Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[Mad Ones]

Buffy is one of my favourite shows of all time and not much can change that. I love it for the team of actors and writers on the show. Joss was key, but this news doesn't erase all the hard good work that made the show so beloved and made Buffy an icon.

The feminism in the show is absolutely outdated. We know that there are many men who can write great female characters, but they don't leverage their role as a feminist to sleep with women. I have no doubt that Joss is a scumbag, the narrative of himself in relation to the show is fictional, so maybe its time to shift the success of his shows away from him solely and toward the team of talented people who made them work.

 

[Sithborg]

Ah fack. When I read that about Joss, it was just super disappointing. I don't like thinking the worst of people, especially someone who seemed like a "one of us" type of guy - a "nerd" and a champion of female characters, who went on Twitter to shut down haters. Buffy has always been so iconic for me and Joss being a ****tard doesn't change that, but it makes me wonder where his writing for female characters comes from, as it obviously can't be from his respect of women.

It would be like a Nazi writing strong and admirable Jewish characters. Is it possible?

Many are blind to their own hypocrisy.

And he is still one of us. He very much is a nerd. But, a nerd that has been scarred by his life as a nerd. And frankly, it shows in a lot of his writing.

Hopefully, this will get him off of his high horse to other filmmakers.

 

[Havok83]

She still got fired because she was pregnant and then didn't even know about it until last minute. Apparently she suffered a miscarriage during s3 which would explain why sge waited later to tell everyone.

again it wasnt bc she got pregnant. Had she informed them about the pregnancy early on, they wouldnt have forced to scramble do last minute rewrites and completely change the course of season 4. He didnt get proper notice and was upset about that, not bc she was having a baby but its more sensational and juicy to think so

 

[Primal Slayer]

Her not telling them at a drop of a hat did not warrant a firing. She didn't even know she was fired until she read it in the press. Plus when she came back for the 100th episode she came back with the stipulation that she wouldn't be killed off which they agreed to but then they went behind her back and killed Cordelia off even after she agreed to return.

Her having a baby plays into it because it is a factor that resulted in her being fired. Cordelia being pregnant wasn't in the storyline at all so the storyline would've had to be changed regardless or they could've just stuck a pillow infront of her and went on with it which they chose not to do.

 

[Sithborg]

Her not telling them at a drop of a hat did not warrant a firing. She didn't even know she was fired until she read it in the press. Plus when she came back for the 100th episode she came back with the stipulation that she wouldn't be killed off which they agreed to but then they went behind her back and killed Cordelia off even after she agreed to return.

Her having a baby plays into it because it is a factor that resulted in her being fired. Cordelia being pregnant wasn't in the storyline at all so the storyline would've had to be changed regardless or they could've just stuck a pillow infront of her and went on with it which they chose not to do.

I thought she wouldn't come back until she saw the script.

Also, it really isn't a good reason to fire her.

 

[Primal Slayer]

They wouldn't write a script with her if they couldn't get her. But they talked about it, agreed on the storyline and blindsided her again. She ended up liking what they did but it wasn't what she wanted or agreed to.



starts at about the 5:30mark

 

[Havok83]

Her not telling them at a drop of a hat did not warrant a firing. She didn't even know she was fired until she read it in the press. Plus when she came back for the 100th episode she came back with the stipulation that she wouldn't be killed off which they agreed to but then they went behind her back and killed Cordelia off even after she agreed to return.

Her having a baby plays into it because it is a factor that resulted in her being fired. Cordelia being pregnant wasn't in the storyline at all so the storyline would've had to be changed regardless or they could've just stuck a pillow infront of her and went on with it which they chose not to do.

I dont agree with it, especially since she played my favorite on the show, but she could have handled it better and isnt completely absolved for how things turned out. Season 4 started off a strong but it was a hot mess towards the end which was evident bc of the rewrites. I dont think Whedon has ever revealed what his original plans were but whatever they were, Cordelia's pregnancy was written in as a way to write Charisma out bc she coudlnt be used the way he had planned. Simply having he rin scenes with a big pillow in front of her isnt sufficient for an action series like Angel

As for Cordy being killed off...the show ended up getting cancelled a week after that episode aired, so ultimately it didnt matter

 

[SV Fan]

I really wouldn't say Buffy was bad in this regard(maybe the girl who became a witch might fit in this category) but I always felt Whedon's went overboard having female characters be delicate special snowflakes

 

[jaymes_e06]

Do people remember who created Wonder Woman the first superheroine? Why are people saying because he's a flawed human he can't be a feminist when that is what feminism is all about? That was what his writing on the subject was all about.

