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Comics Ben Reilly...returns?!

Originally posted by November Rain:

Truth be told, I wouldn't have started collecting spidey comics if i hadn't come across the clone saga at the time i did.

Truth be told, ben reilly showed some serious heart in his short years and his relationship with parker is nothing short of legendary. I wished spidey had become a father, Ben was the perfect way of showing a care free spidey in comparison to one which had grown up. Especially now.

the relationship i would have seen between ben and peter would have been similar to the one between buffy and faith. They are both slayers but one is a vampire slayer and the other one is THE SLAYER. Hence how spidey manages to go through the events of the other and reilly doesn't because he isn't the chosen ones. They are both at different points in their lives with different pasts and different views on things. They are also the same yet very different. I don't know how anyone can describe Ben as crappy. some of his interactions with peter as well as with his supporting cast have been some of the best pieces of writing i've seen today.

It's a shame that the loss of parker's baby and ben are never mentioned, especially at times when ezekiel turns up and peter pratically denies ever having fought along someone with similar powers to himself (even though he's done it with TWO different people). pity.

In all fairness, unless he's spiderman again, i wouldn't want him around (perhaps only as scarlet for a short time). As much as it pained me to see him go, I'm one of the few who thought his demise and norman's return was done well and it's a shame his efforts aren't acknowledged. Saying this, to have him comeback would cheapen his previous efforts because i just don't think they write characters the way they used to.


Amen brother, Amen. I feel the same way, I owe my comic collecting to two things: 1. The Spider-Man Animated Series 2. the Clone Saga. Im 18 so i basically grew up when the clone saga was in full effect and started collecting then and i remember being fascinated with this story ( although i was very very confused it took me a while to figure out the gist of the story and which spiderman was which). Anyway my point is Ben Reilly WAS an incredible character and he represented what Peter once was. Plus the two made a great team fighting side by side, i would love to see that again..
 
spidey-dude said:
clearly that wasnt the case, i mean for god sakes the writers have even admitted it was a freakin mistake to have him disintergrate, even they admitted that wasnt how ben would die, but they were made to end it like that


However...they WERE told to kill him, weren't they?

Look, I don't care that the writers were told to have him disintegrate...I was just trying to find a way to explain it within continuity without blaming somthing on faulty workmanship. Simple as that. Either way, Ben is pretty freakin' dead.

As for the actual appearance in FNSM#14, I'm still willign to bet that we're getting our panties in a bunch over nothing. It's probably Ben showing up in a chapter of the book where Deb Whitman is talking about a different Spider-Man taking over for Peter or something while Peter and MJ took some time away from the scene to have their baby, who is more neglected in modern continuity than Ben, Kaine, and every clone ever.
 
your prolly right Shinlyle, i mean if Ben really was coming back, I think Marvel would be doing some serious hype surounding FNSM #14, the solicitation shows no sign of anything "big" happening in that issue...
 
Lt. Figgnuts said:
If you read "Life of Reilly," when it came time to give commentary on ASM #400, the editors at the time figured that May would have pieced it together sometime around ASM #200 (the burglar issue), even though it wasn't explicitly stated in the issue.

Two things:

1. That was never specified in the story. May claimed she always knew.
2. May still expressed hate towards Spider-Man after ASM #200 as well.

May learning Peter's secret after his battle with Morlun was much better.
 
shame the character of may is terrible really now ( i mean what shes de-aged by like 10-20 years magically!) and that asm 400 was such an amazing and emotional issue
 
kguillou said:
your prolly right Shinlyle, i mean if Ben really was coming back, I think Marvel would be doing some serious hype surounding FNSM #14, the solicitation shows no sign of anything "big" happening in that issue...

My thing is, as much as Joey Q LOVES stirring the s*** amongst the comics community, you KNOW he would have pimped this months in advance. If it involved the return of Ben Reilly to the land of the living, then it would have been built up and talked about for months ahead of time so that we could get used to the idea of yet ANOTHER shocking event before it actually happens.

I'm going ot watch Newsarama.com and see if he comments on it in "Joe Friday's" this coming Friday. If there's even a hint of truth to it, he'll be running off at the mouth like always....
 
I never understood why May and Ben were so freakin' old to begin with. They're supposed to be his aunt/uncle, not his g'rents.
 
