Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[DarthSkywalker]

WB dropped the ball and should have let someone else make it and not end the franchise. Should have gotten a new director and had this be the start of their cinematic universe. Especially given what we got with Nolan on this, but even if Rises was a really good, solid movie I would have gone with someone else.

 

[Hammer!]

They dropped the ball on a movie that cleared a billion?

No. I don’t think so.

Your idea that they should have spun a DCEU from Nolan’s movies is falling into the same trap that WB themselves have done - namely that you need to create a shared universe, copying Marvel. You don’t.

The Dark Knight trilogy should have been the template for stand alone trilogies of DC’s other characters. That would’ve worked much better.

Not even just for the sake of the DCEU but for Batman. We could have had more Batman movies from the series. Nolan ruined that with a third film that closed everything and the film paled to the first two anyways. Batman on film is in its lowest point since 1998. Highly doubt we would be saying that if the Dark knight series continued.

 

[Hammer!]

We would have had two very good, one excellent series of films to start an inevitable shared universe instead of a mediocre superman movie and dumpster fire Batman teamup to build things up and still have some semblance of good will. A billion dollar franchise would still be ongoing and Batman wouldn't be at the lowest point he's been in twenty years. Hindsight of course, but it's the easy choice over a mediocre, boring, and hugely disappointing third film by a guy who hellbent on making sure no one could continue a franchise he was over with even before he made it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We ended up with possibly the best film trilogy of all time, brought by one of the best directors of his generation. But hey, what matters is a shared universe... nah. It was Nolan's Batman, whole cloth and that is why it worked. There is no weird, random, below par third film in the bunch like others. There was no massive studio interference like with Spider-Man 3.

 

[The Batman]

I just wish, for once, that the people who act like TDKR was a cinematic crime against humanity actually had ideas that weren't blatantly worse than the ideas Nolan put into his final product.

The Nolan trilogy is not the MCU. You don't just swap out directors and everything will be hunky dory. Had NolanVerse Batman actually continued, it would've ended up like the Reeve Superman films. Or the original X-Men Trilogy. Or The Burton/Schumacher Batman series.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I just wish, for once, that the people who act like TDKR was a cinematic crime against humanity actually had ideas that weren't blatantly worse than the ideas Nolan put into his final product.

The Dark Knight Rises is full of great ideas imo. I think its biggest problem is trying to squash down a 4 hour epic, into an IMAX running time. But the more I watch it, the more I like it. It has these big moments, that do the character and the trilogy such justice.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I just wish, for once, that the people who act like TDKR was a cinematic crime against humanity actually had ideas that weren't blatantly worse than the ideas Nolan put into his final product.

The Nolan trilogy is not the MCU. You don't just swap out directors and everything will be hunky dory. Had NolanVerse Batman actually continued, it would've ended up like the Reeve Superman films. Or the original X-Men Trilogy. Or The Burton/Schumacher Batman series.

Or Batman vs. Superman.

 

[The Batman]

The Dark Knight Rises is full of great ideas imo. I think its biggest problem is trying to squash down a 4 hour epic, into an IMAX running time. But the more I watch it, the more I like it. It has these big moments, that do the character and the trilogy such justice.

I think the good ideas in the film definitely outweigh the bad. The movie isn't the trainwreck some make it out to be.

 

[Erzengel]

I just wish, for once, that the people who act like TDKR was a cinematic crime against humanity actually had ideas that weren't blatantly worse than the ideas Nolan put into his final product.

The Nolan trilogy is not the MCU. You don't just swap out directors and everything will be hunky dory. Had NolanVerse Batman actually continued, it would've ended up like the Reeve Superman films. Or the original X-Men Trilogy. Or The Burton/Schumacher Batman series.

