BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

[Jaxon]

So in a nutshell, we can say Superman's appearance, how he and Zod destroyed all of those lives, THAT'S what turned Batman into a branding, killing Bat? It wasn't even in Gotham. An employee or maybe it was many employees (we don't know for sure) went down that day. Im sorry but if he looked into it more, he would find out that is not just Superman's fault. Superman also saved lives that day. Yes he took part in the destruction. It's a part of his responsibility, but if Bruce used his head, he would know that Superman didn't intentionally kill those people. He didn't want them to die. Why would BATMAN of all characters throw away his moral code because there was an alien invasion in Metropolis? Does he toss his code away everytime a huge terrorist attack happens? If he had some employees working in the towers during 911, would he go on a killing spree? Come on man.

There's no history shown or told to us. He's just there as Batman. Been doing it for a while. Experienced loss like the versions we've seen in the comics or films. And then this Superman stuff goes down, and he's suddenly a monster who has thrown away the entire point of Batman. It's forced. It's done so there could be a scene towards the end where Superman inspires Batman to go back to his old ways. It would have been better if he was just brooding, and more depressed, but still acted like himself in important situations. Then he's about to kill Superman, and he doesn't. Then right after this, he continues to be the Batman he used to be. But this doesn't happen before the murder that almost took place in that abandoned building, and it doesn't happen afterwards either.

I personally don't think it was the Superman thing that sent him over the edge. I don't believe he killed his enemies post-Superman. He was already over the edge, and he let himself go over the edge from the same things that comic book Batman or even Bale's Batman went through. They endured. This one didn't because he was written to be weak, so they can make him look stronger later when he goes through his "arc". For me, it made him look weaker by the end of it. But you know, since i have no proof that he was like this Pre-Superman, i have to by what's in the film. The film shows me Bruce Wayne in Metropolis helping a kid, helping Wallace with his legs, etc. Then he goes apes**t. After this scene, we see that almost 2 years have passed, and he started branding people and we see him blowing people away with guns, stabbing people. So maybe you're right. It's all from Superman. In other words, this is a very weak Batman in every way other than his strong physique.

I can tell Terrio never read a comic before this movie, because everyone is out of character.

Batman stops being interesting when you take away his heart and his code. This movie did both.

What turned Batman into this version in his mid 40's was the realisation that he has achieved nothing in his life, put one criminal away, another pops up. He very clearly says this to Alfred.
The appearance of Superman just reinforces his fear that his whole life has amounted to nothing, and it's sent him down a more desperate path.
It's well written and very obvious.

 

[FunkMiller]

What turned Batman into this version in his mid 40's was the realisation that he has achieved nothing in his life, put one criminal away, another pops up. He very clearly says this to Alfred.
The appearance of Superman just reinforces his fear that his whole life has amounted to nothing, and it's sent him down a more desperate path.
It's well written and very obvious.

It's only well written if you've got no problem with jettisoning 75 years of characterisation, and bastardising Batman's morality and heroism for the sake of getting him into a fight with Superman.

 

[FunkMiller]

I think it is safe to say a lot of us "haters" actually feel this way. We feel this way because we care and we were invested. I wanted more than anything a great Batman AND Superman movie. If I could go back before this movie came out, I would. But this is what we got. Do we have a right to hate it? Yes we do and shame on anyone who says otherwise. My hate comes from a position of caring for these characters and I selfishly want the characters I care about and not the ones we got. Selfish? Yes. Malicious? No.

I'd argue that I'm far more invested in the character of Batman than someone who has no problem with him murdering. Hence why I come on this forum to vent some very understandable frustrations IMO.

 

[javonstokess]

What turned Batman into this version in his mid 40's was the realisation that he has achieved nothing in his life, put one criminal away, another pops up. He very clearly says this to Alfred.
The appearance of Superman just reinforces his fear that his whole life has amounted to nothing, and it's sent him down a more desperate path.
It's well written and very obvious.