He didn't rape these women. He did a dick move but he doesn't have to be perfect to be a feminist. Many female-driven media try to Mary Sue there characters to make them this way too. That's the problem with feminism these days they try to say "women are better" vs. "Women are equal" so it defeats the purpose. It's sad that anyone who is a feminists advocate who shows human vulnerability and imperfections instantly gets shunned or persecuted or labeled unfit to have that title.

 

[Primal Slayer]

No one expects Joss to be perfect but to me there is a difference between cheating once or twice and learning from your mistakes then cheating all throughout your marriage and trying to use your new found power as an excuse while drivinf your wife to a ptsd situation.

As far as WM,what shady things did he do? Only thing i am aware of is his "2nd " wife that he shared with his wife.

 

[Donner]

Yeah, I'm the same way. Cheating is one thing. Giving your wife PTSD is something else.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Ah fack. When I read that about Joss, it was just super disappointing. I don't like thinking the worst of people, especially someone who seemed like a "one of us" type of guy - a "nerd" and a champion of female characters, who went on Twitter to shut down haters. Buffy has always been so iconic for me and Joss being a ****tard doesn't change that, but it makes me wonder where his writing for female characters comes from, as it obviously can't be from his respect of women.

It would be like a Nazi writing strong and admirable Jewish characters. Is it possible?

Honestly, I think it was originally. This show couldn't have taken off and did what it did without there being something to it, which is him. Whedon's problem is that he, the guy who created his own show to instill those values flew in the face of all those same things he championed. It just sounds like an ego thing that got to his head a lot. In his warped mind that exists on another plain of reality because he's so woke, he's pretty much past help. He's not a guy who I see as getting better. He's been silent on twitter the past few days, (Thank God, even before this Whedon needed to shut the **** up) but I doubt it's because he's doing it because he's ashamed. A man who goes on for this long and being aware of what he is and buys into his own image doesn't just turn around like a regular person.

The man himself is a scumbag. Don't lecture about how Reagan was a vile **** while you were doing vile things yourself. At least Reagan never cheated on his wife multiple times.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Yeah, I'm the same way. Cheating is one thing. Giving your wife PTSD is something else.

That's the most over dramatic part of the entire incident. Does she liken her "PTSD" to soldiers who went to war for their countries? It seemed a bit too ott to be taken seriously to me.

Who's to say that his actions weren't just like any other man just her perception that is making it a bigger deal. I'm not saying what he did was right but he even wrote Buffy herself with a dark side (infact most if not all his characters have this trait) so it doesn't surprise me he has one of his own. Is it "right"? No. Is it human? Yes.

 

[jaymes_e06]

No one expects Joss to be perfect but to me there is a difference between cheating once or twice and learning from your mistakes then cheating all throughout your marriage and trying to use your new found power as an excuse while drivinf your wife to a ptsd situation.

As far as WM,what shady things did he do? Only thing i am aware of is his "2nd " wife that he shared with his wife.

Unfortunately many men do this. It is very common for some men to have a sexual addiction. In his role as friendly neighborhood male feminist it had to be hard to come to terms with that duality. If he felt that his image needed his wife to convey his public persona I can imagine why he wanted to keep it all secret.


You know he had an affair with her before they integrated her into their relationship right? He also dominated women is that what a "proper feminist leader" should be doing?

 

[Matt]

That's the most over dramatic part of the entire incident. Does she liken her "PTSD" to soldiers who went to war for their countries? It seemed a bit too ott to be taken seriously to me.

Who's to say that his actions weren't just like any other man just her perception that is making it a bigger deal. I'm not saying what he did was right but he even wrote Buffy herself with a dark side (infact most if not all his characters have this trait) so it doesn't surprise me he has one of his own. Is it "right"? No. Is it human? Yes.

