Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[Doctor Jones]

This is bad. The storytelling is still there, hence why it took off but this taints it and recontextualizes it some. Whedon is more like Angel after he slept with Buffy.

Seriously, what a piece of ****.

The next time he gets on his high horse on Twitter he better rethink how he sees himself as a feminist. But just in general. He's got a loooong hill to climb. And I'm doubtful he'll ever reach it given he must focus on saving the DCEU.

This is really painful for me because I looked up to this guy. But I'm glad this is out to show us he's human and you can't put anyone on a pedestal. I'm glad she's doing better.

 

[Sithborg]

Frankly, ever after hearing about how the Charisma Carpenter situation went down, I didn't buy his feminist schtick.

 

[Doctor Jones]

What happened there? Don't think I heard that.

 

[Sithborg]

What happened there? Don't think I heard that.

She got fired because she got pregnant. And it clearly wasn't friendly, because it took a lot of convincing to get her back for the 100th episode.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I'm sorry but just because he cheated on his wife does not take away his accomplishments in feminism. The man is still and will always be my biggest muse in regards to writing strong female characters. He is human so he makes mistakes big freakin whoop.

 

[jaymes_e06]

She got fired because she got pregnant. And it clearly wasn't friendly, because it took a lot of convincing to get her back for the 100th episode.

No she didn't tell anyone she got pregnant until it was to late to write around it.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I thought the Hype would be on fire today with the news.

 

[Sawyer]

On a personal level, it is s***ty on his part and I feel bad for his ex, but... let's not milk this. This isn't some Woody Allen/Roman Polanski stuff. He's a dick, not a criminal. So, as far as taint goes, it might be there, but it's not overwhelming for me.

 

[flickchick85]

On a personal level, it is s***ty on his part and I feel bad for his ex, but... let's not milk this. This isn't some Woody Allen/Roman Polanski stuff. He's a dick, not a criminal. So, as far as taint goes, it might be there, but it's not overwhelming for me.

Agreed. I was surprised to see people making such a big deal of it, tbh. I mean, it's obviously a big deal for their family, but that's not my business. People cheat. Often. And it sucks. But it's not criminal activity, just crappy behavior. And Joss isn't new to crappy behavior, so...ok? He's a jerk. Shocking revelation. He's also a jerk who's produced damned impressive work over the years with some fantastic female heroes. *shrug*

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't get why some are framing it as he simply cheated. That isn't what I got out of it at all. It was that he was using his position to sleep with women. Which is the exact opposite of the narrative he has painted. It also makes all the questionable decisions he made over the years that were defended by, "but he isn't like that" obviously different. Like you know, killing off an actress because she dare get pregnant.

 

[Doctor Jones]

On a personal level, it is s***ty on his part and I feel bad for his ex, but... let's not milk this. This isn't some Woody Allen/Roman Polanski stuff. He's a dick, not a criminal. So, as far as taint goes, it might be there, but it's not overwhelming for me.

I think where it got me is how he affected her and the way he went about it. Multiple times as well. He's been stringing her along for years until recently and used the marriage as a shield while lying to her. It gave her a form of PTSD. He emotionally abused her. None of this is a crime but it shows bad character. A character that has been so outspoken about feminism. I get it's private but he uses the public nature to compensate for it. Thats where it gets in the blurry area of the person and their art, which he owns and he used that to justify his behavior. That's where it crosses a line beside the harm element. Whedon is different than most men who cheat, and he kind of has himself to thank for that.

He's not irredeemable but he can't keep being rewarded for being a feminist when he does stuff like this. The man is human, he can cheat like any other man, but he's a bad example of a feminist.

At most, he's a big, hypocritical *******. But it's hard to support a Batgirl movie when the guy who was chosen based on his strong female characters that come from a respect for women didn't have respect for the woman he was married to. Symbolically, it's not right.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, the Complex PTSD is the part where things change my view. I need to read a bit more about it before a final verdict, but it can possibly change things, imo. The cheating doesn't, but it does thrust into the spotlight his hypocrisy.

 

[flickchick85]

For the record, I'm not denying he's a bad feminist. Obviously, he's a terrible feminist. I'm just saying that doesn't suddenly apply to his characters now too. Buffy is a legit feminist icon, regardless of how shady her creator is. Most of his female characters HAVE been strong heroes and anti-heroes (with a couple exceptions). This revelation doesn't make me think he'll suddenly forget how to write characters like that for Batgirl. He was presumably chosen for that gig because of his ability to do just that, NOT because of who he is personally. No Hollywood suit is gonna care whether a writer's talent for writing female characters comes from some deep-seated respect for women or not - they just care what ends up on the page/screen.