Yeah, I too secretly believe somewhere inside that the issue will just be a Deb Whitman POV story- the issue will essentially be her book, and Ben will come up when someone says something like "How could Peter be Spiderman... here's Peter in Florida & Spiderman in NY!" And she will simply put in something about a secondary SM running around.. Ben.

But I'm still hoping!
 
I'll call it here...Peter will dye his hair blonde and go by the name of Ben Reilly, thus wiping out the Spider-Man unmasking thing along with the marriage.
 
I call it here...MJ will be a clone of Ben Reilly, thus wiping out the mariage and hetero thing.
 
Doc Ock said:
Two things:

1. That was never specified in the story. May claimed she always knew.
2. May still expressed hate towards Spider-Man after ASM #200 as well.

May learning Peter's secret after his battle with Morlun was much better.

Now, I haven't read the issue in quite a while, but I don't recall her ever specifically stating when she knew. Saying something like "I've always known" doesn't necessarily mean, "Oh, Peter, don't you know I've known since (Amazing Fantasy #15)?" or "I've known since (Amazing Spider-Man #11)?" It could just be a way of saying, "Hey, you know, I've known for a while" or "I've had my suspicions."

As for the hatred thing, there's really no way to argue with you there. I'm pretty sure Glenn Greenberg said it was supposed to have been around ASM #200, but it could have easily been another issue (I know it was a centennial).

I do agree, though, that for the most part the way they handled that portion of the story was done better in JMS' hands than...whoever was writing ASM at the time (DeMattis?). With JMS, we got a whole fat issue of conversation between the two, and in ASM #400 it was like "Hey, Peter, I know! -croak-" because her knowing Peter's secret -wasn't- the focus of the issue.

Any continuity blunders aside, you can't argue that ASM #400 wasn't touching simply as a story about a son saying goodbye to his mother. How can you -not- feel something looking at that page of Peter crouched over May's lifeless body?
 
It was much more like Leia in Star Wars telling Luke "I've always known" about him being her brother. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have made out with him a year or two earliar if that was really the case.

Sure, HER finding OUT was handled better in JMS's version, but that's only because it was never going to be an issue in the original reveal. It was a last confession on Peter's part, that last chance to say what really matters. And at the end of the day it's not that he kept it secret that mattered, but just that he had done good things with his life and that no one was more responsible for that than May. ASM400 is one of the, if not the, most beautiful stories to ever come from the Spiderman label.
 
shinlyle said:
My thing is, as much as Joey Q LOVES stirring the s*** amongst the comics community, you KNOW he would have pimped this months in advance. If it involved the return of Ben Reilly to the land of the living, then it would have been built up and talked about for months ahead of time so that we could get used to the idea of yet ANOTHER shocking event before it actually happens.

I'm going ot watch Newsarama.com and see if he comments on it in "Joe Friday's" this coming Friday. If there's even a hint of truth to it, he'll be running off at the mouth like always....

He kinda did. It's called "The Other". I think that was enough time for fans to get warmed up to the idea, especially considering the boards were filled with Reilly speculation at the time. The Varient Covers sold well too. Here's my eleventh reason for thinking that now's a good time for a Reilly comeback:

11. None of us REALLY think it's gonna happen: Which is why it would be the most opportune time. I'm especially skeptical that PAD even mentioned Ben Reilly's name. You'd think he'd want a surprise. But then again, I would have never decided to buy FNSM 14 unless I knew about it. OR it could be similar to Brubaker revealing that a Third Summers Brother was involved in Deadly Genesis, which I always thought was a bad idea.
 
Doc Destruction said:
I'll call it here...Peter will dye his hair blonde and go by the name of Ben Reilly, thus wiping out the Spider-Man unmasking thing along with the marriage.

You know, technically, Ben would have had to forge documents and papers proving he was someone other than a clone of Peter Parker. In order to get an apartment, let alone the two or three jobs Ben got during his run in NYC after his return, he'd have to have some kind of ID.

Being that the Spider-Team was in such a damn hurry to kill Ben and make everyone happy (except me, given the deus ex of Osborn showing up and being all "I'm behind EVERYTHING! And alive!"), his personal **** would have to have been left sitting there for some time. According to the folk who care about that stuff, he could have gone on vacation for a year or so, for all they know. It wouldn't have expired. And since nobody knew Ben Reilly was Spider-Man (or whoever), they had no knowledge of his "death." Pete swings by the "secret hiding place" where Ben would have kept all his fake documents (possibly crafted by the ever-lame Steward Trainer!), and voila! You've got yourself a working alias. Bam.