Unfortunately many men do this. It is very common for some men to have a sexual addiction. In his role as friendly neighborhood male feminist it had to be hard to come to terms with that duality. If he felt that his image needed his wife to convey his public persona I can imagine why he wanted to keep it all secret.


You know he had an affair with her before they integrated her into their relationship right? He also dominated women is that what a "proper feminist leader" should be doing?

1) So Whedon is a victim now? Please.

2) Your take on PTSD is laughably shallow. People who are in car accidents suffer from PTSD. A breakup can cause PTSD. People who endure abuse, physical or emotional, suffer from PTSD. Someone can suffer from PTSD from the loss of a pet. Its not "war disease." Its post-traumatic stress disorder. Anything that causes traumatic stress can cause PTSD. What causes traumatic stress differs from person to person. But to discredit someone's diagnosis of PTSD because she "didn't go to war" is what is truly "ott." Its over-the-top ignorance.

 

[Donner]

I'm sure if Joss' wife was Gal Gadot, jaymes_e06 would have a very different opinion.

 

[Sithborg]

That's the most over dramatic part of the entire incident. Does she liken her "PTSD" to soldiers who went to war for their countries? It seemed a bit too ott to be taken seriously to me.

It was a simple "I was diagnosed with Complex PSTD". She didn't go into details beyond mentioning that she was doing better know. From what I gathered, she heavily implied emotional abuse. Which, given how much of a "nice guy" vibe Whedon has given off, and his clear issues with relationships in his writing, it really would not shock me if he was emotionally abusive.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Nick Brendon revealed that it was David Boreanaz who blocked him from being part of the photoshoot/group commentary. He doesn't know Davids reasoning though.

 

[DA_Champion]

Some thoughts:

1) We should collectively lose the equivalence between Buffy and Whedon. I loved Buffy myself, and still love it, and I know that Whedon is the most important contributor... but aside from his skills as a writer-director, he also clearly has skills hiring people. He hired some very good people to work on the Buffyverse such as Minear, Espenson, Noxon, etc. They contributed to Buffy being great as well.

The same applies to other Whedon shows.

All of this is independent of how he is to women personally.

2) There's an epidemic of men who are awful to women personally but who are feminists in public. We're discussing Joss Whedon now, but we also know of Devin Faraci in the past year, he was definitely one of the loudest feminists on the internet, has a history of ... you can look it up. In my own field, a man who was on the shortlist for a Nobel prize, who apparently went to women's marches, recently lost his career because he sexually assaulted young female scientists. Separately, all the time I see on FB people brag about what feminists, woke, tolerant, pro-LGBQTI, progressive people they are while at the same time they are awful people in real life, full of bigotry and darkness.

I think that part of the issue is that feminism and progressivism in general are cool. People want to believe that they're nice, so they strive to have that image, both in terms of how others see them, and in terms of their own self-image.

 

[Havok83]

Nick Brendon revealed that it was David Boreanaz who blocked him from being part of the photoshoot/group commentary. He doesn't know Davids reasoning though.

time stamp? That video is almost 20 minutes long

 

[Primal Slayer]

time stamp? That video is almost 20 minutes long

You don't want to listen to the whole thing!?!?! But it's around the 17min mark.

 

[Havok83]

You don't want to listen to the whole thing!?!?! But it's around the 17min mark.

but thanks!

 

[ComicChick]

i started watching this show last night. i've finished 5 episodes so far. episode 4 is the worst i've seen yet but other than that i'm enjoying the show

 

[Primal Slayer]

As in your first time watching? I am envious.

 

[flickchick85]

i started watching this show last night. i've finished 5 episodes so far. episode 4 is the worst i've seen yet but other than that i'm enjoying the show

Well you're doing better than I did at that point. I was kinda hating the show for most of the first season, and was basically forced by my friends to continue, lol. "Angel" (episode 7) was the first one to even keep my interest. I enjoy the season more on re-watches though because it's fun to see how these characters were before all the epic **** that happens to them, haha. The most interesting character to watch in this 1st season to me now is actually [blackout]Darla[/blackout]. