Batman Vs. Superman Who Would Win

[Drz]

Sadly though, I have to concede that there is a reason that Batman calls him the "Big Blue Boyscout". Superman simply won't bring himself to kill in most cases - some may say to a fault; this would be twice as true considering his relationship with Bruce. As you said, Bats would consider pulling the trigger long before Supes would.

And in this thread we already have discussed how Superman has been much more willing to murder when it's required then Batman. So this argument is based off fan assumptions not based upon reading comics, but taking the words "big blue scout" too seriously.

Batman wins most of the time against Superman because he's prepared to do so. Superman fights with kid gloves all the times he comes up against Batman, and he doesn't take Batman seriously as a threat, but Batman pulls out all the stops to beat him..

Why is your Superman a dumbass who wouldn't take crime fightning and stopping someone seriously? Why is your Superman a slacker and not the fighter for truth, justice and the american way? Thats an insult to Superman as a hero.

Batman uses every possible advantage against Superman, from using X-ray seeking missiles in The Dark Knight Returns to using the power of Metropolis to stun him, Batman gives Superman no quarter, no mercy.

Why doesn't Superman just grab Batman and throw him to space? He's faster than the missiles or electricity.

They approach the battle entirely differently: Superman approaches it like a boxing match (fighting fair), while Batman approaches it like a military battle (anything goes, so long as you win).

By fair you mean he'd be stupid enough to just stand and let missiles and electricity hit him despite him seeing them coming off and he can easily dodge them? Interesting argument.

It's why Batman is Superman's best friend and the only one he would entrust with a Kryptonite ring (an honor that I don't think Lois Lane gets to have): He knows that Batman is the one man who would have the guts and the means to stand up to him should Superman go rogue.

So you admit Superman is tactical enough to trust Batman incase he went rogue, but you can't admit him using his powers to easily overthrown Batman? The bullet is there incase someone like Brainiac takes over him, which has happened. Batman then gets a shot at shooting Superman whos fightning the mind control (much like POison Ivy scenario in Hush), takes whatever gizmo is in Superman, removes the kryptonite and they go beat up Brainiac together.

Reading comics would help your argument, trust me.

 

[KalMart]

Batman would win.



Because it makes for a more interesting story.

Unless Superman wins by outsmarting Batman without using any powers or laying a hand on him....if one would find that interesting.

 

[jthom19802]

I am so sorry I contributed to this thread; I didn't realize...

 

[KalMart]

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[KalMart]

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[JeetKuneDo]

The idea is to emphasize the skill of the combatants by removing the "capability gap". So Superman can't push the planet into the Sun without Batman being able to do the same. By the same token, Batman can't use a smoke grenade to blind Superman without Superman having the same options. Essentially, the idea is what would happen if each combatant has the same cards to play, how would they play them, and who wins.

Again...that's not "Batman vs Superman" when you do that. Pee Wee Herman would be able to fight Bruce Lee fairly if you made Pee Wee one of the greatest martial artists of all time...but that's not Pee Wee, is it?

Batman wins most of the time against Superman because he's prepared to do so. Superman fights with kid gloves all the times he comes up against Batman, and he doesn't take Batman seriously as a threat, but Batman pulls out all the stops to beat him.
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He knows that Batman is the one man who would have the guts and the means to stand up to him should Superman go rogue.

That's where the writers fail. A Superman that is pulling punches obviously isn't "going rogue"....and thus there would be no need for them to fight. The fight shouldn't even be happening. There is a Catch-22 there. They have to pretend Supes would go rogue...but somehow keep "playing fair".

Should Supes ever really go rogue, Batman would never know it. That whole "moving faster than Batman can think" is a problem which can't be "planned" for. Not to mention that Supes doesn't even have to be in the same zip code with Batman to take him out. There is a great line in Watchmen which always pops into my head. "I have walked across the surface of the Sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite."

Writers really are Batman's best friend. Superman doesn't stand a chance...his IQ drops at least 100 points when Batman enters the room apparently. Suddenly a guy who has proven time and again that he can overcome incredible odds to win can't come up with a way to beat a guy in a bat costume with no powers.

Batman would win.



Because it makes for a more interesting story.

That's an interesting reason. It never seems to work when I watch sports though. The best team/player keeps winning whether it is "interesting" or not.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Writers really are Batman's best friend. Superman doesn't stand a chance...his IQ drops at least 100 points when Batman enters the room apparently. Suddenly a guy who has proven time and again that he can overcome incredible odds to win can't come up with a way to beat a guy in a bat costume with no powers.

Agreed. Superman fights a super-intelligent guy named Lex Luthor all the time, and yet he still consistently wins. Why would fighting Batman be any different? I certainly never saw Batman develop a suit of power armor that put him on a level with Superman.

I remember reading a mini-series and for once it got a Superman/Batman fight PARTIALLY right. By partially I mean is that, while Batman wasn't portrayed nearly as cleverly as he should be, likewise it didn't portray Superman as a complete goober. Basically it had Batman running around some rooftops with a kryptonite rock. Superman, of course, used his telescopic vision to see that Batman had a kryptonite rock from miles away. So what does he do? He uses his super-breath to blow the kryptonite rock right out of Batman's hands and into the street. Batman tries to swing down to get it back but before he can reach it Superman grabs the grapelling line and drags Batman halfway across town before slapping him around.

