Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[Limonade]

How was TDKR anymore "rushed" than Civil War? Both movies have basically the exact same critical scores across the internet.

On the whole final movie argument, There actually is quite a bit in Rises that I prefer to Civil War even if the latter is a better movie by a hair (for example, Bane is by far a better villain than Zemo)

That's my point though. I'm not saying TDKR is terrible and the entire thing was rushed. I'll elaborate that segments of the TDKR was rushed and that it was more noticeable than the pacing of Civil War.

Civil War was a better movie by a small margin which moved my needle to Captain America. But I do recognize that TDK was by far the strongest movie out of all six movies in this discussion.

The Dark Knight Rises could have benefited from a few extra minutes of theatrical time.

 

[Awest66]

Civil War for me was much much more emotional, the building the MCU had done over 8 years really made the impact of that movie much more intense. Whereas TDKR felt somewhat disconnected from the other two movies, picking up ten years or whatever after TDK. And with no Rachel, no Harvey, Batman taking a backseat for like 2/3 of the movie, and some new characters like Talia that I just couldn't get invested in, the connection to those characters wasn't as strong as Civil Wa

Bruce Wayne doesn't actually stop being Batman when he's not wearing the costume and hes front and center of Rises. That's like saying Captain America takes a back seat in Civil War (which is a popular opinion)

And I disagree about the villains... while I was disappointed Zemo didn't get a more comic accurate look, he was less cheesy, and his plan actually worked. People can say what they want about the plan relying on convenience, but at least it made some sense.

If were talking evil plans, Zemo's is by far more elaborate and convoluted than Bane's is. Bane's was honestly pretty straight forward when you get down to it (slowly destroy Gotham while forcing Bruce to watch) if anything it made more sense. I don't agree about Bane being cheesy either. There's good over the top and bad over the top (like Klaw in Black Panther) Bane was definitely an example of the former. He's not a dime a dozen mercenary like he is in most animated/game adaptations, He's an outright super-villain.

 

[Erzengel]

Nice that CA Trilogy is getting love here. Even if it was down 10 votes, I would have thought it was still a strong showing.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Batman Begins is better than all three Cap films. TDK is better than all three Cap films. TDKR is worse than TWS, but comparable to CW narrative-wise. But vastly superior when it comes to cinematography and production design. TDK trilogy is a clear winner for me.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Batman built a surveillance system. That's about as smart as it gets.

Lucius did that.

Batman was one of the many characters in TDK who were written as being stupid to make the Joker look smart. The Joker could pretty much do anything he wanted as the police, mob, and Batman flailed about in a clueless manner.

That sort of writing has always bugged me. Kinda lazy. It tells me that a writer is not smart enough to write a smart character. The only recourse is to write all the other characters as idiots.

 

[Enriquespy]

Quite even poll, nice.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Lucius did that.

Batman was one of the many characters in TDK who were written as being stupid to make the Joker look smart. The Joker could pretty much do anything he wanted as the police, mob, and Batman flailed about in a clueless manner.

That sort of writing has always bugged me. Kinda lazy. It tells me that a writer is not smart enough to write a smart character. The only recourse is to write all the other characters as idiots.

Fox built something that maps an environment. Batman took that idea and built a mass surveillance system, listening in on all the phone calls and conversations in Gotham.

 

[BoredGuy]

Bruce Wayne doesn't actually stop being Batman when he's not wearing the costume and hes front and center of Rises. That's like saying Captain America takes a back seat in Civil War (which is a popular opinion)



If were talking evil plans, Zemo's is by far more elaborate and convoluted than Bane's is. Bane's was honestly pretty straight forward when you get down to it (slowly destroy Gotham while forcing Bruce to watch) if anything it made more sense. I don't agree about Bane being cheesy either. There's good over the top and bad over the top (like Klaw in Black Panther) Bane was definitely an example of the former. He's not a dime a dozen mercenary like he is in most animated/game adaptations, He's an outright super-villain.

