Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[Awest66]

Batman's career was severely truncated in the third film, like we jumped from his origin to his retirement.

The trilogy was about the establishment of Batman as a symbol not how long he spent roughing up street crime. Nolan himself had this to say on the subject.

For me, The Dark Knight Rises (2012) is specifically and definitely the end of the Batman story as I wanted to tell it, and the open-ended nature of the film is simply a very important thematic idea that we wanted to get into the movie, which is that Batman is a symbol. He can be anybody, and that was very important to us. Not every Batman fan will necessarily agree with that interpretation of the philosophy of the character, but for me it all comes back to the scene between Bruce Wayne and Alfred in the private jet in Batman Begins (2005), where the only way that I could find to make a credible characterization of a guy transforming himself into Batman is if it was as a necessary symbol, and he saw himself as a catalyst for change and therefore it was a temporary process, maybe a five-year plan that would be enforced for symbolically encouraging the good of Gotham to take back their city. To me, for that mission to succeed, it has to end, so this is the ending for me, and as I say, the open-ended elements are all to do with the thematic idea that Batman was not important as a man, he's more than that. He's a symbol, and the symbol lives on.

Oh hell yeah. I like Spider-Man 3 more than Rises, horrible retcon and all. I'm used to disagreement.

Jeez, for every one problem in TDKR, I can name a dozen more in Spider-Man 3.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

while the TDK trilogy ventures a bit into the crime genre

Oh... So what you mean, it actually embraces the tone of its source material? I don't know if you ever read Batman comics, but the basic idea in them is that Batman is a vigilante who operates in a gritty urban setting with the help of a local cop.

where it doesn't excel as well among the competition.

How? The Dark Knight trilogy embraces the best elements of its source material and focuses on the existential nature of its characters rather than spectacle. The First Avenger and Civil War should've learned a thing or two from those. The First Avenger was just bad. Too safe and lazy. When I think of a Captain America origin movie, I think of something that's as gritty as those great comic book images by Steve Epting, where it's dirty and dark. Something like that great tank movie that the guy who did Suicide Squad made.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

This has always been one of the things that sat very poorly with me in this movie. Even if organised crime had been stopped, Batman would still be waging his war against other criminals. Muggers, murderers, burglars etc.

The point that the movie was making is fairly simple: Batman's main intent was to fix Gotham by getting rid of the corrupt infrastructures that prevented it from raising above corruption. His intent was never to wage war on crime till he dies. His point was to set an example that would shake things up. Because Dent's Act in The Dark Knight is set in motion, those infrastructures will be put behind bars. Those infrastructures involve corrupt politicians and cops. When you get rid of them, you get better social system and better police work. So now you'll have more good law enforces doing their job and dealing with petty crime. It's that simple, kids

 

[OutOfBoose]

That pit prison in TDKR worked like Lazarus Pit for Bruce. Maybe they needed to embrace mythical a bit more and straight up heal him with holy water and a chant, instead of secret techniques of dangling on ropes.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

My problem with Captain America trilogy is this: lack of consistency. Sure, it's always good when movies in the same franchise differ from each other, but in the case with Captain America, it's really jarring and speaks about the lack of quality rather than tone. The First Avenger is, to this day, in my view, one of the biggest wastes of potential in the MCU. It's right up there with Iron Man 3 on that scale. If you think about the premise that the movie has, it's borderline brilliant. With that premise, you can make a superhero movie that really feels unique and can stand alongside the best superhero origin stories. But what happened instead, we got a boring, safe, dull, lifeless cartoon.

Captain America: The First Avenger ruined its own premise. Here's why: The First Avenger is really bland. I think that movie would be fine if it was released in the early 2000's. But in a post-Batman-Begins world, it just doesn't seem to have a place. One thing I dislike about the film is how it missed the opportunity of making its tone more interesting had it done what Chris Nolan did with Batman Begins: in order for your titular character to feel unique, he has to be the most outlandish thing in your world. If you make the world around your character grounded, the character will stand out more by the nature of contrast. If the world is already outlandish, there is no contrast. Which is why, I think, Captain America feels like a such bland hero. If the world around him was actually gritty, dark, violent, and hopeless (like WW2 world should be), his optimistic, goody two shoes attitude and his bright costume would be more noticeable.?

And the other problem is that it's just tonally dull as well story-wise. When you look at the drawings of Cap in the WWII from Epting...

...everything is gritty and dirty. The First Avenger does not have any dirt and grit. It was too stylized and full of Americana. The story was dull with very little development for Cap and too much fluff in it.

You know what would be a good origin story for Cap? Just him and Bucky being on the battlefields of WW2. That's all you need. Because that's what the comics were. That's how you make the story and the characters compelling and explore them. Instead, we got too much fluff with Hydra, Red Skull, and Cap's team of stooges. Oh, and we also got boring romance (cuz, of course!). If The First Avenger wasn't the movie it was, and if Civil War was actually a Captain America movie, I think this discussion would have a point.

That's why I love Wonder Woman. It showed great contrast and its depiction of war was not cartoonish. Not realistic, but not comical either.

 

[shauner111]

Cap is not a trilogy so this thread should barely exist. Civil War is a sequel to Age of Ultron.

But i'll bite. TDK trilogy doesn't have a bad movie like the first Cap. Winter Soldier and Civil War are both solid, 3.5/5 would be my current rating for both. Winter Soldier tries to be TDK at times. TDK Trilogy wins. I'll take that one.

Batman Begins and The Dark Knight Rises are 4 out of 5 stars from me. Dark Knight is 4.5/5, a near masterpiece, and the only comic book movie i'd rate that high. Also, i don't care for the majority of the supporting characters in the Cap movies. It's just cool s**t happening. I always go with what makes me feel something.

 

[DACrowe]

This has always been one of the things that sat very poorly with me in this movie. Even if organised crime had been stopped, Batman would still be waging his war against other criminals. Muggers, murderers, burglars etc.

I know this is old but I just smiled seeing this again. Maybe the difference is Nolan's Bruce is liberal enough to realize that beating up poor people isn't how you improve society.

 

[WhoMani]

Civil War feels like a sequel to Age of Ultron and more like a Avengers movie (minus Thor and Hulk) but I can see why they decided to make it a Captain America movie due to the Winter Soldier having a major role in the film.
Anyway personally I feel that the Dark Knight trilogy is superior to the Captain America trilogy. I don't like First Avenger and its a forgettable film imo. Batman Begins is a great origin story and a great jumping on point for anyone who hasn't seen a Batman movie before.

Winter Soldier is fantastic and one of the best Marvel movies. But the Dark Knight is a better film than WS and it has one of the villains ever in the Joker. The Dark Knight is my favourite superhero movie and I don't think there will be another superhero movie that will top it.

The Dark Knight Rises was far too long for my taste and some parts of it didn't make sense (like how did Bruce get back into Gotham?). Talia was pointless and I felt that the character was underwritten (or poorly cast). Civil War was a fun movie and the fight scenes in that movie was spectacular.

Batman Begins > First Avenger
The Dark Knight > Winter Soldier
Civil War > Dark Knight Rises.

 

[Awest66]

(like how did Bruce get back into Gotham?)

The same way the army guys did, I assume. Anyways, it's not important, Bruce once sneaked into a mob bank surrounded by cops in broad daylight, why exactly can't he do something similar again?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

The same way the army guys did, I assume. Anyways, it's not important, Bruce once sneaked into a mob bank surrounded by cops in broad daylight, why exactly can't he do something similar again?

Victory (and his knee injury) defeated him.

 

[BaronZemo]

Cap's trilogy easily. I was severely disappointed by DKR. None of the Cap films disappointed me.

 

[FunkMiller]

I know this is old but I just smiled seeing this again. Maybe the difference is Nolan's Bruce is liberal enough to realize that beating up poor people isn't how you improve society.

And that’s a perfectly valid character beat, which I would have very much enjoyed seeing play out, but it’s never established in the story. As it stands, TDKR just tells us Bruce quit being Batman because he’d cleared up organised crime, and because Rachel got Jokerised. Neither of which seems consistent with the character Nolan had built up in the previous two movies, IMO.