I don't think TDKR is a cinematic crime against humanity (I enjoy it), but on the opposite end, I don't think it's TDK 2.0 or even one small step below it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Nolan made arguably the best superhero flick in 05. He then topped it in 08, but quite a bit imo. He then made something closer to Begins and the world ended. t:

I guess it is better to start off in a more average manner. Keeps expectations in check, and the when you make legitimately good movies, it somehow elevates the first one or two.

 

[Erzengel]

Closer as in below BB, I'd agree.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I have it below Begins, but then again, I list Begins as the 4th best superhero flick. TDKR in the 5 or 6 range.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am not a fan of TDKR. I felt it really dropped the ball. It's just an inferior rehash of BB packaged as a sequel. It reminds me of Ghostbusters II or other sequels like it in that way. I would watch BB or TDK anytime. I am a collector, so I own TDKR. Since I bought it, I have not watched it once. That says something. It's a shame because I bought OW tickets for it on 2 days way before it came out thinking I would love it and want to immediately watch it again, like BB and TDK. I wanted to love the movie. To say I was disappointed with it is an understatement.

But I don't hold a grudge against Nolan. I love almost all of his films. Everybody gets 1.

 

[The Batman]

I guess it is better to start off in a more average manner. Keeps expectations in check, and the when you make legitimately good movies, it somehow elevates the first one or two.

Pretty much sums up why the Cap trilogy often gets praised the way it does.

Me personally, TWS and CW don't change TFA being anything more than Ok-Decent.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not a fan of TDKR. I felt it really dropped the ball. It's just an inferior rehash of BB packaged as a sequel. It reminds me of Ghostbusters II or other sequels like it in that way. I would watch BB or TDK anytime. I am a collector, so I own TDKR. Since I bought it, I have not watched it once. That says something. It's a shame because I bought OW tickets for it on 2 days way before it came out thinking I would love it and want to immediately watch it again, like BB and TDK. I wanted to love the movie. To say I was disappointed with it is an understatement.

But I don't hold a grudge against Nolan. I love almost all of his films. Everybody gets 1.

It is nothing like Begins...

Perhaps you having not watched it since buying it, is why you think it is a rehash of Begins. t:

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Pretty much sums up why the Cap trilogy often gets praised the way it does.

Me personally, TWS and CW don't change TFA being anything more than Ok-Decent.

I really like the First Avenger. I enjoy Steve and Peggy to a tremendous degree, and the same with the majority of the cast. Jones is really fun. But it is like two thirds of a movie to me. so while I do really enjoy it, I don't find it all that great and I kind of zone out when the montage starts to when Cap hits the base. Then it engages me again.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It is nothing like Begins...

Perhaps you having not watched it since buying it, is why you think it is a rehash of Begins. t:

No, it is because it really is. The League of Shadow have the same goal of destroying Gotham. The film is about them stealing a Wayne tech weapon, trying to use it to create an atmosphere of fear in the city (in BB it is literal fear, in TDKR it is the fear of oblivion and instant destruction), the film ends with a chase sequence that is basically the same as BB: trying to steal said weapon from an Al Ghul before it can destroy the city (this time on a truck instead of a subway train). Further, much like in Ghostbusters II they have to come out of retirement and kind of relearn/master what they learned, Batman has to do this as well. Sequels like that I find to be lazy.

The biggest differences between the 2 movies are visual improvements that they learned making TDK. But from a story perspective, I find the movie overall lazy.

 

[Snow Queen]

I like the Captain America trilogy, but it's one I like less the more I go back to it. It's certainly far from bad, but I find them less enjoyable every time. First Avenger has become a bit of a slog to go back to for me, and though I enjoy it, it's mainly just for Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell. Winter Soldier I think is probably the best made in the trilogy for the first two acts, but I think it shoots it's attempts at social commentary in the foot, and the third act I find rather dull. Civil War I like a lot. It's my favourite of them as, though it's probably less well made than the first two acts of Winter Soldier, it doesn't annoy me by attempting social commentary and criticisms of mass surveillance and then ducking out with "oh it's fine, the evil Nazis did it." It also, in my opinion, has one of the MCU's best third acts. But both Russo films also have to contend with poorly set up dynamics. I don't care about the Cap/Iron Man relationship until Civil War, nor Cap/Bucky until Winter Soldier, and the lack of set up does detract from what they do, despite overall I feel accomplishing it well.