OR, when he joins Captain America's side, Nick Fury gives him that alter ego as a big damn joke.
 
If Ben was really returning then it wouldn't be in FNSM #14 and it probably wouldn't be outright said like that (it would probably be said ina much larger way). I'm pretty sure Ben coming back from the dead would be an ASM story.

THough Joe and the writers have been making Ben Reilly overtures for some time now, as recent as the comments about Back in Black and when discussing the fallout from The Other. Of course this could all very well be a bait and switch.

But anyway if Ben does show up in FNSM it will probably be as a flashback, or a brief alternate reality trip, or maybe someone will happen upon Ben Reilly stuff and it will be a little one shot similar to what was seen in Spider-Girl a while back. (Or maybe Peter comes close to death and has a conversation with 'spirit Ben Reilly' sort of like that other time he was close to death...)

I just don't think that FNSM is high calibur enough for his return. It could be akin to an 'issue 0' that lays a small seed that could be a part of a much larger (and heavily publisized) story.
 
Doc Destruction said:
I'll call it here...Peter will dye his hair blonde and go by the name of Ben Reilly, thus wiping out the Spider-Man unmasking thing along with the marriage.
I thought there was an issue where parker said something about never going blonde, wasn't it when jameson put up a bounty for him and he started going around as dusk, ricochet, the prodigy and the hornet?

for some reason the small detail sticks out in my mind.
 
crivelliman said:
You know, technically, Ben would have had to forge documents and papers proving he was someone other than a clone of Peter Parker. In order to get an apartment, let alone the two or three jobs Ben got during his run in NYC after his return, he'd have to have some kind of ID.

correct, i'm listening....

crivelliman said:
Being that the Spider-Team was in such a damn hurry to kill Ben and make everyone happy (except me, given the deus ex of Osborn showing up and being all "I'm behind EVERYTHING! And alive!"),

and me! :woot:

crivelliman said:
his personal **** would have to have been left sitting there for some time. According to the folk who care about that stuff, he could have gone on vacation for a year or so, for all they know. It wouldn't have expired. And since nobody knew Ben Reilly was Spider-Man (or whoever), they had no knowledge of his "death."

Actually....



These people know who Ben Reilly is (and they don't know that he has powers) and they just watched him plummet from the top of the Bugle onto a car. Whether the government knows about his death is another story. Jonah most probably published an obituary.

crivelliman said:
Pete swings by the "secret hiding place" where Ben would have kept all his fake documents (possibly crafted by the ever-lame Steward Trainer!), and voila! You've got yourself a working alias. Bam.

hahahah yeah that guy is lame. Deep down, I don't think that Ben Reilly is coming back now (although I'm clinging onto hope and letting myself get excited cause it's fun) but I don't think Peter's gonna use it as an I.D. either. Although it would be funny for Peter to try to pass himself as Ben Reilly. It wouldn't be THAT hard. He just needs to dye his hair and grow a pair.

crivelliman said:
OR, when he joins Captain America's side, Nick Fury gives him that alter ego as a big damn joke.

As long as Kaine brutally murders (or at least scars) Nick Fury immediately afterwards, then I'm ok with this. :yay:
 
Guys, don't you think by the sheer fact that the clone saga nearly killed the Spidey comic franchise that JQ would try and avoid it like the plague?

Not to mention the fact that JQ, Bendis and all the other main writers @ Marvel that are big comic fans absolutely hate most 90's comics? I mean, they killed Carnage in quite a simple way...

Not only that, JQ DID spend quite a long time trying to ignore the existence of the entire clone saga? The 1st time it got mentioned in a very long time was in Mark Millar's MK Spidey run a couple of times, 'cause he's a huge fan of continuity...

Seriously, don't get your hopes up, it won't be very good.

Also, some of you guys out there should go pick up, (UK Mag,) Comics International. PAD has a pretty interesting article in their about fan boys, and how we don't know what we want, and that makes it very difficult for writers.

