. That's not really the Batman that i know and love. Like someone said to you, it sounds more like Red Hood, the way you're going on about it.
 
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A shame Affleck was only the second best Punisher released in March. :o
 
haven't seen the movie yet.....so please tell me (anyone can answer this for me), are recognizable people from the world of Batman actually shown to be or mentioned to have turned bad?

None. There isn't a mention of Robin either. Just a red suit in a display case that could for all intents and purposes be Batman's last Halloween costume.
 
I love how people think it's 'unrealistic' for Batman to have higher ethical standards than the most corrupt cop, but don't bat an eye at the fact that Snyder-Bat selectively uses guns against some criminals, but in really high-pressure situations prefers to judo-fight criminals (and so effectively!) while wearing 80 pounds of latex
 
A shame Affleck was only the second best Punisher released in March. :o

Zing. And accurate. A shame that a Marvel Netflix series showed better versions of Bats and Supes than a movie starring Bats and Supes.
 
None. There isn't a mention of Robin either. Just a red suit in a display case that could for all intents and purposes be Batman's last Halloween costume.

This is another issue. If Batman was behaving this way because of some tragedy that happened with Robin, that's kind of something we need to see! Just another example of Snyder being a poor storyteller.
 
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