So, that all being said, The Dark Knight Trilogy by a wide margin. I don't think we've had a superhero trilogy that has come close since, but I hope we will again soon.

 

[The Batman]

I really like the First Avenger. I enjoy Steve and Peggy to a tremendous degree, and the same with the majority of the cast. Jones is really fun. But it is like two thirds of a movie to me. so while I do really enjoy it, I don't find it all that great and I kind of zone out when the montage starts to when Cap hits the base. Then it engages me again.

I pretty much zone out when the origin part is over, and only really get back into it during the end.

Peggy and her romance with Cap is the only reason I have any interest in revisiting TFA.

IWinter Soldier I think is probably the best made in the trilogy for the first two acts, but I think it shoots it's attempts at social commentary in the foot, and the third act I find rather dull.

I more or less agree this, though I liked parts of the third act. The last time I watched the film, I pretty much loved everything from the beginning up until the elevator fight. By the time Steve and Nat confront computer Zola, I felt that the film had lost some of its earlier spark.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, it is because it really is. The League of Shadow have the same goal of destroying Gotham.The film is about them stealing a Wayne tech weapon, trying to use it to create an atmosphere of fear in the city (in BB it is literal fear, in TDKR it is the fear of oblivion and instant destruction), the film ends with a chase sequence that is basically the same as BB: trying to steal said weapon from an Al Ghul before it can destroy the city (this time on a truck instead of a subway train). Further, much like in Ghostbusters II they have to come out of retirement and kind of relearn/master what they learned, Batman has to do this as well. Sequels like that I find to be lazy.

The biggest differences between the 2 movies are visual improvements that they learned making TDK. But from a story perspective, I find the movie overall lazy.

The League of Shadow's goal in Begins is not to "destroy" Gotham. It is burn it down and start again. Its a scary attempt at rationalizing the destruction of the city and its people, so it can be reborn into something better. In TDKR, the villains plot is a story of revenge, which is why the plan is a slow burn. If they were there to destroy the city for the same reasons as the League in Begins, they could have done that without much hassle. They take over the city, Bruce's arsenal, and make Bruce watch it literally die. They torture the city to torture him. Their very plans tells the different between Ra's and his daughter.

By the way, Begins does not end with a chase scene. It ends with a fight in the train that is a distraction for Ra's, so Gordon can destroy the train bridge. Bruce is specific not trying to stop the train. Heck never even uses the Tumbler to chase it. TDKR ends with an actual chase that ends with Bruce removing the bomb from the city, so as to avoid mass destruction.

You have taken 2 plot points in the film, while ignoring any sort of context, in a series of film built on themes and nuances. You ignore any character work for Bruce, Selina, Rachel, Gordon or Bane. You ignore the pit and its ever apparent symbolism. You ignore everything about Begins and TDKR outside of a couple of plot points, while ignoring how they play out in completely different manners and with completely different motivations. Its almost like you saw it only once.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I like the Captain America trilogy, but it's one I like less the more I go back to it. It's certainly far from bad, but I find them less enjoyable every time. First Avenger has become a bit of a slog to go back to for me, and though I enjoy it, it's mainly just for Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell. Winter Soldier I think is probably the best made in the trilogy for the first two acts, but I think it shoots it's attempts at social commentary in the foot, and the third act I find rather dull. Civil War I like a lot. It's my favourite of them as, though it's probably less well made than the first two acts of Winter Soldier, it doesn't annoy me by attempting social commentary and criticisms of mass surveillance and then ducking out with "oh it's fine, the evil Nazis did it." It also, in my opinion, has one of the MCU's best third acts. But both Russo films also have to contend with poorly set up dynamics. I don't care about the Cap/Iron Man relationship until Civil War, nor Cap/Bucky until Winter Soldier, and the lack of set up does detract from what they do, despite overall I feel accomplishing it well.