He cites the modern internet both a help, and sometimes hinderance, but he does discuss his entire career in comics, and what it was like dealing not only with fan boys, but other writers and editors... It's quite interesting, as he shows that editors/writers/etc. all get confused about which direction to go, and argue amongst themselves a lot.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY, at the end of the article, he brings up what he says, is the ONE TIME, where he was completely right. He got the chance to write the Spider-Man/Spider-Man 2099 crossover, (seeing as he wrote some great Spidey, an created Spidey 2099.) And the Marvel gave him the choice if using either Peter or Ben, he chose Peter... His editor kept asking him if he was sure, as Ben had just replaced Peter, and told PAD that Parker wa now obselete. PAD believed that it was a huge error, 'cause he profusley believed that telling fans that the charachter that they've loved and followed for decades was all in vein would piss of people to no end. In his words, no matter what people argued about, fans had become emotionally invested in this character, and to do this, would make people pissed off and lose interest. Lo and behold, that happened, and PAD goes on to state in the article about how he was right, and Marvel were forced to go back to Peter.

So there you go, I don't know what else you want to speculate about, but that's what he said in the article. And this is not a big cheesy fake out Wizrd marketing mag, it's a bit of a serious Brit mag.

The only thing I can think about bringing Ben back in a serious fashion, would be to sort out the whole unmasking thing, which personally, I think couild work. Saying that, it would add to the gigantic convoluted mess that is the continuity of the clone saga. Not only that, (sorry guys, this is how the Marvel editorial generally feel, whether you like it or not,) the Marvel guys don't respect the story of the clone saga, thinking it was a moronic mess of a story due to guys in suits trying to control the writers thinking they know what they do. Bringing up Ben in a major way during Civil War would only make new 'mature' readers go back and pick up the Clone Saga out of curiosity. And clearly, if they hate the story, wouldn't they think it's a bad idea?

That's just my thoughts...
 
I wanna respond to this....but i have to finish my homework so i can get a few hours sleep and then go to class. We're not through yet wolvie! *shakes fist* :cwink:
 
wolvie2020 said:
Guys, don't you think by the sheer fact that the clone saga nearly killed the Spidey comic franchise that JQ would try and avoid it like the plague?

Not to mention the fact that JQ, Bendis and all the other main writers @ Marvel that are big comic fans absolutely hate most 90's comics? I mean, they killed Carnage in quite a simple way...

Not only that, JQ DID spend quite a long time trying to ignore the existence of the entire clone saga? The 1st time it got mentioned in a very long time was in Mark Millar's MK Spidey run a couple of times, 'cause he's a huge fan of continuity...

Seriously, don't get your hopes up, it won't be very good.

Also, some of you guys out there should go pick up, (UK Mag,) Comics International. PAD has a pretty interesting article in their about fan boys, and how we don't know what we want, and that makes it very difficult for writers.

He cites the modern internet both a help, and sometimes hinderance, but he does discuss his entire career in comics, and what it was like dealing not only with fan boys, but other writers and editors... It's quite interesting, as he shows that editors/writers/etc. all get confused about which direction to go, and argue amongst themselves a lot.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY, at the end of the article, he brings up what he says, is the ONE TIME, where he was completely right. He got the chance to write the Spider-Man/Spider-Man 2099 crossover, (seeing as he wrote some great Spidey, an created Spidey 2099.) And the Marvel gave him the choice if using either Peter or Ben, he chose Peter... His editor kept asking him if he was sure, as Ben had just replaced Peter, and told PAD that Parker wa now obselete. PAD believed that it was a huge error, 'cause he profusley believed that telling fans that the charachter that they've loved and followed for decades was all in vein would piss of people to no end. In his words, no matter what people argued about, fans had become emotionally invested in this character, and to do this, would make people pissed off and lose interest. Lo and behold, that happened, and PAD goes on to state in the article about how he was right, and Marvel were forced to go back to Peter.

So there you go, I don't know what else you want to speculate about, but that's what he said in the article. And this is not a big cheesy fake out Wizrd marketing mag, it's a bit of a serious Brit mag.