 

[fan4stic]

And that’s a perfectly valid character beat, which I would have very much enjoyed seeing play out, but it’s never established in the story. As it stands, TDKR just tells us Bruce quit being Batman because he’d cleared up organised crime, and because Rachel got Jokerised. Neither of which seems consistent with the character Nolan had built up in the previous two movies, IMO.

That was his goal in basically, to show people the city doesn't belong to criminals and corrupt, in BB. In TDKR Bruce says that Batman wasn't needed anymore, they won. The idea arguably is that he's held in place by Rachel's death, which includes being Batman and he finds an excuse to be Batman again I think.

 

[Nardz937]

No Captain America movie is as good as The Dark Knight, but there is also no Cap movie as bad as DKR.

Still, Begins and Dark Knight I like more than any Cap movie. Dark Knight > Cap.

 

[titansupes]

And that’s a perfectly valid character beat, which I would have very much enjoyed seeing play out, but it’s never established in the story. As it stands, TDKR just tells us Bruce quit being Batman because he’d cleared up organised crime, and because Rachel got Jokerised. Neither of which seems consistent with the character Nolan had built up in the previous two movies, IMO.

How so? In both BB and TDK, he's all about dismantling the mob and cleaning up the police force. Once those things are accomplished, he's done as Batman. That was his goal from the outset (he just didn't take into account his own psychological need for Batman, or other super villains showing up).

As for Rachel, her death didn't really have anything to do with the (false) end of Batman. Her death had everything to do with him not living a proper life as Bruce Wayne ("You said that if the day ever came that Gotham didn't need a Batman, we'd be together. Did you mean it?" "Bruce, don't make me your only hope for a normal life"), in conjunction with what he viewed as a failure with the energy project and the previously mentioned psychological need for Batman.

 

[Awest66]

Jeez. this post is neck and neck now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again if the First Avenger doesn't disqualify Cap from having a great trilogy neither should DKR for Batman.

 

[3rdstone]

While I've got a few issues with Rises (but highly enjoyed it no matter what), I'll still have to say the TDK triloy holds up more for me. BB and TDK are always great at every rewatch. I really do love how the origin story of Steve is handled in The First Avenger, and his chemistry with Peggy was great as well. Lots of fun there, as I'd hoped.

But after that, when Red Skull (which I'd really was looking forward to, that casting got me hyped) and the other WW II stuff comes on, it all felt somewhat lacking to me. But I guess that's just me, I can understand people who loved the whole flick. Winter Soldier deserves all the praise though, one of the greatest MCU flicks IMHO. Civil War was quite fun, but felt to me more like some Marvel assembly flick with lots of heroes brawling instead of a true Cap movie. Again, just IMHO.

So, I'll stick to the TDK trilogy here.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I really only like one of the Batman trilogy. Batman Begins is fantastic. I can watch it over and over.

TDK started feeling like a 6 hour movie by the time I tried to watch it a second time. When the Joker isn't onscreen I start looking at my watch. If anyone is going to quibble about CW not being solely about Cap than the same is true of TDK. It's not really a Batman movie at all....it's a Joker movie.

TDKR is ok. I don't hate it or like it. It's just kinda there. Batman is barely in it.

My main issue wit TDK trilogy is it doesn't even feel like it's in the comic book genre at all. I like the genre for the fantastic elements. Batman is a guy in a bat suit at the end of the day. You can only do so much with that. It didn't help that the fight scenes are kinda pathetic. Maybe if they explored the "detective" part of his character more I would like it better. So the main character is kinda weak. He can't fight, he's not a great detective, and he isn't even very smart in TDK. He's written as stupid to make the Joker look smart. Then in TDKR he doesn't even know the Catwoman is working for him or that his employee is out to get him. She literally stabs him in the back. Nice detective work there, Bats.

Kinda the opposite with the Cap trilogy. Started slow and built to greatness. I didn't care much for TFA. The first half was good but it got all rushed in the 2nd half as they had to hurry up and get him into the ice in time for the Avengers movie. He barely got to know Peggy at all. A lot of wasted potential.

But boy did that change with TWS! That's right up there at the top with my favorite CB movies. Finally got to see the supreme fighting skills of Cap onscreen and it was glorious. I doubt there is a better fight scene than the elevator scene. Evans hit it out of the park. The whole movie flows perfectly. BW and Falcon are used to great effect. Nick Fury even has his best scenes ever. Redford is...well...Redford. He's awesome as the villain as always. Bucky is a great villain too so that's two in one movie. He's the Darth Vader to Pierce's Emperor.

Civil War isn't quite up to that standard but it's close. Both Evans and RDJ are great. That scene at the end is incredible. Powerful moment when Cap drops the shield. The airport scene is of course famous for a reason. They managed to put a little fun into the movie along with the "comic book" feel that I buy a ticket to see. Black Panther is better here than in his own movie imo.

So Cap pretty easy.

 

[DACrowe]

I will say now that a few years have past since CW... the Cap "trilogy" doesn't feel that much like a trilogy to me. CW more and more looks like an Avengers movie after Infinity War, because the fallout from CW (what little there is) occurs in IW and, ironically, more so then in Ant-Man and the Wasp. CW feels more like a penultimate chapter before the big finale of IW and IW Part 2.

As time passes, TDK just seems more whole, while the only Cap movie that feels unimpeded by the demands of the Marvel universe building is TWS, and I write that as someone who thinks CW is a better movie even so.

 

[BoredGuy]

This is still a tough one for me

I agree with the above^ about TDK being a better full story and more complete trilogy. BB and TDK were amazing the moment I saw them, and have held up very well in the years since outside of TDK feeling a bit bloated and slow at times. TDKR I still hate tremendously, mainly because it felt like such a step down from the previous two.

Cap started out solidly without totally blowing me away, but First Avenger has also aged quite well. TWS is on par with TDK in my opinion. The action is better, the pacing is better, but the villain is obviously not quite at the same level. But the biggest thing that puts TWS over TDK for me is the lead. Cap in TWS was everything I could ever hope to see from a portrayal of Captain America, whereas Bats in TDK came out second fiddle to the Joker.

But, like DACrowe said, even though Civil War is more Avengers than a Cap movie, it is just so much better than TDKR, so I dunno.
I'm leaning Cap, but that could change more over time

 

[Awest66]

It's not really a Batman movie at all....it's a Joker movie.

I don't agree with that at all. The Joker may be the most talked about part of the movie but Batman is still the central character that drives the decisions of all the characters (Harvey, Joker) I've never understood this argument.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Maybe if they explored the "detective" part of his character more I would like it better. So the main character is kinda weak. He can't fight, he's not a great detective, and he isn't even very smart in TDK. He's written as stupid to make the Joker look smart.

Batman built a surveillance system. That's about as smart as it gets.

 

[Limonade]

It all comes down to the final films of the trilogy.

Civil War stuck the landing better than the Dark Knight Rises.

TDKR just felt rushed.

 

[Awest66]

It all comes down to the final films of the trilogy.

Civil War stuck the landing better than the Dark Knight Rises.

TDKR just felt rushed.

How was TDKR anymore "rushed" than Civil War? Both movies have basically the exact same critical scores across the internet.

On the whole final movie argument, There actually is quite a bit in Rises that I prefer to Civil War even if the latter is a better movie by a hair (for example, Bane is by far a better villain than Zemo)

 

[BoredGuy]

Civil War for me was much much more emotional, the building the MCU had done over 8 years really made the impact of that movie much more intense. Whereas TDKR felt somewhat disconnected from the other two movies, picking up ten years or whatever after TDK. And with no Rachel, no Harvey, Batman taking a backseat for like 2/3 of the movie, and some new characters like Talia that I just couldn't get invested in, the connection to those characters wasn't as strong as Civil War.

And I disagree about the villains... while I was disappointed Zemo didn't get a more comic accurate look, he was less cheesy, and his plan actually worked. People can say what they want about the plan relying on convenience, but at least it made some sense.