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BOUGHT/THOUGHT for 8/29/07!

If that's re: my review, I was referring more to the Ultimates than to Civil War. For all of CW's faults, it had maybe half of the heavy-handedness of Millar's Ultimates.

It is mostly Gyrich that's spouting this hootenanny, yeah, but that doesn't make it much easier to swallow. It was overdone in the 90s and continues to be overdone now. The fact that all of the surrounding heroes are just complacent and giving their tacit approval of all this doesn't make them look much better, either, like when the X-Men just sort of allowed O*N*E to turn their home into a concentration camp. The only time anyone has even sort of rebuked Gyrich on anything so far is Gauntlet, and it wasn't even regarding anything that bad. In fact, Gauntlet's rebuke itself was sort of a loaded gun in and of itself. All soldiers are heroes? Really?

So, wait...you don't like Gyrich because...we're not supposed to like Gyrich? I don't get it. The guy's a villian, more or less. You are in fact, not supposed to like him. I guess I wouldn't have thought there'd be a problem with that somehow.
 
Is he the "villain?" No one's fighting him. No one's even seeking to undermine his authority. He's the guy who's ordering around all the good guys and they're listening to him without complaint. He runs a good portion of the entire operation that the series is based on. He might be a villain in broad comic book universe terms...but as far as this series is concerned, he's not the antagonist.

If this was a series about a group of people working to bring down Gyrich, the whole "not liking him" angle would work. This is a series, however, about a group of people working for and working with Gyrich.
 
Is he the "villain?" No one's fighting him. No one's even seeking to undermine his authority. He's the guy who's ordering around all the good guys and they're listening to him without complaint. He runs a good portion of the entire operation that the series is based on. He might be a villain in broad comic book universe terms...but as far as this series is concerned, he's not the antagonist.

If this was a series about a group of people working to bring down Gyrich, the whole "not liking him" angle would work. This is a series, however, about a group of people working for and working with Gyrich.

Like Full Metal Jacket?:huh: :o :dry:
 
Never saw. Probably wouldn't like. Still gay, remember. Like Carmen San D.
 
Is he the "villain?" No one's fighting him. No one's even seeking to undermine his authority. He's the guy who's ordering around all the good guys and they're listening to him without complaint. He runs a good portion of the entire operation that the series is based on. He might be a villain in broad comic book universe terms...but as far as this series is concerned, he's not the antagonist.

If this was a series about a group of people working to bring down Gyrich, the whole "not liking him" angle would work. This is a series, however, about a group of people working for and working with Gyrich.
He's ordering around people who agreed with the SHRA. When they agreed to it, they agreed to all its terms, which includes submitting themselves to the CSA's authority. War Machine and Gauntlet are both soldiers and have retained that soldier mentality through their superhero careers. It's not an unthinking, follow-orders-at-all-cost mentality, but it is a mentality that stresses loyalty in all but the most absolutely extreme cases. Hank has shown he's willing to go along with the agenda up to a pretty deep point. Justice is an idealist, so he's compromising here and there to try and correct the system from within; for what it's worth, I suspect he'll burn out, as most idealists do, and either seek out the new New Warriors or just quit the Initiative and retire.

The trainees are easy to influence because they're impressionable newbies, unsure of themselves as heroes or, in a lot of cases, even as people. They're easy to force into doing things they might not like to through intimidation and orders and threats of reprisals if they don't. Some are still starting to rebel in spite of that, and I think we'll see that come to a head at some point.
 
I'm sure it'll turn a coup at some point but I can't see how it'll do so without overturning or seriously altering the entire SHRA. And I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future; in the meantime this is a comic about one of the most unpleasant places run by the most unpleasant people with "recruits" -- draftees, technically -- who are pretty unpleasant even at the best of times. I just don't see the payoff.
 
You know if they ever made a comic called "The Lesbian Escapades of Carmen San Diego," it would sell a million copies.
 
Even more if Cho drew it. Course it would be late all the time.
 
I'm sure it'll turn a coup at some point but I can't see how it'll do so without overturning or seriously altering the entire SHRA. And I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future; in the meantime this is a comic about one of the most unpleasant places run by the most unpleasant people with "recruits" -- draftees, technically -- who are pretty unpleasant even at the best of times. I just don't see the payoff.
I like most of the recruits, actually, so I'm pleased with it.
 
I like most of the recruits, actually, so I'm pleased with it.