It would be well written...if it wasn't using the Batman character.

 

[javonstokess]

Batman doesn't kill. If he kills, he kills the Joker, eight o'clock day one.

'Blah blah blah he killed in the 30's so it's part of canon blah blah blah'... except Superman only could Super-LEAP originally. Hulk was GREY. Daffy Duck was insane, not resentful. Charlie Brown was drawn in a totally different style. Bucky was a kid sidekick.

Characters evolve over time until they are honed into their iconic versions. The iconic version of Batman is a ninja with the mind of Sherlock Holmes who will bend and evade the law in every way but one: He will not kill. He will not use the weapons of his enemy. And while vengeance is part of his drive, his ultimate allegiance--and his redemption--lies with his care for the victims. Even TDKR, a movie that I generally loathe, shows Bruce putting his fortune to work on behalf of Gotham's orphanages and free energy.

Snyder's Batman isn't just a murderer; he's self-pitying, and not at all bright (seriously, he seems not even curious about the ultimate plans of Luthor or the IDENTITY OF THE ALIEN HE'S PLEDGED TO KILL??? EVEN IF HE'S JUST GOING TO MURDER THE GUY, BATMAN DOESN'T BOTHER TO RESEARCH HIS BACKGROUND??? LOIS LANE AND LEX LUTHOR ARE SMARTER THAN THE GUY WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE SUCH A SUPERLATIVE VIGILANTE THAT HE CAN BE A MEMBER OF A SUPERTEAM WITH WONDER WOMAN AND FREAKING SUPERMAN????)

If you're going to have Batman kill, there needs to be extreme circumstances and extreme consequences. Just saying 'He's killing because he's sad, but watching sad Superman stupidly impale himself changes his mind' is dumb. Because if this is a guy who abandons his ethics and his morals every time he loses someone on the battlefield, or finds out an enemy's mom is named 'Martha', well... he's psychotic and has no business being a superhero.

So much to like in this...

 

[AnneFan]

The DCU has to give these characters a starting point. An arc. And they have that for Batman, Lex and Supes. Wonder Woman had a period of apathy too.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It would be well written...if it wasn't using the Batman character.

It would still be bad. It is all based on vague hints and conjecture. Very poor writing.

If you want to watch a well-written heroic character that has given into despair and a vengeance-fueled rage as a result of personal tragedy, watch Mad Max.

 

[javonstokess]

A. You're being overly nitpicky, this is a root part of their connection
B. Likely he was asked by the government so mankind could advance its technology
C. Because this Batman had become obsessed with his own failure in life and was lashing out at Superman
D. Government said that his presence resulted in that outcome
E. Bruce realises it's possible to unite these kind of people because of her

Spoiler

A. This is not nitpicky, it makes no sense. He can hear Lois Lane's heartbeat while she's underwater and he's in the middle of a freakin' battle, but can't hear his own mother's heartbeat in a quiet warehouse in the same city? BS.

B. This is conjecture and speculation. My original request was to answer my questions with FACTS directly coming from the movie.

C. So he's an idiot. Gotcha.

D. No, they didn't. They were blaming him for the deaths, which is why Lois was giving the general the Lexcorp-based bullets.

E. But you still have not told me why she's central to THIS MOVIE not to the future Justice League movie.

 

[javonstokess]

Spoiler

I can't prove it with footage, but there's a description of the scene, that will be in UC, where Superman tries to find his mother. 1. Martha doesn't say a word, because she's held at gunpoint. 2. It's a big and noisy city around. 3. During the battle, there's nobody around outside DD, WW, Bats and Lois. 4. Lois is making noises (just like Superman hears conversation on the farm in MoS).
Why wouldn't he? Knife can be used for preparing food or murder. It's not up to Superman to decide what humanity should or shouldn't do. He isn't a dictator or a sole ruler of Earth.
He didn't see Superman as a good samaritan alien. Bruce was focused on Superman, not Luthor. And Luthor is a threat to what exactly? Use Bruce's perspective.
Government didn't pin murders on Superman. The senate questioned legality of Superman's actions. We don't know for sure what happened there, but local government organized bloodbath after Superman left. I say, let's wait for UC, where Africa sequence is expanded.
Given how Superman sparked research on meta-humans (meta-human thesis), it forced WW to take some actions to prevent exposure (the photo). Because she clearly didn't want to stand for humanity. And in the end she decided to help fight DD, despite her fear of being exposed.

