Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[ludovica]

The Batman trilogy has higher highs but (IMHO) also has lower lows. After watching TDKR I now think that is a bad movie.

Preach.

 

[DACrowe]

I mean, if that's how you read it, cool, whatever works for you. But that smile could be a Batman fan, or it could be her imagining how much money she'd make if she stole the Batwing and sold it on the black market, or it could be her thinking flying around in super hi-tech spacemobiles is cool. Her saying "Cat got your tongue?" could just be a snarky comment that fits in context (as well as a a reference to Catwoman out-of-context). I also wonder why she'd be less bothered by selling out to his death this larger-than-life figure she's a fan of, who she modeled her persona after, than a guy she barely knew.

I could maybe see the "cat got your tongue" comment being a joke about the media calling her "The Cat", but even that's unnecessary because remove The Cat, remove her "ears", and everything in the movie still makes sense. And being aware of what the media knows her as and commenting on it doesn't mean she's adopted a cat persona, anyway, never mind that she did it because of Batman. This is the sort of thing that happens when the story vaguely plays around with something; different people interpret it different ways. If the Nolans wanted everyone to think Selina is Catwoman, they needed to establish it and not beat around the bush.

I mean if you want to view it that way, that's fine. But I personally think you're working really hard to discredit the obvious. She flips it up, she makes a cat pun, so does Dagget (I haven't seen it in some years). And that look in the backseat is the only time she has her guard down until the final shot of the movie (out of focus Alfred sees her), because both times are moments where she isn't (or doesn't know) she's being watched. Those are the only times she seems relaxed and genuine.

If you don't want to see it fine, but this gets back to my original point: People don't give Nolan enough credit for being subtle when he wants to be.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I will give TDKR this: I did like Catwoman in it. I actually think she was the thing I liked most about the movie overall.

 

[Awest66]

The Batman trilogy has higher highs but (IMHO) also has lower lows. After watching TDKR I now think that is a bad movie.

You have some pretty messed-up standards of what a "bad movie" is then.

 

[spider-neil]

You have some pretty messed-up standards of what a "bad movie" is then.

A movie that I can't finish, for me is a bad movie.
The first time I watched the movie I was entertained but on subsequent viewings, you can't ignore the planet-sized plot holes. When I watch the movie now I completely check out after then Bane fight.

 

[FunkMiller]

The Dark Knight Rises is not a bad movie, but it is a film weighed down by some questionable narrative decisions taken by Nolan and co in order to finish Batman's story with a nice bow around it.

I've always felt that a majority of the film's issues wouldn't have been present, had Nolan not wanted to explicitly end the story with absolutely no way to continue it. In his desire to tell a complete story, he rather sacrifices a lot of what makes Batman Batman, to the detriment of the overall narrative.

I am a huge Nolan fan, and that is really the only story decision he's ever taken that I have a problem with. He's not really honouring the character with that decision, but putting his own personal agenda and desire first. That of course is his right as the filmmaker, just as it's my right to disagree with the decision.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think he could have done a conclusive end to the Batman saga just fine. Logan did it for Wolverine. The issue was execution and how he went about it. The story for me was just swiss cheese (full of holes). Compare that to Logan, which is just amazing in almost every regard. When I went to see TDKR, I was hoping it was going to be THAT. Not what we got.

 

[Awest66]

A movie that I can't finish, for me is a bad movie.
The first time I watched the movie I was entertained but on subsequent viewings, you can't ignore the planet-sized plot holes. When I watch the movie now I completely check out after then Bane fight.

"Plot holes" that have been disproved time and time again.

 

[Flint Marko]

The Dark Knight Rises is not a bad movie, but it is a film weighed down by some questionable narrative decisions taken by Nolan and co in order to finish Batman's story with a nice bow around it.

I've always felt that a majority of the film's issues wouldn't have been present, had Nolan not wanted to explicitly end the story with absolutely no way to continue it. In his desire to tell a complete story, he rather sacrifices a lot of what makes Batman Batman, to the detriment of the overall narrative.

I am a huge Nolan fan, and that is really the only story decision he's ever taken that I have a problem with. He's not really honouring the character with that decision, but putting his own personal agenda and desire first. That of course is his right as the filmmaker, just as it's my right to disagree with the decision.

How do you as a huge Nolan/Batman fan feel about Bruce's decision to sit on his laurels for 8 years? I'm not a Batman fan but that seemed like a false note to me. I thought the ending of the Dark Knight basically signaled him embracing his role as Batman to the fullest.... but then we see him 8 years later as a complete recluse hobbling around with a cane for no real reason. It just seems like the wrong narrative decision.

 

[Spider-Fan]

"Plot holes" that have been disproved time and time again.

That is debatable. But at the end of the day, you're arguing an opinion. To him (and me) it is a bad movie. You're allowed to disagree.

 

[Awest66]

How do you as a huge Nolan/Batman fan feel about Bruce's decision to sit on his laurels for 8 years? I'm not a Batman fan but that seemed like a false note to me. I thought the ending of the Dark Knight basically signaled him embracing his role as Batman to the fullest.... but then we see him 8 years later as a complete recluse hobbling around with a cane for no real reason. It just seems like the wrong narrative decision.

