Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[DACrowe]

Let me phrase what TDKR did in these terms: Imagine if [blackout]Thanos is about to complete the Gauntlet, and then Nebula gets it at the last second and then becomes the threat for the Wakanda fight. Further, Nebula declares Thanos was working for her all this time. Then Thor kills Thanos with Stormbreaker quickly and then they have to chase down Nebula. Our new villain. That would have undermined what we saw before when Thanos was getting the other stones, right? That is effectively for me what they did to Bane.[/blackout]

Well turning Nebula into a villain I'd hate, because Nebula is awesome as an anti-hero.

But yes, supposing that happens while Nebula becomes just a (weak) means to the ending, if Marvel executed it right that'd work, because it would mean the point is bigger than just Thanos, who still would have his awesome layer, just with an added dimension. But this would emphasize the story is about the heroes' own arcs and inner-demons, and that this has to come down to more than just a fist fight.

Of course that would require any of the heroes in Infinity War to HAVE arcs or interior lives for that particular film and it be about more than just punching away the bad guys...

 

[DACrowe]

Hey, lay off Insomnia! Pacino and Williams are wonderful and Al's scene with Maura Tierney in the dark/not dark hotel room was a real shocker when I first saw it.

Eh, it's not bad. But it is the only Nolan movie I would consider "average."

Some of us like the medium. And superheroes.

As do I. But I like seeing new things done with it. And a movie that challenges the basic assumptions of a character and medium isn't a bad thing. It can be used to even make the eponymous superhero stronger.

Well, Rises DOES have its own version of a magic rock. And I can't put Nolan's Selina on top of my rankings when he refused to commit to the ears - "Just wait until she flips those goggles!"

I'm not sure what's wrong with the goggles. Yes, he gives them a functionality, but she is aware of what they look like. She does ask Dagget, "Cat got your tongue?" I actually think it is a subtle bit of world-building. The inference is she was probably a kid or teenager when the events of BB/TDK happened, and she grew up in a world post-Batman and post-Joker. "Escalation." She is obviously a bit of a fan of Batman and takes on her own theatricality. It's actually a pretty brilliant piece of world building.

Also for all those who claim Nolan uses too much exposition, you get all of this by her lifting the goggles and looking at Batman and saying, "Well, what do you know." And then her kind of having a quiet, wordless fangirl moment in the back of Batman's plane.

The rush to get to the fireworks factory is a problem for Cap, no doubt. But it redeems itself with a sweet love story, a great ending and an even better second ending. And I'm not even giving it credit for the amazing "Gentlemen. You're up" post credit scene. It's a terrific "old timey" superhero flick and it shouldn't surprise you that some folks like it much better than Rises.

Eh. I liked it better when it was called The Rocketeer. And when it was reworked and improved upon in Wonder Woman. There is the potential for a nice old-timey superhero movie in Cap, but after the origin is over, it just abandons all plot and narrative momentum to become a glorified montage. I don't think it earns the ending, not least of all because much of tiny second act's conflicts feel forced--Peggy is jealous because sitcom other woman kissed him and she walked in on it--or pointless. I mean, did you really care about Bucky dying in 2011?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Agree to disagree, I suppose. The only point I'll quibble with is I actually like Bane not being the big bad at the very, very end. I know that is counterintuitive and somewhat deflating, but I think that is the point. This is never really about mano-a-mano fights like most superhero movies (including Batman Begins). As with the Joker not being the actual villain at the end, it is about Gotham, and it is about Bruce and what he is willing to do. Defeating the villain does not end the story, and Bane being this aggressive uber-alpha male, who also actually has a vulnerable and even sympathetic side, a side that is not all poetic dialogue and death threats, forces viewers to reconsider the character and the tropes of the genre.

I know some fans hate this, and worse some say it makes Bane weak because he took orders from a woman, yet it is clear they're more a partnership than a boss/henchman type of thing. It is just a little touch that makes Bane not everything you expect, and forces Bruce to work with Selina to save the day, but it is still about him, Batman's role as a symbol in Gotham, and his own relationship with his own pain. That is why the ending must outlive Bane.