The only thing I can think about bringing Ben back in a serious fashion, would be to sort out the whole unmasking thing, which personally, I think couild work. Saying that, it would add to the gigantic convoluted mess that is the continuity of the clone saga. Not only that, (sorry guys, this is how the Marvel editorial generally feel, whether you like it or not,) the Marvel guys don't respect the story of the clone saga, thinking it was a moronic mess of a story due to guys in suits trying to control the writers thinking they know what they do. Bringing up Ben in a major way during Civil War would only make new 'mature' readers go back and pick up the Clone Saga out of curiosity. And clearly, if they hate the story, wouldn't they think it's a bad idea?

That's just my thoughts...

Perfectly stated.
 
I think a writer that has to keep in line with what the fans want is forever going to keep a character in a status quo which leads to decades of absolutely nothing of importance happening to them.

to fear your audience is to limit your abilities. I know you have to please the people paying your bills but pleasing them and fearing them is another matter altogether.

the problem now is people are too used to a static peter of old, one from about 10 or so years ago in his past. i wonder how many of us are still the same as we were 10 years ago :o
 
November Rain said:
the problem now is people are too used to a static peter of old, one from about 10 or so years ago in his past. i wonder how many of us are still the same as we were 10 years ago :o

Nicely said.
 
wolvie2020 said:
Guys, don't you think by the sheer fact that the clone saga nearly killed the Spidey comic franchise that JQ would try and avoid it like the plague?

Not to mention the fact that JQ, Bendis and all the other main writers @ Marvel that are big comic fans absolutely hate most 90's comics? I mean, they killed Carnage in quite a simple way...

Not only that, JQ DID spend quite a long time trying to ignore the existence of the entire clone saga? The 1st time it got mentioned in a very long time was in Mark Millar's MK Spidey run a couple of times, 'cause he's a huge fan of continuity...

Seriously, don't get your hopes up, it won't be very good.

Also, some of you guys out there should go pick up, (UK Mag,) Comics International. PAD has a pretty interesting article in their about fan boys, and how we don't know what we want, and that makes it very difficult for writers.

He cites the modern internet both a help, and sometimes hinderance, but he does discuss his entire career in comics, and what it was like dealing not only with fan boys, but other writers and editors... It's quite interesting, as he shows that editors/writers/etc. all get confused about which direction to go, and argue amongst themselves a lot.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY, at the end of the article, he brings up what he says, is the ONE TIME, where he was completely right. He got the chance to write the Spider-Man/Spider-Man 2099 crossover, (seeing as he wrote some great Spidey, an created Spidey 2099.) And the Marvel gave him the choice if using either Peter or Ben, he chose Peter... His editor kept asking him if he was sure, as Ben had just replaced Peter, and told PAD that Parker wa now obselete. PAD believed that it was a huge error, 'cause he profusley believed that telling fans that the charachter that they've loved and followed for decades was all in vein would piss of people to no end. In his words, no matter what people argued about, fans had become emotionally invested in this character, and to do this, would make people pissed off and lose interest. Lo and behold, that happened, and PAD goes on to state in the article about how he was right, and Marvel were forced to go back to Peter.

So there you go, I don't know what else you want to speculate about, but that's what he said in the article. And this is not a big cheesy fake out Wizrd marketing mag, it's a bit of a serious Brit mag.

The only thing I can think about bringing Ben back in a serious fashion, would be to sort out the whole unmasking thing, which personally, I think couild work. Saying that, it would add to the gigantic convoluted mess that is the continuity of the clone saga. Not only that, (sorry guys, this is how the Marvel editorial generally feel, whether you like it or not,) the Marvel guys don't respect the story of the clone saga, thinking it was a moronic mess of a story due to guys in suits trying to control the writers thinking they know what they do. Bringing up Ben in a major way during Civil War would only make new 'mature' readers go back and pick up the Clone Saga out of curiosity. And clearly, if they hate the story, wouldn't they think it's a bad idea?

That's just my thoughts...

Wizard sure is a crappy magazine. Did anybody see the recent issue with Spidey and Iron Man fighting on the cover? It's a one-page article that says "Uh oh for Spidey!" That's the content. Genius editorial work, guys. There's no need for a Wizard what with the advent of the internet, and amazingly enough my prediction that Wizard would become obsolete the second comic creators, writers and artists could directly submit their work to their fans/readers, has not come to fruition. But whatever.