I dunno, I disagree
on point 1- I'm talking about seeing Batman in action, not about how much screen time Christian Bale has. The entire first act he's a gimp with a cane, act 2 he gets his back broke and magically recovers in a cave, and act 3 he's one of several characters trying to save the city. One of the craziest things Civil War pulled off was still having Cap, somehow, firmly be the main character despite a sizeable ensemble. I didn't always feel that with Batman in TDKR

point 2- Zemo's plan was to use the events going on and his knowledge of his foes to tear the Avengers apart, something at which he succeeds, with admittedly a whole lotta luck. But Bane's plan involved a complete misunderstanding of the financial and military mechanisms of our society. You can't just steal a billionaire's money in an attack against wall street and have everybody say "huh, crazy, guess Bruce Wayne is broke now". You can't capture an entire police force (who wouldn't send all their men down there anyway) and not expect a military response. Same with releasing all of the prisoners and threatening the city with a nuke. Then he just waits a few months while Batman recovers from an injury he shouldn't be able to recover from. What would he have done if Bruce just stayed in that hole as a cripple? Become Mayor of Crime Central??

And we just gotta agree to disagree on the cheesy thing... his voice, the goatse mask, his tiny stature, the grandstanding, the chanting, it just didn't do it for me

 

[Awest66]

I dunno, I disagree
on point 1- I'm talking about seeing Batman in action, not about how much screen time Christian Bale has. The entire first act he's a gimp with a cane, act 2 he gets his back broke and magically recovers in a cave, and act 3 he's one of several characters trying to save the city. One of the craziest things Civil War pulled off was still having Cap, somehow, firmly be the main character despite a sizeable ensemble. I didn't always feel that with Batman in TDKR

Batman is more than just a costume, especially in that trilogy and in all honesty, Bruce really only does a bear minimum of "moping" in the first act. As soon as he's made aware of Bane, He's an active part of the plot from that point on and clearly leads the efforts to save the city. Side-Note, Bruce's back was dislocated, not broken. That's much quicker to heal from than if it were actually broken.

I don't know about Captain America being "firmly the main character", Many people say Iron Man is more the main character than he is and a popular opinion is that it's more "The Avengers 2.5" than a Cap film.

point 2- Zemo's plan was to use the events going on and his knowledge of his foes to tear the Avengers apart, something at which he succeeds, with admittedly a whole lotta luck. But Bane's plan involved a complete misunderstanding of the financial and military mechanisms of our society. You can't just steal a billionaire's money in an attack against wall street and have everybody say "huh, crazy, guess Bruce Wayne is broke now". You can't capture an entire police force (who wouldn't send all their men down there anyway) and not expect a military response. Same with releasing all of the prisoners and threatening the city with a nuke. Then he just waits a few months while Batman recovers from an injury he shouldn't be able to recover from. What would he have done if Bruce just stayed in that hole as a cripple? Become Mayor of Crime Central??

You've missed quite a few parts of Bane's plan here. Bane's men didn't steal any money or make any trades when they broke into the stock exchange, They used a program that assigned Bruce "put options" which are investments made many months in retrospect. It wouldn't matter if they voided all transactions made the day of the attack because the fraudulent reports go back much longer than the day in question. Fox himself even said they'd be able to prove fraud in the long term. Of course it's not a method that would work in the real world but it's certainly plausible in the world Nolan created.

There was a military response, They just couldn't do anything because Bane said he'd blow the bomb at the first sign of interference from the outside world. I've also talked about this a few times but they didn't send all of the police into the sewers, There's quite a few that remain top side that make up the resistance against Bane's rule. If Bruce hadn't been able to escape the pit, Bane would've come back to the pit after Gotham had been destroyed to give Bruce his "permission to die" so to speak

his voice, the goatse mask, his tiny stature, the grandstanding, the chanting, it just didn't do it for me

The voice and mask were both awesome and made for a far more memorable villain than most of the MCU's output.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Oh yeah...I didn't even touch on Evans being the ultimate portrayal of Cap ...while Bale was kinda meh.

 

[Awest66]

Oh yeah...I didn't even touch on Evans being the ultimate portrayal of Cap ...while Bale was kinda meh.

No more "meh" than Evans was.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Although I favour TDKT overall, I think Bale and Evans are equally great in their roles.

 

[Herofan]

I don't agree with that at all. The Joker may be the most talked about part of the movie but Batman is still the central character that drives the decisions of all the characters (Harvey, Joker) I've never understood this argument.