That extra effort--and the Nolan love of a twist that, with the villain gone, we're still going--is what gives that ending of him sitting in a Florentine cafe extra resonance for me.

But yeah, I get neither of us are convincing each other.

Pretty much, LOL! Like I said before, I know this movie is not Spider-Man 3 and lots of people love it. It just does nothing for me personally. I just want to point out the gripes I have with it are not simple nitpicking or anything. The story just rubbed me the wrong way.

But Bane being led by a woman is not a problem for me, LOL! I just felt like Talia herself ended up flat in her overall presentation. I think she needed revealed either earlier or done more once revealed.

Well turning Nebula into a villain I'd hate, because Nebula is awesome as an anti-hero.

But yes, supposing that happens while Nebula becomes just a (weak) means to the ending, if Marvel executed it right that'd work, because it would mean the point is bigger than just Thanos, who still would have his awesome layer, just with an added dimension. But this would emphasize the story is about the heroes' own arcs and inner-demons, and that this has to come down to more than just a fist fight.

Of course that would require any of the heroes in Infinity War to HAVE arcs or interior lives for that particular film and it be about more than just punching away the bad guys...

IW is a movie I love, but I would agree most of the characters do not have arcs. No argument there. But had the movie played out with my updated climax, I would be able to easily see why fans would have revolted, LOL! I don't think we'd hear things like Thanos is best MCU villain ever from people had they done that. I'd also argue that while not about Bane, the ending devolves into a chase (one that mirrors the train sequence in BB a little too much, IMO).

 

[OutOfBoose]

I still think TDKR is two movies that were cramped into one. I feel the city being a hostage deserved much more development and time. I feel the return of Batman deserved more development and time. And it the first half of the story gets more room too. TDKR had great potential, that was realized only partially.

 

[Zarex]

Eh. I liked it better when it was called The Rocketeer. And when it was reworked and improved upon in Wonder Woman. There is the potential for a nice old-timey superhero movie in Cap, but after the origin is over, it just abandons all plot and narrative momentum to become a glorified montage. I don't think it earns the ending, not least of all because much of tiny second act's conflicts feel forced--Peggy is jealous because sitcom other woman kissed him and she walked in on it--or pointless. I mean, did you really care about Bucky dying in 2011?

I would have loved more of the Howling Commandos, and perhaps even another WWII era flick before Steve became a Capsicle. And once I dried my tears (kidding!) Bucky's tragic fall into foggy nothingness had me thinking of his return in either the seqeuel or threequel. Both problems seem to be a direct result of the film being part of a connected cinematic universe. I can see why this is a problem for folks.

But I didn't consider Peggy's brief bout with jealousy to be a conflict so much as a way of showing that this old fashioned gal had feelings for her fella.

 

[henzINNIT]

Nolan debates always interest/infruriate me in equal measure. His undeniable rep as a film-maker warps the scale. His films are a beauty to behold, but he also shies away from some of the most compelling trappings of the genre. The action in TDKT was near-universally dreadful to me, but the Joker interrogation for example was something else.


I hate Rises. I love some elements, and I wanted to love it. There was a great film-maker at work, great cast, great score etc etc. I was put off by the decisions made in regards to the characters and arcs, and as I became less engaged I started noticing the plot holes and weirdness. Watching the film is an irritating experience for me. It didn't just rub me the wrong way, I felt like it stabbed its predecessors in the back. I don't even watch the other films anymore.


Still Raimi all the way for me. He's the perfect balance of interesting film-making and imaginative set pieces.

 

[Brother Jack]

What was the explanation for holding the city hostage for 6 months?

The same reason Bane leaves Bruce in the pit instead of killing him. Torture, poisoning the soul with the illusion of hope. It also reflects the villains' plans in the other movies. Ra's wanted Gotham to destroy itself with the fear toxin, Joker with chaos, Bane with a feigned social upheaval.

 

[The Batman]

The Dark Knight Rises starts off great, but once you get into the meat of the story the film sort of collapses under its own weight. And there's just some genuinely dumb stuff in there to boot.

I still think it's a good movie overall, but it's the weakest of the trilogy by far.

