Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[spider-neil]

Much more so. Batman is still the driving impetus and cause for the rise of Joker, the rise of Harvey Dent, and the progress of Jim Gordon. All four are arguably equal protagonists (well not Joker, who is the antagonist, but still), yet Batman is what inspires/motivates all of them in the actions they take for most of the story--all of it in the Joker's case.

Captain America is arguably a less crucial character in Civil War since he is reacting to Tony and then Daniel Bruhl's character throughout. He reacts to the Accords, he reacts to Bucky being discovered and then activated, and finally he is reacting to Tony bringing down the hammer.

Consider once the die is cast and the battle lines are drawn (by admittedly Cap's hand), we actually see Tony spend time recruiting Peter Parker. We don't get that treatment for Cap. He just gets to kiss an underdeveloped love interest while Falcon shows up with Ant-Man, who he recruited off-screen. I would say Tony is a much more active character in a Captain America movie.

Joker drives the movie from the get go. Batman is basically putting out Joker's fires the entire movie. If Joker hadn't given Batman the location of Rachael and Harvey he wouldn't even know where to go and even then he got played.
In what way is Batman the impetus for TDK? If he is, I missed that completely.

This will open up a long winded argument that I don't have the energy for. Suffice to say, while I watched the movie, Batman seemed one step behind Joker the entire movie (even when Batman was interrogating Joker). More power to you if it came across to you that Batman was in control.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Much more so. Batman is still the driving impetus and cause for the rise of Joker, the rise of Harvey Dent, and the progress of Jim Gordon. All four are arguably equal protagonists (well not Joker, who is the antagonist, but still), yet Batman is what inspires/motivates all of them in the actions they take for most of the story--all of it in the Joker's case.

Captain America is arguably a less crucial character in Civil War since he is reacting to Tony and then Daniel Bruhl's character throughout. He reacts to the Accords, he reacts to Bucky being discovered and then activated, and finally he is reacting to Tony bringing down the hammer.

Consider once the die is cast and the battle lines are drawn (by admittedly Cap's hand), we actually see Tony spend time recruiting Peter Parker. We don't get that treatment for Cap. He just gets to kiss an underdeveloped love interest while Falcon shows up with Ant-Man, who he recruited off-screen. I would say Tony is a much more active character in a Captain America movie.

Yeah, TDK is clearly a Batman movie first and foremost. He is the character we follow for most of the movie and the one whose character arc forms the spine of the film. The Joker isn't even in the actual climax of the film, having already been defeated by then. Just because Joker stole all of his scenes, doesn't make him more important as a character. It would be like saying Hannibal Lecter is the main character in The Silence of the Lambs.

Now in CW, I would definitely consider Tony Stark to be a co-lead. Aside from the opening few minutes with Crossbones, he gets as much focus and screentime as Captain America does. Looking at IMDB, Stark actually has more screentime in CW than he does in either Avengers film.

 

[StormC]

Joker only has around 30 minutes of screentime in TDK. It just feels like more because of how much of a scene stealer he is.

 

[The Joker]

Much more so. Batman is still the driving impetus and cause for the rise of Joker, the rise of Harvey Dent, and the progress of Jim Gordon. All four are arguably equal protagonists (well not Joker, who is the antagonist, but still), yet Batman is what inspires/motivates all of them in the actions they take for most of the story--all of it in the Joker's case.

Captain America is arguably a less crucial character in Civil War since he is reacting to Tony and then Daniel Bruhl's character throughout. He reacts to the Accords, he reacts to Bucky being discovered and then activated, and finally he is reacting to Tony bringing down the hammer.

Consider once the die is cast and the battle lines are drawn (by admittedly Cap's hand), we actually see Tony spend time recruiting Peter Parker. We don't get that treatment for Cap. He just gets to kiss an underdeveloped love interest while Falcon shows up with Ant-Man, who he recruited off-screen. I would say Tony is a much more active character in a Captain America movie.

Joker drives the movie from the get go. Batman is basically putting out Joker's fires the entire movie. If Joker hadn't given Batman the location of Rachael and Harvey he wouldn't even know where to go and even then he got played.
In what way is Batman the impetus for TDK? If he is, I missed that completely.