With Harvey being the one to claim the Batman identity it very much felt like he became the protagonist, at least he drove that part of the story.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Although I favour TDKT overall, I think Bale and Evans are equally great in their roles.

I completely agree with this. I will add though that the writing for both stories made MCU's Cap my favorite liveaction superhero.

 

[LvtLeeTDK]

Came back after a few months and Cap Trilogy is ahead. TDK is not unbeatable after all

 

[Awest66]

Came back after a few months and Cap Trilogy is ahead. TDK is not unbeatable after all

By one vote. They're basically dead even.

 

[Travesty]

Well, well, well....how the turntables have turned.

 

[Awest66]

A couple more votes to Caps side but their still in the exact same ballpark. I don't really count the Cap movies as a trilogy considering they don't take place right after the other (there's several MCU movies in between each of them)

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

A couple more votes to Caps side but their still in the exact same ballpark. I don't really count the Cap movies as a trilogy considering they don't take place right after the other (there's several MCU movies in between each of them)

A film trilogy isn't a term that's exclusive to three films that tell a consecutive story. A trilogy can, for example, even be three films with entirely different stories and characters but that share a theme.

 

[Awest66]

A film trilogy isn't a term that's exclusive to three films that tell a consecutive story. A trilogy can, for example, even be three films with entirely different stories and characters but that share a theme.

I doubt those movies usually have a ton of other movies in between them that you have to watch to keep up with them.

 

[Batmannerism]

Okay I have had a rethink.

Batman Begins > Cap TFA by quite a bit

I would say that BB set a new standard for origin films.

TDK > TWS but not by much.

TDK sets the standard by which all cbms are measured - it's the Godfather of cbms.
However TWS is also terrific, it elevates itself by adding strong thriller elements.
To me TDK wins because while it has the best ever cbm villain, Bale also shines as Batman and the supporting cast ( Caine, Freeman, Oldman etc) cannot be topped. However, the gap between these films is not that much.

TDKR < Civil War, by quite a bit.

Civil War is brilliant. Two strong performances by the leads, a very strong supporting cast - action sequences which are among the very best in any cbm.

TDKR loses a lot steam upon rewatches as the gaps in the plot and poor pacing undermine what could have been a very solid story.

Also, Bane's voice and mask were a complete mistake, undermining an otherwise impressive villain.

There is one other thing IMO that undermines the Cap trilogy, it isnt a complete story whereas the TDK trilogy tells the entire story of Batman - which is pretty damn ambitious. TDKR gets props for that.

Having said all that this is a very close race.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I doubt those movies usually have a ton of other movies in between them that you have to watch to keep up with them.

Obviously not as shared universes are new, but the point was just to dismantle a very narrow definition of what a trilogy is. Yours isn't supported by what is listed as trilogies in the film world.

There's also no need to stretch to such semantics in the first place. Either you accept the comparison as presented or you stay out of it. It's way too late to try to change it.

 

[Awest66]

Obviously not as shared universes are new, but the point was just to dismantle a very narrow definition of what a trilogy is. Yours isn't supported by what is listed as trilogies in the film world.

There's also no need to stretch to such semantics in the first place. Either you accept the comparison as presented or you stay out of it. It's way too late to try to change it.

How about this then? I feel the TDK Trilogy is more akin to a classic film trilogy.

 

[Chesterfield]

For me the winter soldier alone is a much better film than all 3 Nolan batman films. The same goes for Civil War for the fact that it successfully juggles much more characters while brilliantly introducing 2 new characters and all the while the film never losing its core focus on the central character (Cap) and then if course the third act with its amazing fight between Tony, Cap and Bucky and the emotional payoff that came with it. I found these all the more sincerely engaging than anything we got in TDKT. I'd put 1st Avenger slightly above BB too. Personally, I think making a successful Cap movie is harder than making a batman movie and MS did a brilliant job making this happen and making Cap one of the most beloved and badass cinematic comic book characters ever.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

How about this then? I feel the TDK Trilogy is more akin to a classic film trilogy.

That's fine and doesn't really have to be a feeling as it's pretty much a fact. It's the most basic form of what a film trilogy has been, with a pretty standard overall narrative.

As I already said the Cap trilogy is automatically an unusual kind as being a part of a coherent greater universe is something new in film.