Spoiler

1. If it needs to be explained in the director's cut, then the movie failed.

2. You mean the same Superman who destroyed a Government drone that was following him? Gotcha.

3. So this Batman isn't the World's Greatest Detective? Gotcha.

4. You are incorrect. The African woman explicitly said Superman killed everyone.

5. This is conjecture and speculation. Nothing she or anyone else said proved this.

 

[javonstokess]

The DCU has to give these characters a starting point. An arc. And they have that for Batman, Lex and Supes. Wonder Woman had a period of apathy too.

You can't just throw any arc on a character and expect it to work.

They tried that with the last Affleck superhero movie and it failed. Having Daredevil's arc being to "learn not to kill" didn't make sense and that's why the movie is constantly panned.

Meanwhile, Marvel turns around and has a Daredevil that "cherishes" life and struggles to maintain his moral code and THIS version is a hit.

I wonder why...

 

[FunkMiller]

You can't just throw any arc on a character and expect it to work.

They tried that with the last Affleck superhero movie and it failed. Having Daredevil's arc being to "learn not to kill" didn't make sense and that's why the movie is constantly panned.

Meanwhile, Marvel turns around and has a Daredevil that "cherishes" life and struggles to maintain his moral code and THIS version is a hit.

I wonder why...

This is why I also seriously question Affleck's decision making processes here. Surely at some point it must have occurred to him that he'd be playing out the same bloody character arc that was so poorly received in Daredevil? Isn't this guy supposed to a massive Batman fan?
We're all giving him a bit of a free pass in favour of rightly lambasting Snyder, but Affleck is to blame here as well. He must have read the script and had no problem with Batman's characterisation in this movie. No long term Batman fan thinking there, I feel.

 

[JOE]

I wish DC would have played the long game... Imagine they released a solo Batman movie instead of BvS? Then Suicide Squad, then Wonder Woman... Then BAM! Your BvS movie with each of the trinity having a full movie of development before going in. That was my dream, and Snyder crushed it.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

A solo Batfilm DIRECTED by Ben Affleck with vague teases to a greater DCEU.
Like maybe a database of meta's, but no WW or Superman?

That could have been great. But to be fair, WB didn't let Snyder do anything else (judging from interviews) as soon as Batman entered the equation, all bets became off.

 

[shauner111]

What turned Batman into this version in his mid 40's was the realisation that he has achieved nothing in his life, put one criminal away, another pops up. He very clearly says this to Alfred.
The appearance of Superman just reinforces his fear that his whole life has amounted to nothing, and it's sent him down a more desperate path.
It's well written and very obvious.

So not only did it take the idiot 20 years to come to the realization that criminals are like weeds, but with that mentality, every veteran cop should lose their mind and feel useless once they hit 45. Gotcha.

 

[BatLobster]

So not only did it take the idiot 20 years to come to the realization that criminals are like weeds, but with that mentality, every veteran cop should lose their mind and feel useless once they hit 45. Gotcha.

This is exactly why Bale's Bruce's goal to become a symbol for the city to lift itself out of corruption made a lot of sense. He was always trying to get to the root of the problems plaguing the city, whereas comics Batman/Batfleck spend the majority of their career more concerned with attacking the symptoms.

 

[Micromind]

So not only did it take the idiot 20 years to come to the realization that criminals are like weeds, but with that mentality, every veteran cop should lose their mind and feel useless once they hit 45. Gotcha.