Bruce taking the blame for Harvey Dent's death needs to have some kind of visible impact on Gotham City. It can't just be a contrivance to make Batman a wanted fugitive again.

Bruce states the reason he stopped going out "The Batman wasn't needed anymore, We won" and that rings true to this version of the character for me. He is whatever Gotham needs him to be so it makes sense that he won't be whatever Gotham doesn't need him to be.

 

[Awest66]

That is debatable. But at the end of the day, you're arguing an opinion. To him (and me) it is a bad movie. You're allowed to disagree.

Well in my opinion, "Planet-Sized plot holes" is pretty ridiculous.

 

[henzINNIT]

Plot holes might be too far. I can't recall any major plot holes. There are a ton of outright stupid moments though. Maybe that's a fairer description.

 

[Hammer!]

No plot holes by definition. Just tons of narrative contrivances, logic fallacies, and missing scenes that are needed to show A to B.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

How do you as a huge Nolan/Batman fan feel about Bruce's decision to sit on his laurels for 8 years? I'm not a Batman fan but that seemed like a false note to me. I thought the ending of the Dark Knight basically signaled him embracing his role as Batman to the fullest.... but then we see him 8 years later as a complete recluse hobbling around with a cane for no real reason. It just seems like the wrong narrative decision.

Batman should only exist because Batman is necessary. Which is the conundrum of the comics. Gotham is a never ending sea of crap, that Bruce never improves. It only in theory gets worse. The idea here is he, "fixed it", but in the process, there is an underlying problem, that Bane and Talia come in a exploit.

Should Batman go around beating up pick pockets? No. The idea is he made Gotham manageable for the police. It goes with the mission statement from Begins, where it was basically about getting rid of the gangs who had Gotham in a perpetual state of horror.

 

[DACrowe]

Batman should only exist because Batman is necessary. Which is the conundrum of the comics. Gotham is a never ending sea of crap, that Bruce never improves. It only in theory gets worse. The idea here is he, "fixed it", but in the process, there is an underlying problem, that Bane and Talia come in a exploit.

Should Batman go around beating up pick pockets? No. The idea is he made Gotham manageable for the police. It goes with the mission statement from Begins, where it was basically about getting rid of the gangs who had Gotham in a perpetual state of horror.

Yes, the reason I mentioned in another thread that the Nolan/Bale Batman movie made me like the character even more is that he views it in a wider socio-economic landscape and attacks the problem on a macro level. He still gives his last inch, but there is something more noble about it and more intriguing than him just being on a bloodlust every night to beat up poor people.

... Although, that interpretation works really well if its either lightly mythological (BTAS), or your interpretation of Bruce is he may or may not be a psychopath (Tim Burton and Frank Miller).

Most comic stories though (with some exceptions) don't put that much thought into it. That Nolan did makes his crusade more monumental and his losses, in their way, more tragically human.

 

[InCali]

I'd have to give a slight nod to TDKT, but consider TDKR the least of the 6 movies. Loved BB. For some reason, it just grabbed onto me. The CA trilogy was, IMO, much more consistent. None were quite as good as TDK, but all were better than TDKR.

 

[C. Lee]

Plot holes might be too far. I can't recall any major plot holes. There are a ton of outright stupid moments though. Maybe that's a fairer description.

No plot holes by definition. Just tons of narrative contrivances, logic fallacies, and missing scenes that are needed to show A to B.

My feelings too.

 

[Awest66]

but all were better than TDKR.

Except First Avenger. I think when simply compared as movies, Rises trumps it easily.

 

[childeroland]

Captain America is more consistent. The Dark Knight trilogy has Rises, which ruins the otherwise very high average.

 

[Awest66]

Captain America is more consistent. The Dark Knight trilogy has Rises, which ruins the otherwise very high average.

Going by that logic, First Avenger ruins Captain America's high average.

I feel like I'm coming off as very hard on that movie. I don't hate the First Avenger at all, It's a solid action/adventure that really nailed the main character but as a whole, it's way more below the Russo Bros. movies than Rises is from the first two.

 

[The_Manhunter]

In this neck of the woods, The Cap Trilogy is even more overrated than the Nolan films.

Agree, and I say that as someone who enjoyed all 3 films with Cap's name in the title.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Also, MCU fans shouldn't be accusing anyone of being easily triggered. Forget actual discussion of the films themselves, an MCU fan will feel some type a way if an MCU film doesn't win a "Vs." poll.

I do agree with this too.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Going by that logic, First Avenger ruins Captain America's high average.

I feel like I'm coming off as very hard on that movie. I don't hate the First Avenger at all, It's a solid action/adventure that really nailed the main character but as a whole, it's way more below the Russo Bros. movies than Rises is from the first two.

Not for me, it doesn't hurt the average. I love TFA.

 

[spider-neil]

Let's not be crying 'Marvel' zombies. I think you asked Marvel fans what their favourite superhero movie of all time is, the vast majority would say TDK.