I don't think TDKR is a great film....but to be honest, most CBM's aren't in my opinion, and that includes most of the MCU.

Also, MCU fans shouldn't be accusing anyone of being easily triggered. Forget actual discussion of the films themselves, an MCU fan will feel some type a way if an MCU film doesn't win a "Vs." poll.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't think TDKR is a great film....but to be honest, most CBM's aren't in my opinion, and that includes most of the MCU.

Also, MCU fans shouldn't be accusing anyone of being easily triggered. Forget actual discussion of the films themselves, an MCU fan will feel some type a way if an MCU film doesn't win a "Vs." poll.

Hahahaha.

I was being semi-facetious. But honestly, Nolan fans (And I mean the staunch, did TDK get Obama elected posters) have had a reputation on SHH. Maybe there are some overly sensitive MCU fans, but even with the Snyder fans adorning the TIVO thread, before them the Nolan fans brought a lot of attention to themselves. I don't think MCU fans have reached that level.....yet.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Hahahaha.

I was being semi-facetious. But honestly, Nolan fans (And I mean the staunch, did TDK get Obama elected posters) have had a reputation on SHH. Maybe there are some overly sensitive MCU fans, but even with the Snyder fans adorning the TIVO thread, before them the Nolan fans brought a lot of attention to themselves. I don't think MCU fans have reached that level.....yet.

Having viewed this forum from a moderator's perspective, I agree. TDKR's release was bad times on here. Bad times

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't think TDKR is a great film....but to be honest, most CBM's aren't in my opinion, and that includes most of the MCU.

Also, MCU fans shouldn't be accusing anyone of being easily triggered. Forget actual discussion of the films themselves, an MCU fan will feel some type a way if an MCU film doesn't win a "Vs." poll.

How dare you, we aren't easily triggered.

Spoiler

t:

No but really it'll be very curious when the tables turn and the MCU starts really dropping the ball. It's inevitable and I'm guessing it won't be pretty.

The same reason Bane leaves Bruce in the pit instead of killing him. Torture, poisoning the soul with the illusion of hope. It also reflects the villains' plans in the other movies. Ra's wanted Gotham to destroy itself with the fear toxin, Joker with chaos, Bane with a feigned social upheaval.

That's right, it's been a minute since I've watched it all the way through but I do remember hope and seeing the sky in the hole and all that.

 

[Fincher]

Also for all those who claim Nolan uses too much exposition, you get all of this by her lifting the goggles and looking at Batman and saying, "Well, what do you know." And then her kind of having a quiet, wordless fangirl moment in the back of Batman's plane.

I don't get any of this, not even a little bit. What I do get is Hathaway's Selina being annoying in her more Catwoman-adjacent moments. Hypothetically speaking, if Nolan expected Hathaway's acting to somehow establish that she's Catwoman, that was a huge mistake.

 

[The Batman]

Hahahaha.

I was being semi-facetious. But honestly, Nolan fans (And I mean the staunch, did TDK get Obama elected posters) have had a reputation on SHH. Maybe there are some overly sensitive MCU fans, but even with the Snyder fans adorning the TIVO thread, before them the Nolan fans brought a lot of attention to themselves. I don't think MCU fans have reached that level.....yet.

I can't disagree with all that.

How dare you, we aren't easily triggered.

Spoiler

t:

No but really it'll be very curious when the tables turn and the MCU starts really dropping the ball. It's inevitable and I'm guessing it won't be pretty.

I can't see them ever really dropping the ball as long as Feige's there. Then again, people do lose their touch as they age, so who knows.

 

[Awest66]

I gotta agree with Erz. Whenever one of these TDKR or whatever debates comes up, the fans of the movie are easily triggered. There's a level of condescension that comes out if you don't like the movie. For some reason before you can make any sort of criticism, people seemingly have to say things like "Though it is a masterpiece of filmmaking and clearly one of the best CBMs ever, it doesn't work for me." I don't play that game. I don't think TDKR is a great film. I have a lot of issues with it and I think the script was very sloppy. If you disagree, that's great. It doesn't change my opinion.