Ditto. This last issue made me into a Trauma fan, and I've been enjoying Cloud 9 and Rage. Bengal and Constrictor work well together. I'm intrigued by MVP's death/non-death and Hardball's a dick. Komodo, I'd like to get some more characterization for, as she seems like a typical angry chick to me. And of course there's Vance, Hank and Rhodey.
 
Tarene's been showing up in almost every issue as well. That helps. I'm very easy to please when it comes to Thor-related stuff.
 
She's there. That's enough for me. Maybe the real Thor can have a little cameo in A:TI and reunite with her. This hope sustains me.
 
I'm with TheCorpulent1 and photojones2 in terms of AVENGERS: INITIATIVE. The mantra of the SHRA invading people's lives down to the core has been consistant for a while.

Besides, there are people out to undermine Gyrich. Hardball was blackmailed by an outside party into stealing one of their SPIN-Tech darts and essentially causing Iron Man to get rocked by the Hulk. Someone wanted their hands on that tech for their own aims. When Trauma saw that Cloud 9 was becoming more brutal thanks to the camp's teachings (such as when Gauntlet and the others essentially told her to slaughter HYDRA agents without remourse), he was apalled and offered to help her avoid becoming something that scares her. Justice obviously isn't going lock-step with the program and Yellowjacket has pangs of plot-convient guilt.

In terms of characters, I like the new recuits, I like the C-Listers and I pretty much like everyone aside for Gyrich or Gauntlet. But we all know characters like those two DO exist, especially in the military or in government service, who do underhanded stuff and have black ops stuff.

Technically, the Marvel U.S. government has never run a superhero army before so it comes to fashion they would entrust some reliable if not crusty military figures. I mean, there was X-Factor, but they were essentially allowed to do their own thing. Freedom Force was only about 7 members, half of them criminals, and that ended in flames. They've never run a superhero team beyond either a handful of members or offering some laison before. Plus, as we see, Gyrich really dislikes superhumans as a whole. In a way it is a shame, they have instructors from the X-Men or the New Warriors who should know how to properly run a training ground without making it a death camp, but they aren't in charge.

Would you rather something like MIGHTY AVENGERS, where the superheroes we just saw exploiting Cap's death to entrap their former allies, or teaming up with Bullseye, Venom, and Lady Deathstrike when appropriate, or stomping all over the Bill of Rights if someone has a cape in an ally, suddenly being sun-drenched heroes with no mention or attonement for the recent bad stuff? I don't buy it. And in fact I would never "buy" an Initiative camp that wasn't at least moderately corrupt, considering how corrupt the Marvel government has been for a good, long time. Long before CW. Whether they are making mutant death machines or offering amnesties for any psychopath who promises to be an army grunt for a while (even the Eddie Brock Venom was a government agent for a time, and he'd murdered prison guards and a few cops).
 
I don't "rather" this comic be anything...I mean, not really. I get what it is and what its purpose is, and I'm not saying that anything needs to be changed. I just think that this comic is basically "Ultimates" in tone and message: heavy-handed socio-political arbitrariness delivered with all the nuance and subtlety of a Michael Moore film...which is to say, not a lot. Only substantial difference is that it's set in the 616 universe, and I didn't like it then so I'm not liable to like it now. I'd practically compare it to the Thunderbolts, although I'm sorta beginning to think that Ellis is attempting to pull a Goddamn Batman with that stunt via "almost-parody" in the deliverance of the subject matter.

Wasn't it you, Dread, who often lamented the fact that most Marvel heroes are anti-heroes now and "grim and gritty" was the unfortunate trend that had to be adhered to? What makes this comic so different from that archetype? If you (all you guys in general) like that sort of thing, well, more power to you and I'm glad you found a book that fits your style; but if you don't, then why make an exception for this particular instance? Is it less stated than how we normally see "grim and gritty" anti-heroics nowadays? Is it just the quality in which the archetype is portrayed? Is it Dan Slott?
 
I don't mind it because in A:TI, we're getting more of the other side of the story. The overall setting of the book is a very Ultimates-esque, grim-&-gritty, "this is what you get when the government controls superhumans" scenario, but as Trauma and Cloud 9 and Rage and his rogue bunch of initiates have shown, there are people within the system that are willing to fight to keep themselves from falling into that archetype. I like the give and take between how far the corrupt Initiative leaders are willing to go and how much the mostly innocent initiates are willing to take, how much Justice is willing to compromise before the system finally forces him to a breaking point, etc. There are a lot of little conflicts with people who are against that Ultimates concept that you so despise.