While not the best depiction, the point is that even if one assumes that Batman is vastly more intelligent than Superman (Debateable. There're some portrayals of Superman that put him at super-genius level), it doesn't matter, because he's certainly intelligent enough to use his powers capably in order to avoid any traps which Batman could possibly lay for him, or even beat Batman before he has any clue about what's going on. A Superman who doesn't turn into a complete numbskull when Batman's around is one who should easily clean Batman's clock nine times out of ten, just as he frequently does to Lex Luthor.

 

[KalMart]

That's an interesting reason. It never seems to work when I watch sports though. The best team/player keeps winning whether it is "interesting" or not.

Did you watch the 2007 Super Bowl? The New York Giants were heavy underdogs going up against the New England Patriots who needed only one more win, that win, to have a perfect 19-0 season. Patriots QB Tom Brady and receiver Randy Moss set an all-time single-season record for touchdown passes/receptions earlier in the season. The patriots were averaging something like 35+ points per game, and were poised to be the greatest football team in history.

The Giants won that Superbowl...and it is widely regarded as the greatest Superbowl in history.



Ali vs. Foreman, 1974.


1980 Winter Olympics. Ice Hockey....USA(not even expected to make it past the quarter-finals) vs. Russia(still regarded as the greatest hockey team in history)




It happens. And when it does...it becomes legend. Nice try, though. (j/k)

 

[Drz]

I remember reading a mini-series and for once it got a Superman/Batman fight PARTIALLY right. By partially I mean is that, while Batman wasn't portrayed nearly as cleverly as he should be, likewise it didn't portray Superman as a complete goober. Basically it had Batman running around some rooftops with a kryptonite rock. Superman, of course, used his telescopic vision to see that Batman had a kryptonite rock from miles away. So what does he do? He uses his super-breath to blow the kryptonite rock right out of Batman's hands and into the street. Batman tries to swing down to get it back but before he can reach it Superman grabs the grapelling line and drags Batman halfway across town before slapping him around.

While not the best depiction, the point is that even if one assumes that Batman is vastly more intelligent than Superman (Debateable. There're some portrayals of Superman that put him at super-genius level), it doesn't matter, because he's certainly intelligent enough to use his powers capably in order to avoid any traps which Batman could possibly lay for him, or even beat Batman before he has any clue about what's going on. A Superman who doesn't turn into a complete numbskull when Batman's around is one who should easily clean Batman's clock nine times out of ten, just as he frequently does to Lex Luthor.

Ah Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. =) I purchased the hardcover which actually extends the Batman scene. Superman just takes the kryptonite and destroys it with his fists, thats the thing with Superman, he can ensure not a single atom/piece of Kryptonite would ever get inhaled to his lungs or wound him criticically, he IS Superman after all.

Brian Azzarello is a great writer, sure in both Luthor and Joker hardcovers Batman is a villain, but the way he writes him, Luthor, Joker and the hero Superman is great.

 

[jthom19802]

Should Supes ever really go rogue, Batman would never know it. That whole "moving faster than Batman can think" is a problem which can't be "planned" for. Not to mention that Supes doesn't even have to be in the same zip code with Batman to take him out. There is a great line in Watchmen which always pops into my head. "I have walked across the surface of the Sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite."

This is a fantastic point.

 

[elgaz]

Writers will always try and even the odds and let Batman win 50% of the time.

But really? He hasn't a hope.

For all his money, and gadgets, and technology ................. he's still a human man.

Superman is like a God. He can move as fast as light. He can see things at the atomic level. He can hear Batman's heartbeat coming from hundreds of miles away. And no matter how much Batman can plan or strategise, let's not forget that Superman's intelligence is far, far beyond that of a human and he will likely predict any strategies that Batman could plan. And that's a point that writers don't often dwell on too much, which irritates me slightly ............................ we don't see enough of Superman's mental prowess in stories; they like to simply focus on his physical powers and paint him as a strongman and nothing else.

JeetKuneDo's post above sums it up very well. I love both characters, but let's be realistic - If Superman really truly considered Batman to be a threat to him, he'd be ash long before he got anywhere near Big Blue.

 

[Shazam]

Batman can beat Superman.He has weapons that cna beat a whoel army and all he needs is kryponite gun.

Oops! I melted your little gun with my heat vision.

Oops!! Did I burn off your arms before you could say "ouch"??

 

[Shazam]

Without the help of "writers" who bend over backwards to create a scenario that works to even up things, Batman should always lose.

 

[Godzilla2014]

And in this thread we already have discussed how Superman has been much more willing to murder when it's required then Batman. So this argument is based off fan assumptions not based upon reading comics, but taking the words "big blue scout" too seriously.


Why is your Superman a dumbass who wouldn't take crime fightning and stopping someone seriously? Why is your Superman a slacker and not the fighter for truth, justice and the american way? Thats an insult to Superman as a hero.