This will open up a long winded argument that I don't have the energy for. Suffice to say, while I watched the movie, Batman seemed one step behind Joker the entire movie (even when Batman was interrogating Joker). More power to you if it came across to you that Batman was in control.

That's like saying Spider-Man wouldn't even have known Green Goblin had MJ on the bridge if he had not told him. How does that make the narrative any less about Spider-Man?

Joker is reacting to Batman. His whole plan is formed because of Batman. Everything from going to the mob with a plan to deal with the urgent Batman problem, to killing people to force Batman to unmask and turn himself in, to protecting Batman's identity by putting a kill target on Mr. Reese because Batman is just too much fun for him to lose etc.

Why else do you think Batman blames himself for what happened to Rachel and Dent? "I was meant to inspire good. Not madness, not death". When Mrs. Gordon thinks her husband is dead, she shouts at Batman "You brought this craziness on us!!!!". At Dent's press conference Gotham's citizens are howling for Batman to be hunted down and brought in so the Joker killings will stop etc. The movie could not make it more clear that this escalation Joker brought down on Gotham was because of Batman.

Joker only has around 30 minutes of screentime in TDK. It just feels like more because of how much of a scene stealer he is.

Exactly. It's like Hannibal Lecter in The Silence of the Lambs. About 16 minutes on screen, yet he's by far the most memorable element of that movie. Those 16 minutes turned Lecter into an iconic cinematic villain.

 

[StormC]

Honestly, if there's a movie where Batman was underused, it was TDKR.

Bruce Wayne on the other hand got plenty of screentime in that movie.

 

[The Batman]

Batman is a step behind Joker in TDK...just like how Cap is a step behind Zemo for most, if not all of CW.

Hell, at the end of the day, its Black Panther that catches him, not Steve. Steve was too busy falling right into Zemo's plan.

 

[Anita18]

Yeah, TDK is clearly a Batman movie first and foremost. He is the character we follow for most of the movie and the one whose character arc forms the spine of the film. The Joker isn't even in the actual climax of the film, having already been defeated by then. Just because Joker stole all of his scenes, doesn't make him more important as a character. It would be like saying Hannibal Lecter is the main character in The Silence of the Lambs.

Now in CW, I would definitely consider Tony Stark to be a co-lead. Aside from the opening few minutes with Crossbones, he gets as much focus and screentime as Captain America does. Looking at IMDB, Stark actually has more screentime in CW than he does in either Avengers film.

Right, and Joker doesn't have an arc in TDK. He just does what he wants through the entirety of the film.

Whereas Bruce definitely gets the meatiest arc in TDK, along with Dent and Gordon. Steve Rogers gets an arc in CW, but it's not quite as meaty because his arc doesn't really get resolved (as I've mentioned before). So does Tony, T'Challa and Natasha.

 

[DACrowe]

Joker drives the movie from the get go. Batman is basically putting out Joker's fires the entire movie. If Joker hadn't given Batman the location of Rachael and Harvey he wouldn't even know where to go and even then he got played.
In what way is Batman the impetus for TDK? If he is, I missed that completely.

This will open up a long winded argument that I don't have the energy for. Suffice to say, while I watched the movie, Batman seemed one step behind Joker the entire movie (even when Batman was interrogating Joker). More power to you if it came across to you that Batman was in control.

Where did I say Batman was in control? His presence, however, is the main cause of conflict in the film.

On your first point, Batman is actually in control for the whole first act. He and Gordon unofficially, and Dent separately, have brought the mob to its knees between films and we see Batman team up with both to single-handedly bring Lau into police custody and put Gotham on the track to winning its war on crime. That is the first 1/3 of the film.

You are right, not until he starts using illegal wiretapping does he ever get an advantage on the Joker. However, the Joker's entire reason for existing is because of Batman. I mean this isn't subtle, it was explained at the end of Batman Begins. "Escalation?" / "And now you're wearing a mask and jumping from rooftops."

The Joker also makes this explicit: he is only hired by the mob and given total control to go after Batman in the underworld because, "The Batman has showed Gotahm you're true colors, unfortunately." He then explains to Batman, "You changed things forever... what would I do without you, go back to ripping off drug dealers?"

The Joker only exists because there is a Batman, and everything he does is a reaction to Bruce Wayne deciding to be Batman and trying to stop him.