The difference is that in The Ultimates, all of the heroes went right along with it, even those for whom it made absolutely no sense, like Millar's hippie-Thor. Slott's presenting a more diverse approach to the concept, in my opinion. Plus, I think the whole 52-State Initiative status quo of the 616 universe is only temporary anyway.
She's got actual Asgardian powers, right?
Her powers are her own, drastically reduced powers, shifted to more closely resemble Thor's powers. In reality, Tarene is the Designate, the universal savior who's meant to usher sentient life into its next stage of evolution. But because of a whole thing with Thanos and another one of his total universal domination schemes, she was placed under Thor's protection and kind of became a Thor fangirl. She even created a secret identity as Jake Olsen's cousin and started going to high school.
 
I don't "rather" this comic be anything...I mean, not really. I get what it is and what its purpose is, and I'm not saying that anything needs to be changed. I just think that this comic is basically "Ultimates" in tone and message: heavy-handed socio-political arbitrariness delivered with all the nuance and subtlety of a Michael Moore film...which is to say, not a lot. Only substantial difference is that it's set in the 616 universe, and I didn't like it then so I'm not liable to like it now. I'd practically compare it to the Thunderbolts, although I'm sorta beginning to think that Ellis is attempting to pull a Goddamn Batman with that stunt via "almost-parody" in the deliverance of the subject matter.

Wasn't it you, Dread, who often lamented the fact that most Marvel heroes are anti-heroes now and "grim and gritty" was the unfortunate trend that had to be adhered to? What makes this comic so different from that archetype? If you (all you guys in general) like that sort of thing, well, more power to you and I'm glad you found a book that fits your style; but if you don't, then why make an exception for this particular instance? Is it less stated than how we normally see "grim and gritty" anti-heroics nowadays? Is it just the quality in which the archetype is portrayed? Is it Dan Slott?

Right off the bat, you, BrianWilly, out of ALL posters, have absolutely NO right to even hint at the possibility that I or other posters are giving A:TI a pass because it is Dan Slott writing. And the answer to why is your very title. You're the Disciple of Whedon. You worship anything Whedon puts to paper or text. I've never seen you in your number reviews give anything he wrote a score of below 7.5 (out of 10.0). Now, I normally don't hold this against you because we all have our personal biases, and you at least are honest about yours and never try to hide it or walk away from it. But that also means you have no right to criticize whether anyone else has a writer bias, when you wear yours on your sleeve. That's...that's Congress Politician level hypocrisy there, or very close to it.

Maybe I do have a bias towards Dan Slott's work. If so, all you can answer without looking like a complete hypocritical schmuck is, "Fine."

The problem with THE ULTIMATES was that it was, firstly, much more heavy handed, and secondly, AVENGERS: INITIATIVE has more portrayals of "the other side". They also don't have characters acting wildly counter to what they did before. I know, I know, someone will say, Ultimate is Ultimate, and you can have Ultimate creations do whatever. That still doesn't remove the fact that it is jarring to see someone calling himself Capt. America kick a man when he's down, or pull uzi's from behind, or work with a military that shoves children to the ground.

Slott is portraying Gyrich as a major dick. He's BEEN a major dick for about 90% of his written history. Gauntlet is an original creation, and not in the way an "Ultimized" character is, so he can do whatever he wants. Slott is also showing that the Marvel U.S. Government has a shadowy, dasdardly underbelly...something else that has BEEN happening for a good 20 years of comics. Any supervillain, whether mutant terrorist or just superhuman killers who are willing to sign some dotted line for the fed get badges and purged records. Brotherhood of Mutants, Venom, Puppet Master, Sabretooth, the list goes on and on. It never works, they always go back to crime, and the feds NEVER show such leeway for actual bonafide superheroes. The fed sporatically sanctions creation of Sentinal robots to nuke enemies. They've quarenteened mutants. During the ACTS OF VENGENCE story in the 80's, a law very simular to the SHRA was almost passed. Then there was the MUTANT REGISTRATION ACT and all the chaos that caused. All the monsters created in attempts to replicate the Hulk or Captain America. The List goes on and on.

So in spite of that history, had Slott created an Initiative that was all hunky dorey, with little flaws besides not enough soda in the vending machine and spotless from the top down, it wouldn't have worked. CIVIL WAR bogged the entire line down into the depths of darkness in a way, true. But that doesn't mean that every book to rise out of that should be whitewashed, because then it reads phony, like MIGHTY AVENGERS does with former a-hole heroes and backstabbers suddenly looking saintly.