Why doesn't Superman just grab Batman and throw him to space? He's faster than the missiles or electricity.


By fair you mean he'd be stupid enough to just stand and let missiles and electricity hit him despite him seeing them coming off and he can easily dodge them? Interesting argument.



So you admit Superman is tactical enough to trust Batman incase he went rogue, but you can't admit him using his powers to easily overthrown Batman? The bullet is there incase someone like Brainiac takes over him, which has happened. Batman then gets a shot at shooting Superman whos fightning the mind control (much like POison Ivy scenario in Hush), takes whatever gizmo is in Superman, removes the kryptonite and they go beat up Brainiac together.

Reading comics would help your argument, trust me.

Yes, Superman could easily wipe Batman off the face of the planet, but the thing is he really doesn't want to. So he pulls his punches, doesn't vaporize him with heat rays, et cetera. Superman isn't a dumbass, but when he fights Batman, he's trying to do as little physical harm to Bruce as possible, because he doesn't want to kill Bruce, which may even override his desire to win. Batman doesn't want to kill Clark, but he knows that more than likely, whatever he throws at Superman, he can survive, so he can pull out all the stops to defeat him. Also, Superman's power level does vary with incarnation, so keep this in mind in the battle.

Again, Batman and Superman's friendship is based on the fact that, Batman is more on Superman's level in terms of respect (he wasn't inspired by Superman, unlike many other heroes in the DC Universe) and he would have the balls to stand up to Clark if he went rogue. Most of the heroes who look up to him might think, "There's no way I could stop him", but Batman would go through with it.

Batman would win.



Because it makes for a more interesting story.

Unless Superman wins by outsmarting Batman without using any powers or laying a hand on him....if one would find that interesting.

Agreed.

Again...that's not "Batman vs Superman" when you do that. Pee Wee Herman would be able to fight Bruce Lee fairly if you made Pee Wee one of the greatest martial artists of all time...but that's not Pee Wee, is it?

The part I like about is that boils down to how each one fights and thinks, which is more interesting than "Superman vaporizes Batman with heat vision. The end." It's about them as characters and not their powers. Also, you're analogy is a bit flawed, as both Batman and Superman are two of the greatest superheroes of all time (if not the greatest), but while Bruce Lee is a martial artist, Pee Wee Herman is a comedic routine character. Thus, I don't think the analogy works that well.

That's where the writers fail. A Superman that is pulling punches obviously isn't "going rogue"....and thus there would be no need for them to fight. The fight shouldn't even be happening. There is a Catch-22 there. They have to pretend Supes would go rogue...but somehow keep "playing fair".

Should Supes ever really go rogue, Batman would never know it. That whole "moving faster than Batman can think" is a problem which can't be "planned" for. Not to mention that Supes doesn't even have to be in the same zip code with Batman to take him out. There is a great line in Watchmen which always pops into my head. "I have walked across the surface of the Sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite."

Writers really are Batman's best friend. Superman doesn't stand a chance...his IQ drops at least 100 points when Batman enters the room apparently. Suddenly a guy who has proven time and again that he can overcome incredible odds to win can't come up with a way to beat a guy in a bat costume with no powers.

The thing about a Batman vs Superman battle is that, Superman should win, but he doesn't because he's really nervous of injuring Batman, because of his power, while Batman doesn't have that problem precisely because Superman is nigh-invulnerable. Batman could pull out all the stops to win, without resorting to killing Superman, but Superman could not.

As far as if Superman went rogue, he would at least oppose him, unlike many other heroes in the DCU who admire Superman and they wouldn't have the guts to oppose him. Though I do admit, in most, if not all of their battles, Superman isn't rogue, but has been put at odds against Batman for some reason or another.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Did you watch the 2007 Super Bowl? The New York Giants were heavy underdogs going up against the New England Patriots who needed only one more win, that win, to have a perfect 19-0 season. Patriots QB Tom Brady and receiver Randy Moss set an all-time single-season record for touchdown passes/receptions earlier in the season. The patriots were averaging something like 35+ points per game, and were poised to be the greatest football team in history.

The Giants won that Superbowl...and it is widely regarded as the greatest Superbowl in history.



Ali vs. Foreman, 1974.


1980 Winter Olympics. Ice Hockey....USA(not even expected to make it past the quarter-finals) vs. Russia(still regarded as the greatest hockey team in history)




It happens. And when it does...it becomes legend. Nice try, though. (j/k)

The flaw in that comparison is that Batman is not near enough to Superman to give him a fight. With the other famous upsets there is a chance at least. You can easily believe that the Patriots could have a bad day/Giants have a great day and the Giants would win 1 or 2 times out of 10. But would a team of termites dressed in football uniforms ever beat that Patriots team? I say they play 10,000,000 times and the Patriots win every game. That's the disparity we are talking about here.

Yes, Superman could easily wipe Batman off the face of the planet, but the thing is he really doesn't want to. So he pulls his punches, doesn't vaporize him with heat rays, et cetera. Superman isn't a dumbass, but when he fights Batman, he's trying to do as little physical harm to Bruce as possible, because he doesn't want to kill Bruce, which may even override his desire to win.