No, he sets himself a bigger goal, to deal with a bigger threat, that of eliminating dangerous alien- Superman, "This will be my legacy".

 

[javonstokess]

No, he sets himself a bigger goal, to deal with a bigger threat, that of eliminating dangerous alien- Superman, "This will be my legacy".

So they dumbed down Batman to allow for a conflict?

Because if he's the World's Greatest Detective then he'd be smart enough to discover Superman's role in stopping the real alien threat and Luthor's "evil schemes".

 

[Micromind]

So they dumbed down Batman to allow for a conflict?

Because if he's the World's Greatest Detective then he'd be smart enough to discover Superman's role in stopping the real alien threat and Luthor's "evil schemes".

You need to watch the movie again.

 

[javonstokess]

You need to watch the movie again.

Why would I subject myself to that? It's stupidity is already seared into my brain.

Example of Batman's stupidity:

Spoiler

1. Stealthly puts a tracker on truck carrying kryptonite. Then proceeds to chase after said truck in the loudest possible Batmobile imaginable, all the while doing everything he can to destroy the truck (and essentially his tracker).
2. Makes gigantic leap of logic that if someone has a 1% chance of "going bad" they probably need to be killed.
3. Makes another gigantic leap of logic in thinking that Superman had anything to do with the destruction of the Congress building just because he got a few scribbled on checks.
4. Attacks and attempts to kill a Superman who is casually walking towards him LOUDLY asking for his help.
5. When attempting to save Martha Kent who's being held hostage in a building full of bad guys, instead of using stealth and guile to infiltrate and save this woman, he decides it's best to empty hundreds of bullets into the building basically hoping she doesn't get hit with a stray. THEN when faced with Martha being threatened by a man holding a flame thrower HE SHOOTS THE FLAME THROWER'S TANK which is about less than a foot away from her.

I could go on, but I'm sure someone will find some rationalization for the above acts of dumb@$$ery.

 

[OutOfBoose]

to javonstokess

Spoiler

1. If it needs to be explained in the director's cut, then the movie failed.

Of course it failed. It's either a perfect masterpiece, or a failure. Binary thinking. Not many defend the theatrical cut, nor am I. Considering what was cut due censorship and time constraints.

2. You mean the same Superman who destroyed a Government drone that was following him? Gotcha.

How is it related to the kryptonian battle ship? Surveillance on his ass - personal matter. If you mean the kryptonian ship he took from the arctic - I don't know. Who claimed it first, I guess. Not that big of a deal.

3. So this Batman isn't the World's Greatest Detective? Gotcha.

Batman was tricked before, wasn't he? He was tricked by Bane and Catwoman, and ended up with a broken spine. He was tricked by the Joker. He was tricked by Ra's. Not to mention countless times in comics...

4. You are incorrect. The African woman explicitly said Superman killed everyone.

Lies. She said - "he came down... so many dead". She didn't explicitly say he killed everyone.

5. This is conjecture and speculation. Nothing she or anyone else said proved this.

It's not. Lex and Finch mention meta-human thesis. Wonder Woman said she abandoned humanity 100 years ago. She was looking for a photo - what for? Why did she board the plane after she saw the files on her and others? Why did she return? If you can't compute 2+2, it's not the film's fault.

 

[The Joker]

So they dumbed down Batman to allow for a conflict?

Because if he's the World's Greatest Detective then he'd be smart enough to discover Superman's role in stopping the real alien threat and Luthor's "evil schemes".

Exactly. The most rudimentary of investigation would have told Batman something that was practically obvious.