David says this stuff all the time, in interviews and books for the most part. He's 100% right, and he knows it. The fact of the matter is, he's very good at his job. He'd be a damn good EIC, since he pretty much knows how to keep 'em happy ('em being the fans) while still sell books people thought would be cutting edge, but meanwhile being pretty much the status quo.

There's no doubt in my mind "fans" don't know what they want. They want character exploration, they want interesting stories, but when a character changes, or "evolves" as part of what would normally be considered "character development" in any other form of literature, fans freak. But then again, when a character sits around and does the same thing over and over again ("I'm going to eat your brain because you made me lose my job as a bad reporter!"), people complain the character is stagnating. The underlying difference is, of course, that when Spider-Man "changes" (and webs himself into a cocoon and becomes "The Spider," for example), it's ridiculous and overdone and completely overly dramatized. This is due to a few things: lousy writing and overt exaggeration due to a misunderstanding of how serious a medium comic books can be and are. If you were orphaned at a young age and in your mid-to-late twenties your parents returned, but they were actually artificial life forms created to screw with you by your best friend who just died partly as a result of his conflict with you, and you had to watch them die before your eyes, and then the woman who raised you since the death of her husband (who you are responsible for, by the way) fell into a coma one or two days later, you might have a little breakdown. But because it's Spider-Man, you have to make that worth reading and seeing in cool poses and in the framework of super-humans. But for the fans, Spidey acted "totally out of character." He was violent, nasty, out of touch with reality, abusive toward loved ones, and had a serious sense of self issue. I think in times of stress, a person would certainly behave in at least some of these ways, even if they were as noble and responsible as a Peter Parker like person.

I went the long way of doing this, but this is just one example of how a character could change, but that change is rejected by fans because it seems out of character. The difference is, with good writers and intricate, well-written stories, character change can be handled brilliantly. Interestingly enough, with my Venom example, they've re-invented the Eddie Brock / Venom character at least four or five times. From his debut to the Lethal Protector, to amnesia Venom, back to killing Spider-Man, and then into cancer patient, alien symbiote living off adrenaline costume Venom, none of these changes a) worked quite right, or b) were accepted for too long. Why? Well, regardless of the writing and art (remember, Jenkins wasn't awful until the organics, to the fans), Venom is just a crappy character. His changes aren't really accepted because, in essence, the Eddie Brock/Venom character should never have been accepted. However, thanks largely in part to the connection to Spider-Man, the superficial dichotomy between Spidey and Venom as far as physical being and sense of responsibility, and the 90's "woah cool, Erik Larsen and McFarlane!" era, Venom garnered some major fan power.

Anyway, fans have problems with change and character. Reilly didn't work as a result, and I think some of the previous comments were right on the fact that Quesada DOES know that if he goes near the Clone Saga, he runs the risk of pissing off those fans who ditched the book when they turned their backs on the character of Peter Parker. However, I could be wrong. Notice in Avengers Dissasembled when Wanda gave everyone their worst nightmares to fight, and Spidey's in the back corner of the splash page fighting... three more Spider-Mans?!

It's still enough, I think, to bet that Ben's not coming back, at least not in the framework of Civil War. And for those who think FNSM is not a "high enough caliber book" to warrant the return of Reilly, because of Marvel's apprehension about the original Clone Saga, I'd be willing to bet he'd come in through "the back door," so to speak. You'd think Uncle Ben returning might be a big deal, and yet, here we are.

Anyway, sorry about that. I did go the long route.
 
freemadison said:
I wanna respond to this....but i have to finish my homework so i can get a few hours sleep and then go to class. We're not through yet wolvie! *shakes fist* :cwink:

Heh, homework, haven't had that feeling in MANY years, I used to hate that stuff! Got in the way of my music and comic reading! Lol (Good luck btw:cwink:)

Hey, I didn't mean to completley diss the CS or anything... Although I hated it, and it was a large reason I stopped collecting comics, I'm not gonna come into a thread designed for Reilly fans and tell them they're idiots... each to his own, you know?

I just thought it was worth saying what I had to say seeing as I felt it's important for all the Reilly fans out there. Seeing as he's returning in FNSM, which is PAD's book, PAD wrote that entire article, and I've read MANY times JQ/Bendis/etc. opinions about CS, I thought it was worth saying all that, just so you BR fans would know their thoughts... It might give you a better idea of their plans etc.
 
crivelliman said:
Wizard sure is a crappy magazine. Did anybody see the recent issue with Spidey and Iron Man fighting on the cover? It's a one-page article that says "Uh oh for Spidey!" That's the content. Genius editorial work, guys. There's no need for a Wizard what with the advent of the internet, and amazingly enough my prediction that Wizard would become obsolete the second comic creators, writers and artists could directly submit their work to their fans/readers, has not come to fruition. But whatever.