That's not a rogue Superman though. Thus...they wouldn't be fighting the first place.

Also, you're analogy is a bit flawed, as both Batman and Superman are two of the greatest superheroes of all time (if not the greatest), but while Bruce Lee is a martial artist, Pee Wee Herman is a comedic routine character. Thus, I don't think the analogy works that well.

Actually a decent point. It should be Bruce Lee vs a flea to be comparable to the power disparity between Superman and Batman.

The thing about a Batman vs Superman battle is that, Superman should win, but he doesn't because he's really nervous of injuring Batman, because of his power, while Batman doesn't have that problem precisely because Superman is nigh-invulnerable. Batman could pull out all the stops to win, without resorting to killing Superman, but Superman could not.

That's not a rogue Superman though. t:

 

[KalMart]

The flaw in that comparison is that Batman is not near enough to Superman to give him a fight. With the other famous upsets there is a chance at least. You can easily believe that the Patriots could have a bad day/Giants have a great day and the Giants would win 1 or 2 times out of 10. But would a team of termites dressed in football uniforms ever beat that Patriots team?

If the termites were as smart as Batman, they might find a way...swarm and eat their flesh, etc. Obviously, if we're talking about a straight-on physical contest, then no, Bats wouldn't last a second against Supes. And again...it wouldn't be that interesting anyway.

But if we're talking a broader conflict between them, then you can look at other examples of when Superman has had trouble with other human foes, as others have brought up. And I think it's safe to assume that Batman wouldn't be dumb enough to stumble into a straight-on fight with Superman, precisely because he understands and respects Superman's power. So...who would win in a 'fight'? Depends on what kind of fight. If Batman somehow decided to devote the rest of his life to eliminating Superman...building his plan for as long as it took...could he do it? Possibly. Could he just wander out into the streets and tell Supes to bring it on, and win? No. But again, there'd be no point in imagining that kind of fight anyway.

 

[Drz]

Yes, Superman could easily wipe Batman off the face of the planet, but the thing is he really doesn't want to. So he pulls his punches, doesn't vaporize him with heat rays, et cetera. Superman isn't a dumbass, but when he fights Batman, he's trying to do as little physical harm to Bruce as possible, because he doesn't want to kill Bruce, which may even override his desire to win. Batman doesn't want to kill Clark, but he knows that more than likely, whatever he throws at Superman, he can survive, so he can pull out all the stops to defeat him. Also, Superman's power level does vary with incarnation, so keep this in mind in the battle.

Theres not much strenght required if he wants to knockout Batman. He can just put a tranquilizer on Batman, after all Superman is faster then a bullet, there see how easy everything is for Superman when it comes to winning over Batman? Why not just punch him in the torso?

Again, Batman and Superman's friendship is based on the fact that, Batman is more on Superman's level in terms of respect (he wasn't inspired by Superman, unlike many other heroes in the DC Universe) and he would have the balls to stand up to Clark if he went rogue. Most of the heroes who look up to him might think, "There's no way I could stop him", but Batman would go through with it.

Will and determination don't querantee a win. It doesn't give you a plot device armor where you win.

The thing about a Batman vs Superman battle is that, Superman should win, but he doesn't because he's really nervous of injuring Batman, because of his power, while Batman doesn't have that problem precisely because Superman is nigh-invulnerable. Batman could pull out all the stops to win, without resorting to killing Superman, but Superman could not.

Why should Superman remain nervous when he can defeat Batman withouth everlasting injuries? Even if Superman punched and broke Batman's spine, you can easily get a nice spine in comic book world, thats what happened with Batman's son when a villain shot 3 bullets thru it.

But if we're talking a broader conflict between them, then you can look at other examples of when Superman has had trouble with other human foes, as others have brought up. And I think it's safe to assume that Batman wouldn't be dumb enough to stumble into a straight-on fight with Superman, precisely because he understands and respects Superman's power. So...who would win in a 'fight'? Depends on what kind of fight. If Batman somehow decided to devote the rest of his life to eliminating Superman...building his plan for as long as it took...could he do it? Possibly. Could he just wander out into the streets and tell Supes to bring it on, and win? No. But again, there'd be no point in imagining that kind of fight anyway.

And what sorta deus ex machina gun/machine could Batman ever make that Superman couldn't outdo or win over? You can't really beat Supes when it comes to the power of SCIENCE!

 

[Godzilla2014]

The flaw in that comparison is that Batman is not near enough to Superman to give him a fight. With the other famous upsets there is a chance at least. You can easily believe that the Patriots could have a bad day/Giants have a great day and the Giants would win 1 or 2 times out of 10. But would a team of termites dressed in football uniforms ever beat that Patriots team? I say they play 10,000,000 times and the Patriots win every game. That's the disparity we are talking about here.

On the issue of the power disparity, a big factor that I don't see often mentioned in this thread by those in favor of Superman is that his power level and weaknesses varies between incarnation, and overall, he lacks consistency. Not every Superman incarnation can move planets or fly faster than the speed of light. Some have superhuman intelligence, others are of only above-average human intellect. That inconsistency is a big x-factor in the fight. Some of them, such as The Dark Knight Returns Superman, Batman can beat. Others, such as All-Star Superman, I doubt he could.