In THE ULTIMATES, the only voice who spoke out against what was going on was Thor, who spent a good chunk of the second volume beaten down and in a cell. In AVENGERS: INITIATIVE, plenty of voices come out against what goes on. The loudest and most frequent is Justice, with Yellowjacket occasionally after him. Many of the recruits have had varying ideas of what they expected and then reality is hitting them. When Komodo, War Machine, and the SPIN tech team went after Spider-Man, what happened? Did they oppress and humiliate him, or did Spider-Man, the character the audience was rooting for in that scene, ESCAPE and PREVAIL? Are there not forces out there looking to undermine the A:I, and made Hardball steal something for them? And is Gauntlet not about to get a well deserved beating?

Plus, AVENGERS INITIATIVE comes out at a rate above 4 times a year, unlike ULTIMATES.

This is a fruitless debate; taste is subjective and after an issue narrated by Gyrich, a rather loathesome character who NEVER should be in charge of a place like this if the world had any fairness, I can understand some bitter feelings. He calls metahumans "human baggage" if they're not automations under his complete control. He cuts breaks to former criminals that he NEVER does to trainees that he himself places in reckless circumstances. But there are some layers in the onion of A:I, there are some likeable characters, there is good art, solid action, some spunky dialogue and a dark sense of humor at times, and a strong sense of continuity, the best in any Avengers title right now. So if I make an exception to the rule against some of the stuff you mentioned, to quote Super-Shredder, "Then so BE IT!"
 
Right off the bat, Dread, you need to unclench. I asked an honest question about something I was curious about. It was not meant to be an accusation or a reprimand and if you somehow got the impression then, well, you're entirely reading something from what I said that I neither said nor implied.
 
Right off the bat, Dread, you need to unclench. I asked an honest question about something I was curious about. It was not meant to be an accusation or a reprimand and if you somehow got the impression then, well, you're entirely reading something from what I said that I neither said nor implied.

Very well.
 
I don't "rather" this comic be anything...I mean, not really. I get what it is and what its purpose is, and I'm not saying that anything needs to be changed. I just think that this comic is basically "Ultimates" in tone and message: heavy-handed socio-political arbitrariness delivered with all the nuance and subtlety of a Michael Moore film...which is to say, not a lot. Only substantial difference is that it's set in the 616 universe, and I didn't like it then so I'm not liable to like it now. I'd practically compare it to the Thunderbolts, although I'm sorta beginning to think that Ellis is attempting to pull a Goddamn Batman with that stunt via "almost-parody" in the deliverance of the subject matter.

Wasn't it you, Dread, who often lamented the fact that most Marvel heroes are anti-heroes now and "grim and gritty" was the unfortunate trend that had to be adhered to? What makes this comic so different from that archetype? If you (all you guys in general) like that sort of thing, well, more power to you and I'm glad you found a book that fits your style; but if you don't, then why make an exception for this particular instance? Is it less stated than how we normally see "grim and gritty" anti-heroics nowadays? Is it just the quality in which the archetype is portrayed? Is it Dan Slott?

Unfortunately, the new "registered" MU is basically grim and gritty all the time. I've always been against the registration and the Initiative plays a very important part of what I hoped would be depicted in regards to these new superhumans discovering and training their powers. The great thing is that it shows a balance. There are characters that are still intrinsically idealistic even when getting beat down by the system and there are those that flourish under this kind of regimented training. Then there are the mentors that work within the system to make the recruits into "old school" heroes as opposed to "new MU age" supersoldiers. They are NOT the Ultimates, forgive me for my bluntness but anyone who sees them as the same is woefully ignorant or what they're talking about.

I came into this series hoping that Slott would somehow manage to put a spin on the registration that I would somehow not hate as much, but that I would still hate, and have been completely surprised by what is being done here. He's not making the SHRA more palatable, he's showing that even under a "regime" there are still (what some of us would call) true heroes. There's much more to this comic than "superhero boot camp" or "Ultimate University" and anyone who sees it as just those should give the comic a chance and find out for themselves how wrong they are.

Like I said before, the current MU atmosphere doesn't lend itself to "happy go lucky" (look at Spidey). The oppressiveness in titles like New Warriors and New Avengers practically makes them grimmer and grittier than Mighty Avengers just because of what side they're on. Does that make them anti-heroes? I don't know. A part of me says 'yes' because of the tactics they have to employ just to operate, while another part says 'no' because they're going against the odds. It's a complicated issue.
 
War World Hulk: X-Men #3 7/10-Just Hulk smashing and the Juggernauts return, nothing all that special but still decent
 

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