He's a hypocrite and a ****ty husband. So was Bill Clinton, and that hasn't stopped me from thinking him a good president (including for feminist issues) when all was said and done, either. Sometimes a person's professional performance bears little resemblance to who they are on a personal level, for whatever reason.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The question becomes why is Buffy such a feminist icon, and a lot of that has to do with the portrayal of Joss. He was built up just as much as the character, and the credit went all to him, no matter who else was around. He got so many passes on so many things because of that. **** that is more then a bit questionable.

And if we are getting honest, I still love Buffy, Angel and Firefly. But that stuff is dated in those terms. Like really dated. Just like his take on Black Widow in comparison to those who handled the character in TWS and Civil War. There is a certain Nolan who has had two shows with female characters that scissor kick Joss' characters in those regards.

 

[Primal Slayer]

While it doesn't make love Buffy/Angel any less it does suck that he's basically been a sheep in wolf clothing since he waa someone i grew up looking up to.

 

[flickchick85]

The question becomes why is Buffy such a feminist icon, and a lot of that has to do with the portrayal of Joss. He was built up just as much as the character, and the credit went all to him, no matter who else was around. He got so many passes on so many things because of that. **** that is more then a bit questionable.

And if we are getting honest, I still love Buffy, Angel and Firefly. But that stuff is dated in those terms. Like really dated. Just like his take on Black Widow in comparison to those who handled the character in TWS and Civil War. There is a certain Nolan who has had two shows with female characters that scissor kick Joss' characters in those regards.

Well I can only speak for myself, but I only loved Buffy for Buffy, not Joss. And that continues today. Sure there are dated elements of course, but I actually appreciate ALL of those shows more these days than I did when I first saw them, so I guess they're aging better for me. But to each their own.

 

[Sithborg]

****** people can make great content. See, the Cosby Show.

 

[Doctor Jones]

For the record, I'm not denying he's a bad feminist. Obviously, he's a terrible feminist. I'm just saying that doesn't suddenly apply to his characters now too. Buffy is a legit feminist icon, regardless of how shady her creator is. Most of his female characters HAVE been strong heroes and anti-heroes (with a couple exceptions). This revelation doesn't make me think he'll suddenly forget how to write characters like that for Batgirl. He was presumably chosen for that gig because of his ability to do just that, NOT because of who he is personally. No Hollywood suit is gonna care whether a writer's talent for writing female characters comes from some deep-seated respect for women or not - they just care what ends up on the page/screen.

He's a hypocrite and a ****ty husband. So was Bill Clinton, and that hasn't stopped me from thinking him a good president (including for feminist issues) when all was said and done, either. Sometimes a person's professional performance bears little resemblance to who they are on a personal level, for whatever reason.

That's the thing, who is personally factors into his writing. In a show that was a major breakthrough for modern feminism, it's weird the guy who was behind it was doing the opposite. He still believes in the ideas, but he's terrible at practicing them. I guess his shows were a way to make up for what he couldn't do in real life, but being a feminist is being a good person, and this is where the argument of how much the art represents the person comes in. I'd say in this case it's big because he himself made it that way while doing these terrible things.

Buffy isn't ruined for me and I still love the characters and storytelling, but part of the reason I loved it was because a person gave the effort to instill these ideas into a show. That comes from the person.

 

[dark_b]

Joss Whedon fan site Whedonesque shuts down after 15 years
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/21/16179080/joss-whedon-fan-site-whedonesque-shut-down

 

[Sithborg]

I've seen enough of Whedon to easily believe that he is that "nice guy nerd" who ends up being a rat bastard enough to his wife to give them Complex PSTD.

 

[O'Haire]

This won't change my opinion on his work. I've loved damn near everything he's done. Mainly his TV shows. I don't care about his personal life, since he's always seemed like a bit of a prick to me.

 

[Jordacar]

I think it's also worth considering all the other creators (Tim Minear, Jane Espenson, Marti Noxon, Jed & Mo, etc.) Joss worked with along the way that made invaluable contributions to the quality of his overall brand and definitely don't get enough credit for it.

 

[Havok83]

She got fired because she got pregnant. And it clearly wasn't friendly, because it took a lot of convincing to get her back for the 100th episode.

It wasn't bc she got pregnant but rather she waited too late to tell them about her pregnancy

 

[Primal Slayer]

She still got fired because she was pregnant and then didn't even know about it until last minute. Apparently she suffered a miscarriage during s3 which would explain why sge waited later to tell everyone.

 

[Donner]

Ah fack. When I read that about Joss, it was just super disappointing. I don't like thinking the worst of people, especially someone who seemed like a "one of us" type of guy - a "nerd" and a champion of female characters, who went on Twitter to shut down haters. Buffy has always been so iconic for me and Joss being a ****tard doesn't change that, but it makes me wonder where his writing for female characters comes from, as it obviously can't be from his respect of women.

It would be like a Nazi writing strong and admirable Jewish characters. Is it possible?