Off topic, but what about Lex Luthor: If him beating Superman is utterly impossible (because if it's true for Batman, then it is doubly so for Lex), then is there any point in him being Superman's archenemy? Doesn't that remove any suspense from their battles?

That's not a rogue Superman though. Thus...they wouldn't be fighting the first place.

Which I brought up later in the post. When they fight, usually it isn't because Superman has gone rogue, it's that the situation has put them at odds with each other.

Actually a decent point. It should be Bruce Lee vs a flea to be comparable to the power disparity between Superman and Batman.

Still, the point of removing the capability gap so that it there wouldn't be such a huge power disparity. They would have the same options in this hypothetical battle, so it would just be down to how they use them, the way they fight and think.

That's not a rogue Superman though. t:

True. If Superman went rogue, I think that Batman would probably find any possible preparations, such as powered armor or assembling a resistance to assist him, et cetera.

 

[Godzilla2014]

If the termites were as smart as Batman, they might find a way...swarm and eat their flesh, etc. Obviously, if we're talking about a straight-on physical contest, then no, Bats wouldn't last a second against Supes. And again...it wouldn't be that interesting anyway.

But if we're talking a broader conflict between them, then you can look at other examples of when Superman has had trouble with other human foes, as others have brought up. And I think it's safe to assume that Batman wouldn't be dumb enough to stumble into a straight-on fight with Superman, precisely because he understands and respects Superman's power. So...who would win in a 'fight'? Depends on what kind of fight. If Batman somehow decided to devote the rest of his life to eliminating Superman...building his plan for as long as it took...could he do it? Possibly. Could he just wander out into the streets and tell Supes to bring it on, and win? No. But again, there'd be no point in imagining that kind of fight anyway.

Agreed. If it is entirely impossible for Batman, a billionaire genius human, to win against Superman, then Lex Luthor, a billionaire genius human, has no business being Superman's archenemy, because there's no way for Lex to even possibly win, and therefore, no suspense, and nothing at stake.

Theres not much strenght required if he wants to knockout Batman. He can just put a tranquilizer on Batman, after all Superman is faster then a bullet, there see how easy everything is for Superman when it comes to winning over Batman? Why not just punch him in the torso?

That's because Superman doesn't come nearly as prepared to the battle as Batman does. Batman will do anything to beat Superman, but not vice a versa.

Will and determination don't querantee a win. It doesn't give you a plot device armor where you win.

I never said that. Batman's will and determination means that he does all he can to stack the odds in his favor.

Why should Superman remain nervous when he can defeat Batman withouth everlasting injuries? Even if Superman punched and broke Batman's spine, you can easily get a nice spine in comic book world, thats what happened with Batman's son when a villain shot 3 bullets thru it.

That's what they show in the comic books. He holds back, because he's nervous about harming Bruce. He would much rather defeat him with minimal contact, because with every blow, comes a risk of completely devastating damage to Bruce. He worries about this to point that can cost him the battle with Batman. He thinks more about what he can't do than what he can do. That's who Superman is as a person.

And what sorta deus ex machina gun/machine could Batman ever make that Superman couldn't outdo or win over? You can't really beat Supes when it comes to the power of SCIENCE!

Batman can. Batman can pretty much make whatever he needs. Being a billionaire has its upside like that. He could make a powered suit of armor, to endure Superman's assault, similarly to The Dark Knight Returns. He could hire a magician to weaken Superman, and get Kryptonite if he needs to.

 

[KalMart]

Agreed. If it is entirely impossible for Batman, a billionaire genius human, to win against Superman, then Lex Luthor, a billionaire genius human, has no business being Superman's archenemy, because there's no way for Lex to even possibly win, and therefore, no suspense, and nothing at stake.

And what sorta deus ex machina gun/machine could Batman ever make that Superman couldn't outdo or win over? You can't really beat Supes when it comes to the power of SCIENCE!

That's why he wouldn't do it with that.

But in all honesty, the big reason why I don't think Batman would ever beat Superman in some sort of conflict is not necessarily because he couldn't...but because it might require him to adopt some pretty awful methods to do so, lines that Batman just can't cross. Would Batman be able to sacrifice innocent lives on opposite ends of the Earth for the sake of dividing Superman's attention, etc? I would think that at his core, Batman is a hero...and if he really wanted to ensure defeating Superman, it may have to come down to him being a monster. Batman's brain, resources and ability with, perhaps, Joker's psychosis and complete lack of value for life.

So to the earlier question...what separates Luthor from Batman...and what would make Luthor more capable of challenging or even beating Superman? Well...Luthor is ^%$#'ing evil...he'd let a young child get killed if it helped him, Batman wouldn't. So if it came to something like that, Batman wouldn't cross that line, whereas Luthor would leap it without hesitation.

 

[Drz]

Agreed. If it is entirely impossible for Batman, a billionaire genius human, to win against Superman, then Lex Luthor, a billionaire genius human, has no business being Superman's archenemy, because there's no way for Lex to even possibly win, and therefore, no suspense, and nothing at stake.