 

[javonstokess]

to javonstokess

Spoiler

Of course it failed. It's either a perfect masterpiece, or a failure. Binary thinking. Not many defend the theatrical cut, nor am I. Considering what was cut due censorship and time constraints.
How is it related to the kryptonian battle ship? Surveillance on his ass - personal matter. If you mean the kryptonian ship he took from the arctic - I don't know. Who claimed it first, I guess. Not that big of a deal.
Batman was tricked before, wasn't he? He was tricked by Bane and Catwoman, and ended up with a broken spine. He was tricked by the Joker. He was tricked by Ra's. Not to mention countless times in comics...
Lies. She said - "he came down... so many dead". She didn't explicitly say he killed everyone.
It's not. Lex and Finch mention meta-human thesis. Wonder Woman said she abandoned humanity 100 years ago. She was looking for a photo - what for? Why did she board the plane after she saw the files on her and others? Why did she return? If you can't compute 2+2, it's not the film's fault.

Spoiler

1. I didn't say the film failed, I said they failed in that aspect. No need to put words in my mouth.

2. It's related to the Kryptonian ship because he clearly didn't trust the government (hence him destroying the drone) so why leave the last vestige of his heritage LAYING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY.

3. I have no problem with Batman being tricked, but how was he tricked? His issue with Superman had to do with a lack of research, not anything Luthor did (and really what did he do? Send him some scrawled on checks? Really...). At least with Bane/Catwoman/Talia you could make the arguement that he was rusty from being out of action for years, with the Joker he was at least using detective work and Ra's was the mentor tricking the mentee, but Luthor did NOTHING to sway him to fight Superman. Less than nothing actually.

4. Lies for you. They were blaming the deaths on Superman, not other people killing because of Superman, hence why Lois was investigating the bullet and giving it to the General to clear Superman's name.

5. Once again, you are not explaining what Wonder Woman's actual purpose was in THIS movie outside of "come in at the end and fight Doomsday". She served no purpose but to set up the Justice League movie. She was essentially "Hawkeye in Thor".

 

[FunkMiller]

No, he sets himself a bigger goal, to deal with a bigger threat, that of eliminating dangerous alien- Superman, "This will be my legacy".

The dangerous alien, who, with even the most rudimentary of research, Batman could have discovered was not actually responsible for the destruction of Metropolis?

I love how Man Of Steel takes great pains to show that Superman is the good guy, but then presents us with a Batman in the next film who's too moronic to also understand that.

The truth is, these two had to fight in a movie because WB thought they would earn more money from it. All other considerations - plot, character history, sense - were thrown out of the window. That's why this film fails, and that's why Marvel is kicking DC's ass.

 

[javonstokess]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/batman-v-superman-spoiler-faq-of-justice-1767720335

LMAO!!

Spoiler

This whole scene exists solely so the movie can have the government ask if maybe Superman should be regulated, which exists solely so the government can get involved with Lex Luthor’s attempt to build an anti-Superman weapon, which itself exists solely so the government can say “Hey, stop making that anti-Superman weapon,” which exists solely so Lex can illegally important a big hunk of kryptonite, which exists so Batman can try to steal it in a giant action set piece (where he murders so many people).

 

[shauner111]

The dangerous alien, who, with even the most rudimentary of research, Batman could have discovered was not actually responsible for the destruction of Metropolis?

I love how Man Of Steel takes great pains to show that Superman is the good guy, but then presents us with a Batman in the next film who's too moronic to also understand that.

The truth is, these two had to fight in a movie because WB thought they would earn more money from it. All other considerations - plot, character history, sense - were thrown out of the window. That's why this film fails, and that's why Marvel is kicking DC's ass.

Bingo was his friggin name-o! You can tell they came up with the title, and idea of the two fighting, then Terrio/Snyder worked around that. And probably used Goyers original story for a MOS sequel for scraps when it came to Luthor or the aftermath of Metropolis. How is the audience supposed to get excited for a Justice League when each hero is super cold with each other, mopey about their past, and the leader is a moron. A leader (Batman) who is supposed to be a genius in this universe or else he's useless. UNLESS he's like Nick Fury who has a large team and doesn't get involved in the action. Which is not the case here. Bravo DC.