 

[StormC]

It's pretty common that the villains are one step ahead of the heroes and the ones that drive the plot. They create the conflict in the story and if we don't believe there is a reasonable chance the villain could be successful then there's no tension in the story.

 

[Anita18]

Of course, can you really give "credit" to TDKR for a conclusive arc finale, when a very large part of the fandom rejects exactly that part of the arc? More than any other element of TDKR, I see fans complain about the ending.

Uh, yeah? Nolan wrote it, he shot it, it's on celluloid, and now it's sitting in people's homes as DVD/Blu-ray. It exists. Whereas the resolution of Steve Roger's arc doesn't exist at all. It's not even written on paper yet, probably.

 

[Anita18]

It's pretty common that the villains are one step ahead of the heroes and the ones that drive the plot. They create the conflict in the story and if we don't believe there is a reasonable chance the villain could be successful then there's no tension in the story.

Exactly. Storytelling 101.

 

[spider-neil]

Uh, yeah? Nolan wrote it, he shot it, it's on celluloid, and now it's sitting in people's homes as DVD/Blu-ray. It exists. Whereas the resolution of Steve Roger's arc doesn't exist at all. It's not even written on paper yet, probably.

For me, the Winter Soldier story line is resolved.

 

[Anita18]

For me, the Winter Soldier story line is resolved.

That's arguable, since it definitely isn't resolved for me, but Captain America's (you know, the guy the movies are named after) storyline sure isn't.

Or if you mean Steve-and-Bucky's relationship story, I...guess? (Still arguable, since they're definitely just pausing it.) Even though the first movie wasn't really about that at all?

 

[DACrowe]

For me, the Winter Soldier story line is resolved.

But we are talking about Steve. Steve Rogers does not have his place in the world settled. He was an outsider in TFA, and then felt uncomfortable as a man out of time in The Avengers and then TWS. Now, in CW he is a man without a government despite his patriotic moniker. Both who he is to himself and to America (which is important for a character with that name) is left unresolved, and will not likely have a form of closure until the second Infinity Wars film.

There is not closure, because it is more like the fifth episode in a series than the third film in a trilogy.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

For me, the Winter Soldier story line is resolved.

Not for me. He's being hidden in Wakanda because Tony Stark and most of the world's governments are still after him. The Stark/Bucky conflict wasn't resolved at all.

 

[Anita18]

And you know that's too much of a loose end to ignore in the Black Panther movie.

 

[The Batman]

It's pretty common that the villains are one step ahead of the heroes and the ones that drive the plot. They create the conflict in the story and if we don't believe there is a reasonable chance the villain could be successful then there's no tension in the story.

Yup. Why this is a problem for Batman in TDK, and not Cap in CW (or most Hero/Villain conflicts), I've yet to understand.

 

[StormC]

I think people just take Batman's screentime for granted, so a flamboyant, in-your-face character like the Joker stands out in contrast. Zemo is more reserved and behind-the-scenes.

 

[The Batman]

^ I think that's the main part of it, as well as Bale Bats not adhering to surface-level aspects of the comics.

 

[StormC]

If Empire Strikes Back came out today, people would probably complain that Darth Vader is the "real" star of the movie and Luke Skywalker got sidelined.

 

[Mr. Forest]

1. The Dark Knight - 5/5
2. The Dark Knight Rises - 5/5
   [*]Batman Begins - 5/5
3. Captain America: The Winter Soldier - 5/5
4. Captain America: Civil War - 4/5
5. Captain America: The First Avenger - 4/5

The Dark Knight Trilogy > Captain America Trilogy

 

[The Batman]

If Empire Strikes Back came out today, people would probably complain that Darth Vader is the "real" star of the movie and Luke Skywalker got sidelined.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If Empire Strikes Back came out today, people would probably complain that Darth Vader is the "real" star of the movie and Luke Skywalker got sidelined.

Ha! You know it's true.

 

[jaymes_e06]

If Empire Strikes Back came out today, people would probably complain that Darth Vader is the "real" star of the movie and Luke Skywalker got sidelined.

So true.t:

 

[Lantern Venom]

Cap's trilogy has 5 good-to-great villains:

Red Skull
Alexander Pierce
Arnim Zola
Crossbones
Winter Soldier

I can't think of any super hero trilogy that has that many successful adaptations of baddies.