I think the people who dislike TDKR have a tendency to come off as more condescending than the people who defend it. I'm not saying there aren't reasonable critics but a lot of them come off as very entitled to me which isn't helped by the abundance of nitpicking as well.

 

[C. Lee]

I think TDKR is ultimately a good movie but only just so.

It doesn't even rise to that point for me.

 

[Awest66]

Let me phrase what TDKR did in these terms: Imagine if [blackout]Thanos is about to complete the Gauntlet, and then Nebula gets it at the last second and then becomes the threat for the Wakanda fight. Further, Nebula declares Thanos was working for her all this time. Then Thor kills Thanos with Stormbreaker quickly and then they have to chase down Nebula. Our new villain. That would have undermined what we saw before when Thanos was getting the other stones, right? That is effectively for me what they did to Bane.[/blackout]

Didn't something similar to that actually happen in the Infinity Gauntlet comic storyline? (Nebula stealing the gauntlet).

Anyways this comparison largely falls flat to me because not only does Talia never say Bane was "working for her" but it was set up earlier in the movie that Bane wasn't actually the child who escaped the pit. (Bane saying he didn't see the light until he was a man, The doctor saying Bane was injured in the pit but the child who makes the jump is unharmed)

Not trying to change your opinion but that doesn't mean I can't discuss

 

[Spider-Fan]

Didn't something similar to that actually happen in the actual Infinity Gauntlet comic storyline? (Nebula stealing the gauntlet).

Anyways this comparison largely falls flat to me because not only does Talia never say Bane was "working for her" but it was set up earlier in the movie that Bane wasn't actually the child who escaped the pit. (Bane saying he didn't see the light until he was a man, The doctor saying Bane was injured in the pit but the child who makes the jump is unharmed)

Not trying to change your opinion but that doesn't mean I can't discuss

It's a message board, so feel free to discuss, LOL!

Assuming I am remembering the movie correctly, Batman is still operating under the assumption Bane is the child. So if Batman is, then so is the audience. Until the reveal. But even so, if you want to discount that for arguments sake, Talia has no physical presence as Talia (she is in her secret persona until then) until that reveal, and she just is not the active villain for very long in the film. It's underwhelming. She basically reveals herself, is chased on a truck, then dies. At no point did she become a credible threat to me.

Yes, in the comic Nebula got the Gauntlet, but the comic IG story and IW movie are vastly different animals. [blackout]IW is closer to Thanos quest and is about the quest for the stones. In IG, Thanos already has them. It's a different dynamic.[/blackout]

 

[Another_Fool]

Goodness gracious me. This is a tough one.

I love both the 2nd and 3rd movies of both trilogies. While I think Batman Begins is technically a better made film, I have deeper affection for the First Avenger.

Eh. I guess I have to go with the TDK trilogy. 2 of the 3 movies are iconic and didn't have the benefit of a larger cinematic universe to develop key characters in other movies.

 

[Awest66]

Assuming I am remembering the movie correctly, Batman is still operating under the assumption Bane is the child. So if Batman is, then so is the audience. Until the reveal. But even so, if you want to discount that for arguments sake, Talia has no physical presence as Talia (she is in her secret persona until then) until that reveal, and she just is not the active villain for very long in the film. It's underwhelming. She basically reveals herself, is chased on a truck, then dies. At no point did she become a credible threat to me

Yes, Bruce believes that Bane is the child but as I've stated, there are small hints that discount it if the audience is paying attention. So when the twist does happen, You can look back at those hints and realize what they were building too. whether you thought they did a good job or not is entirely down to opinion but they're there.

On the reveal itself. I do agree that it comes in too late but I don't agree that it either ruins Bane's standing as a villain. I've watched the reveal scene quite a few times and most of it is Talia essentially glorifying Bane and making it clear she owes everything to him.

 

[honestbharani]

Goodness gracious me. This is a tough one.

I love both the 2nd and 3rd movies of both trilogies. While I think Batman Begins is technically a better made film, I have deeper affection for the First Avenger.

Eh. I guess I have to go with the TDK trilogy. 2 of the 3 movies are iconic and didn't have the benefit of a larger cinematic universe to develop key characters in other movies.