So, that all being said, The Dark Knight Trilogy by a wide margin. I don't think we've had a superhero trilogy that has come close since, but I hope we will again soon.

The Incredibles trilogy is coming.

 

[Mjölnir]

I still think Begins is the best Batman film. It's certainly not the most ambitious of them but it's the one that actually fires on the most cylinders in my view.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The League of Shadow's goal in Begins is not to "destroy" Gotham. It is burn it down and start again. Its a scary attempt at rationalizing the destruction of the city and its people, so it can be reborn into something better. In TDKR, the villains plot is a story of revenge, which is why the plan is a slow burn. If they were there to destroy the city for the same reasons as the League in Begins, they could have done that without much hassle. They take over the city, Bruce's arsenal, and make Bruce watch it literally die. They torture the city to torture him. Their very plans tells the different between Ra's and his daughter.

By the way, Begins does not end with a chase scene. It ends with a fight in the train that is a distraction for Ra's, so Gordon can destroy the train bridge. Bruce is specific not trying to stop the train. Heck never even uses the Tumbler to chase it. TDKR ends with an actual chase that ends with Bruce removing the bomb from the city, so as to avoid mass destruction.

You have taken 2 plot points in the film, while ignoring any sort of context, in a series of film built on themes and nuances. You ignore any character work for Bruce, Selina, Rachel, Gordon or Bane. You ignore the pit and its ever apparent symbolism. You ignore everything about Begins and TDKR outside of a couple of plot points, while ignoring how they play out in completely different manners and with completely different motivations. Its almost like you saw it only once.

I am not ignoring these things, but again they come off as sequel building like Ghostbusters II does. Ghostbusters II is not an exact copy of Ghostbusters, but it has many of the same plot elements that overall make a film I don't feel is creative. There is also plenty of character work I dislike in the movie.

As for the differences you cited above in my examples, these are very minor differences that don't change me thinking I am basically watching the same events.

I don't begrudge yoy guys who love TDKR. You are allowed to.love what you love. The movie does nothing for me. Also for the record, I saw the film twice and with movies I have a great memory. Using that as an excuse is condescending.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I pretty much zone out when the origin part is over, and only really get back into it during the end.

Peggy and her romance with Cap is the only reason I have any interest in revisiting TFA.



I more or less agree this, though I liked parts of the third act. The last time I watched the film, I pretty much loved everything from the beginning up until the elevator fight. By the time Steve and Nat confront computer Zola, I felt that the film had lost some of its earlier spark.

Poor man's Person of Interest ending really sticks out now, but I love the personal stuff with Cap and Bucky, and Cap's general being Cap-ness. Also probably my favorite Marvel ending. I really like where they decided to cut it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not ignoring these things, but again they come off as sequel building like Ghostbusters II does. Ghostbusters II is not an exact copy of Ghostbusters, but it has many of the same plot elements that overall make a film I don't feel is creative. There is also plenty of character work I dislike in the movie.

As for the differences you cited above in my examples, these are very minor differences that don't change me thinking I am basically watching the same events.

I don't begrudge yoy guys who love TDKR. You are allowed to.love what you love. The movie does nothing for me. Also for the record, I saw the film twice and with movies I have a great memory. Using that as an excuse is condescending.

Infinity War is a rehash of the Avengers. An alien force attacks earth to gain control of the Infinity Stones. In both, they use Infinity Stones to do so. Both have fights in New York. Both have Tony Stark go into space, where he and Pepper have a long distance phone call, after sharing one domestic scene in the first act to remind us of their stock romance. Both movies end with CGI slugfest. Both films have a Hulk and the line to prove it.