And Luthor never has won, even in All Star Superman it's Superman who wins and receives a happy ending, sure All Star doesn't actually show what happens in DC One Million, but Superman ends up happily living with his wife Lois Lane in new Krypton with his father.

That's because Superman doesn't come nearly as prepared to the battle as Batman does. Batman will do anything to beat Superman, but not vice a versa.

The fact you keep arguing that Superman would SLACK as being himself is really starting to grow old. Superman isn't some christ like figure who lets him get punished, no he's a fighter and he does not underestimate anything, everything is worth a respect and murder is a no no for him.

That's what they show in the comic books. He holds back, because he's nervous about harming Bruce. He would much rather defeat him with minimal contact, because with every blow, comes a risk of completely devastating damage to Bruce. He worries about this to point that can cost him the battle with Batman. He thinks more about what he can't do than what he can do. That's who Superman is as a person.

May i see these comic books you're mentioning then? Citations to provide a convincing argument, you know. And again it doesn't requrie any superstrenght to knock him out, don't ignore that whatsoever. Superman knows his limits, also another non violent answer would be pretty much flying to the ocean and getting Batman pass out, or to space. Then just get him back down.

Batman can. Batman can pretty much make whatever he needs.

Oh and what plot device would he create that Superman can't possible counter? Go on, make an example for our amusement.

He could hire a magician to weaken Superman, and get Kryptonite if he needs to.

Ah so Batman would ask help but Superman wouldn't? And what good is Kryptonite when Superman can just eye beam it to dust?

 

[Godzilla2014]

And Luthor never has won, even in All Star Superman it's Superman who wins and receives a happy ending, sure All Star doesn't actually show what happens in DC One Million, but Superman ends up happily living with his wife Lois Lane in new Krypton with his father.

What I am saying is that if it's not even possible for Lex Luthor to win or for Superman to lose no matter what, that's incredibly boring. It's the kind of thing that makes Batman much more popular than him, which is the reason he wins all of the time.

The fact you keep arguing that Superman would SLACK as being himself is really starting to grow old. Superman isn't some christ like figure who lets him get punished, no he's a fighter and he does not underestimate anything, everything is worth a respect and murder is a no no for him.

I never said he would let himself get punished. I said that he underestimates Batman because he has powers. He is fallible, and to him our world is made of cardboard, so he underestimates human durability to be on the safe side. He is strong enough to leave his fingerprints in steel, so it's understandable that he would be nervous about how much harm he does to Bruce.

May i see these comic books you're mentioning then? Citations to provide a convincing argument, you know. And again it doesn't requrie any superstrenght to knock him out, don't ignore that whatsoever. Superman knows his limits, also another non violent answer would be pretty much flying to the ocean and getting Batman pass out, or to space. Then just get him back down.

The Dark Knight Returns and maybe Hush, the two times I can remember seeing them fight offhand.

Oh and what plot device would he create that Superman can't possible counter? Go on, make an example for our amusement.

First off: What Superman could or could not counter varies greatly on the incarnation of Superman, as well as the conditions in relation to prep time and what have you. For example, while Superman may have a anti-Kryptonite suit, if he can't produce it, then he can't counter a Kryptonite attack.
Also, Batman would probably surprise him with the device, so even if Superman could make something else to counter it, he wouldn't even know about Batman's device until the battle has already started.
Hell, I'll admit that I don't know all of what that Superman can counter. But I will tell you that he's not this Tony Stark type that you make him out to be. More often than not, he uses his powers to win, and not the technology he can create.

Ah so Batman would ask help but Superman wouldn't? And what good is Kryptonite when Superman can just eye beam it to dust?

What? Where did I say that Superman couldn't ask for help? Also, I don't recall Superman ever melting Kryptonite with his heat beams, because if the Kryptonite isn't encased in lead or other such dense materials, it going to kill him and kill his powers. He couldn't see the Kryptonite (even with X-ray vision) without suffering from its effects.

 

[Drz]

What I am saying is that if it's not even possible for Lex Luthor to win or for Superman to lose no matter what, that's incredibly boring. It's the kind of thing that makes Batman much more popular than him, which is the reason he wins all of the time.

Wins at what? Also the very same argument goes to pretty much all heroes, when have you seen Joker win over Batman? Ras' al Ghul? Two-Face? Villains have caused sorrow to these heroes for both Superman and Batman, grief and sorrow, but you they can't break their wills or manage to kill them, thats why you got writers having them torture them other ways, such as ruining their reputation or framing someone. Heroes win villains, they have been doing this since the 1930s.

I never said he would let himself get punished. I said that he underestimates Batman because he has powers.

So again Superman wouldn't act like himself, i grow tired of this argument, how about we put it this way: Show me comics where Superman would ever underestimate a threath/villain/situation simply because it's done by a homo sapien. I'll be looking for those citations.

so it's understandable that he would be nervous about how much harm he does to Bruce.