David says this stuff all the time, in interviews and books for the most part. He's 100% right, and he knows it. The fact of the matter is, he's very good at his job. He'd be a damn good EIC, since he pretty much knows how to keep 'em happy ('em being the fans) while still sell books people thought would be cutting edge, but meanwhile being pretty much the status quo.

There's no doubt in my mind "fans" don't know what they want. They want character exploration, they want interesting stories, but when a character changes, or "evolves" as part of what would normally be considered "character development" in any other form of literature, fans freak. But then again, when a character sits around and does the same thing over and over again ("I'm going to eat your brain because you made me lose my job as a bad reporter!"), people complain the character is stagnating. The underlying difference is, of course, that when Spider-Man "changes" (and webs himself into a cocoon and becomes "The Spider," for example), it's ridiculous and overdone and completely overly dramatized. This is due to a few things: lousy writing and overt exaggeration due to a misunderstanding of how serious a medium comic books can be and are. If you were orphaned at a young age and in your mid-to-late twenties your parents returned, but they were actually artificial life forms created to screw with you by your best friend who just died partly as a result of his conflict with you, and you had to watch them die before your eyes, and then the woman who raised you since the death of her husband (who you are responsible for, by the way) fell into a coma one or two days later, you might have a little breakdown. But because it's Spider-Man, you have to make that worth reading and seeing in cool poses and in the framework of super-humans. But for the fans, Spidey acted "totally out of character." He was violent, nasty, out of touch with reality, abusive toward loved ones, and had a serious sense of self issue. I think in times of stress, a person would certainly behave in at least some of these ways, even if they were as noble and responsible as a Peter Parker like person.

I went the long way of doing this, but this is just one example of how a character could change, but that change is rejected by fans because it seems out of character. The difference is, with good writers and intricate, well-written stories, character change can be handled brilliantly. Interestingly enough, with my Venom example, they've re-invented the Eddie Brock / Venom character at least four or five times. From his debut to the Lethal Protector, to amnesia Venom, back to killing Spider-Man, and then into cancer patient, alien symbiote living off adrenaline costume Venom, none of these changes a) worked quite right, or b) were accepted for too long. Why? Well, regardless of the writing and art (remember, Jenkins wasn't awful until the organics, to the fans), Venom is just a crappy character. His changes aren't really accepted because, in essence, the Eddie Brock/Venom character should never have been accepted. However, thanks largely in part to the connection to Spider-Man, the superficial dichotomy between Spidey and Venom as far as physical being and sense of responsibility, and the 90's "woah cool, Erik Larsen and McFarlane!" era, Venom garnered some major fan power.

Anyway, fans have problems with change and character. Reilly didn't work as a result, and I think some of the previous comments were right on the fact that Quesada DOES know that if he goes near the Clone Saga, he runs the risk of pissing off those fans who ditched the book when they turned their backs on the character of Peter Parker. However, I could be wrong. Notice in Avengers Dissasembled when Wanda gave everyone their worst nightmares to fight, and Spidey's in the back corner of the splash page fighting... three more Spider-Mans?!

It's still enough, I think, to bet that Ben's not coming back, at least not in the framework of Civil War. And for those who think FNSM is not a "high enough caliber book" to warrant the return of Reilly, because of Marvel's apprehension about the original Clone Saga, I'd be willing to bet he'd come in through "the back door," so to speak. You'd think Uncle Ben returning might be a big deal, and yet, here we are.

Anyway, sorry about that. I did go the long route.

Well said. You know what's really weird? Although I know Wizard is absolute tack, I still buy it every month! lol...

It gives me the same feeling I get watchin' the OC, if it's in front of me, I can't help but look at it!

Also, Marvel/DC and Lord knows who else seem to give them unbelievable amounts of exclusives... Besides, it spawned Toyfare, which Spawned Twisted Toyfare Theatre,,, Which is one of the greatest creations of our time

:woot:
 

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