This is one reasoning I can actually get on board with. Nolan's trilogy did not have the advantage of pulling off a Civil War type movie but it was by choice from Nolan right? So I think you can still judge them on equal footing.

 

[DACrowe]

I don't get any of this, not even a little bit. What I do get is Hathaway's Selina being annoying in her more Catwoman-adjacent moments. Hypothetically speaking, if Nolan expected Hathaway's acting to somehow establish that she's Catwoman, that was a huge mistake.

I mean, if you don't see it you don't see it. But it's there. She gave a fantastic performance, and for the record, I don't think anyone was confused why she said "cat got your tongue?" Or why Dagget said something to the effect of "Nine lives."

More specifically, this look she has in the back of the plane speaks volumes. Without dialogue.

 

[Fincher]

I mean, if you don't see it you don't see it. But it's there. She gave a fantastic performance, and for the record, I don't think anyone was confused why she said "cat got your tongue?" Or why Dagget said something to the effect of "Nine lives."

More specifically, this look she has in the back of the plane speaks volumes. Without dialogue.

I mean, if that's how you read it, cool, whatever works for you. But that smile could be a Batman fan, or it could be her imagining how much money she'd make if she stole the Batwing and sold it on the black market, or it could be her thinking flying around in super hi-tech spacemobiles is cool. Her saying "Cat got your tongue?" could just be a snarky comment that fits in context (as well as a a reference to Catwoman out-of-context). I also wonder why she'd be less bothered by selling out to his death this larger-than-life figure she's a fan of, who she modeled her persona after, than a guy she barely knew.

I could maybe see the "cat got your tongue" comment being a joke about the media calling her "The Cat", but even that's unnecessary because remove The Cat, remove her "ears", and everything in the movie still makes sense. And being aware of what the media knows her as and commenting on it doesn't mean she's adopted a cat persona, anyway, never mind that she did it because of Batman. This is the sort of thing that happens when the story vaguely plays around with something; different people interpret it different ways. If the Nolans wanted everyone to think Selina is Catwoman, they needed to establish it and not beat around the bush.

 

[fan4stic]

BB is better than TFA to me.
TDK is better than TWS to me.
TDKR is arguably not as good as CW to me. TDKR is the messier of the trilogy and does have plot conveniences and does have forced situations. But I don't think that makes it bad, just that CW is arguably more clean in it's writing.

 

[honestbharani]

I mean, if you don't see it you don't see it. But it's there. She gave a fantastic performance, and for the record, I don't think anyone was confused why she said "cat got your tongue?" Or why Dagget said something to the effect of "Nine lives."

More specifically, this look she has in the back of the plane speaks volumes. Without dialogue.

I mean, if that's how you read it, cool, whatever works for you. But that smile could be a Batman fan, or it could be her imagining how much money she'd make if she stole the Batwing and sold it on the black market, or it could be her thinking flying around in super hi-tech spacemobiles is cool. Her saying "Cat got your tongue?" could just be a snarky comment that fits in context (as well as a a reference to Catwoman out-of-context). I also wonder why she'd be less bothered by selling out to his death this larger-than-life figure she's a fan of, who she modeled her persona after, than a guy she barely knew.

I could maybe see the "cat got your tongue" comment being a joke about the media calling her "The Cat", but even that's unnecessary because remove The Cat, remove her "ears", and everything in the movie still makes sense. And being aware of what the media knows her as and commenting on it doesn't mean she's adopted a cat persona, anyway, never mind that she did it because of Batman. This is the sort of thing that happens when the story vaguely plays around with something; different people interpret it different ways. If the Nolans wanted everyone to think Selina is Catwoman, they needed to establish it and not beat around the bush.

Lol.. if anything, I felt it was way too contrived and too much "beating us over the head with it" in terms of how they wanted to ensure we knew that character was "Catwoman" without ever saying it out loud. As Fincher says, it just shows how loose to interpretation they left it, which is really just a lack of commitment on their part to call the character that name.

 

[spider-neil]

The Batman trilogy has higher highs but (IMHO) also has lower lows. After watching TDKR I now think that is a bad movie.