Except that you ignore my posts and try to claim Superman wouldn't know his own strenght, which is inaccurate. Superman knows his limits and this is why people don't hit a brick fall when they're falling and Superman grabs them. You're now using someone like Superman, but who ISN'T Superman as your base of arguments.

The Dark Knight Returns and maybe Hush, the two times I can remember seeing them fight offhand.

Oh wow a reference to Hush where Batman is saving Superman from mind control and Superman is fightning the mind control written by Jeph Loeb, mind i remind you that in Superman/Batman they had the same story except that it was Kryptonited Batman being mind controlled and Superman had to save him from the mind control, while Batman was fightning it.

Now TDKR doens't even work as your argument when Superman is pretty much letting Batman break his bones when he's allowing Batman to punch him, if your argument had any truth to it, wouldn't Superman *not* get close to Batman so he *wouldn't* get himself hurt? All Clark was thinking when Batman refused to listen to him was "Bruce c'mon you're hurting yourself, give up" and all Batman was thinking was "Ima beat ya and show whos the king!" then Batman gets a heart attack, Superman knows its a plan later on and lets him fight the government which they both takedown together in TDKSA. But again if your argument had any weight in it, wouldn't Clark NOT allow Batman to punch Superman, because that way his bones wouldn't break?

First off: What Superman could or could not counter varies greatly on the incarnation of Superman, as well as the conditions in relation to prep time and what have you. For example, while Superman may have a anti-Kryptonite suit, if he can't produce it, then he can't counter a Kryptonite attack.

Oh so what incarnation would be the dumb one to not prepare himself againts a villanous attack?

Also, Batman would probably surprise him with the device

A device that does what?

so even if Superman could make something else to counter it

Well since you wanna take different incarnations, i choose you Silver Age Superman! Time travel spell, go!

he wouldn't even know about Batman's device until the battle has already started.

Implying Superman wouldn't use his eyes to check Batman's eguipment.

Also, I don't recall Superman ever melting Kryptonite with his heat beams

For example in Infinite Crisis #3 Earth-2 Superman and Earth-1 Batman confront, Bruce takes the ring just incase and Superman just destroys it with his beam stating "the ring presents mistrust and paranoia" which he was sickened about, then you got Luthor story from Brian Azzarello where Superman shows that he is the boss:

You don't mess with Superman when you're only human.

because if the Kryptonite isn't encased in lead or other such dense materials, it going to kill him and kill his powers.

Oh sure a huge junk, no sun and Superman doing nothing, but how do you *get* that there? Why can't Superman stop it? You need to give the proper arguments how Batman would get so much huge amount of Kryptonote on Superman, he can't sneak upon him.

He couldn't see the Kryptonite (even with X-ray vision) without suffering from its effects.

What? The radiation CANNOT pass thru the lead and Superman would certainly know what the lead would contain, he can see *the* lead, he knows whats inside there and let me tell you, Superman wouldn't think it's a early/late birthday gift.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Wins at what? Also the very same argument goes to pretty much all heroes, when have you seen Joker win over Batman? Ras' al Ghul? Two-Face? Villains have caused sorrow to these heroes for both Superman and Batman, grief and sorrow, but you they can't break their wills or manage to kill them, thats why you got writers having them torture them other ways, such as ruining their reputation or framing someone. Heroes win villains, they have been doing this since the 1930s.

No. I was that if it weren't possible for Superman to lose, not the actuality of Superman losing a battle with Lex Luthor. When Batman fights Joker, there is a distinct possibly that, if Batman doesn't keep his game up, he could lose the battle and possibly his life. While he does win, it's not at all a given (at least from his perspective). When Superman fights Lex Luthor, there should be a chance (again, from the characters' perspectives) that Lex could win if Superman screws up.

So again Superman wouldn't act like himself, i grow tired of this argument, how about we put it this way: Show me comics where Superman would ever underestimate a threath/villain/situation simply because it's done by a homo sapien. I'll be looking for those citations.
Except that you ignore my posts and try to claim Superman wouldn't know his own strenght, which is inaccurate. Superman knows his limits and this is why people don't hit a brick fall when they're falling and Superman grabs them. You're now using someone like Superman, but who ISN'T Superman as your base of arguments.

Ok. Superman knows his own strength, but he does indeed, hold back with Batman, the main reason he doesn't either freeze him with his freezing breath or burn him with optical heat rays. He's trying to fight fair, but Batman isn't. So the rings and what not. Hell, he might even learn magic to exploit that weakness.

Oh wow a reference to Hush where Batman is saving Superman from mind control and Superman is fightning the mind control written by Jeph Loeb, mind i remind you that in Superman/Batman they had the same story except that it was Kryptonited Batman being mind controlled and Superman had to save him from the mind control, while Batman was fightning it.

While I didn't read the latter story, I still say that the Hush battle is a valid example of how Batman fights Superman in methods if not in outcome.

Now TDKR doens't even work as your argument when Superman is pretty much letting Batman break his bones when he's allowing Batman to punch him, if your argument had any truth to it, wouldn't Superman *not* get close to Batman so he *wouldn't* get himself hurt? All Clark was thinking when Batman refused to listen to him was "Bruce c'mon you're hurting yourself, give up" and all Batman was thinking was "Ima beat ya and show whos the king!" then Batman gets a heart attack, Superman knows its a plan later on and lets him fight the government which they both takedown together in TDKSA. But again if your argument had any weight in it, wouldn't Clark NOT allow Batman to punch Superman, because that way his bones wouldn't break?

Batman doesn't usually resort to punching Superman often, unless he has extra armor.

Oh so what incarnation would be the dumb one to not prepare himself againts a villanous attack?

I didn't say that he wouldn't, just that what he could do to counter it would vary from incarnation to incarnation.

A device that does what?Well since you wanna take different incarnations, i choose you Silver Age Superman! Time travel spell, go!

I don't ****ing know. The idea is whatever he uses.

Implying Superman wouldn't use his eyes to check Batman's eguipment.
For example in Infinite Crisis #3 Earth-2 Superman and Earth-1 Batman confront, Bruce takes the ring just incase and Superman just destroys it with his beam stating "the ring presents mistrust and paranoia" which he was sickened about, then you got Luthor story from Brian Azzarello where Superman shows that he is the boss:

You don't mess with Superman when you're only human.

Batman could line it with lead and put "**** YOU KAL-EL!" on the front of the lining. Or better yet, line each and every compartment of the utility belt with lead, so that he has no idea what he is carrying.

Also, Most of the time, I don't think Superman uses his heat vision on Batman, mostly because that would seriously burn Batman, even if it hits the Kryptonite, just by the sheer radiation of the heat, depending on the the temperature of the beam.

Oh sure a huge junk, no sun and Superman doing nothing, but how do you *get* that there? Why can't Superman stop it? You need to give the proper arguments how Batman would get so much huge amount of Kryptonote on Superman, he can't sneak upon him.

It doesn't matter if the Sun is out or not if Superman is being poisoned by Kryptonite.

What? The radiation CANNOT pass thru the lead and Superman would certainly know what the lead would contain, he can see *the* lead, he knows whats inside there and let me tell you, Superman wouldn't think it's a early/late birthday gift.

I know it cannot pass through lead. Also, he could simply line each and every compartment with lead to confuse Superman. There is also magic, which I don't think Superman can counter. Then again, I admit that it is a SWAG, if only to make this actually interesting.

Overall though, I am not really a fan of having them fight all the time, since I prefer them as friends, not enemies.

 

[Drz]

No. I was that if it weren't possible for Superman to lose, not the actuality of Superman losing a battle with Lex Luthor. When Batman fights Joker, there is a distinct possibly that, if Batman doesn't keep his game up, he could lose the battle and possibly his life. While he does win, it's not at all a given (at least from his perspective). When Superman fights Lex Luthor, there should be a chance (again, from the characters' perspectives) that Lex could win if Superman screws up.

Both Batman and Superman always give their full attention to being superheroes, don't demean Superman when you can't even justify it with comics, it's disloyal and dishonest for you to keep arguing how Batman can achieve anything, defeat anyone and give the idea that Superman is a dumbass, slacker and just not smart on anything. It's getting tiresome for me and it's starting to stop being funny aswell.

Ok. Superman knows his own strength, but he does indeed, hold back with Batman, the main reason he doesn't either freeze him with his freezing breath or burn him with optical heat rays. He's trying to fight fair, but Batman isn't. So the rings and what not. Hell, he might even learn magic to exploit that weakness.

Give me a single comic where Superman would ever do that. This isn't Superman, this is YOUR Sueprman.

While I didn't read the latter story, I still say that the Hush battle is a valid example of how Batman fights Superman in methods if not in outcome.

Yeah except that if it wasn't for Superman fightning himself, he'd have just speeded up to Batman and killed him, you completely ignore the fact mindcontrolled heroes are fightning the mind control.

Batman doesn't usually resort to punching Superman often, unless he has extra armor.

Even in TDKR he had extra armor and it ended up him having broken bones, limbs and whatnot.

I don't ****ing know. The idea is whatever he uses.

What a convincing argument. =)

Batman could line it with lead and put "**** YOU KAL-EL!" on the front of the lining. Or better yet, line each and every compartment of the utility belt with lead, so that he has no idea what he is carrying.

Are you implying Superman has a hard time to use his speed to just take the belt and destroy the kryptonite? What is this? Superman the slowest man of steel?

Also, Most of the time, I don't think Superman uses his heat vision on Batman, mostly because that would seriously burn Batman, even if it hits the Kryptonite, just by the sheer radiation of the heat, depending on the the temperature of the beam.

No it doesn't burn Batman's fingers or anything due to the gloves, nor is Superman's heat even radiactive or anything and again: Superman knows his limits, he isn't a child who doesn't know what can hurt and what doesn't.

It doesn't matter if the Sun is out or not if Superman is being poisoned by Kryptonite.

And it doesn't matter if Batman has kryptonite or not when he can't get it anywhere near Superman.

I know it cannot pass through lead. Also, he could simply line each and every compartment with lead to confuse Superman.

Yes because the man who can run as fast as speed of light would just stand confused, clearly.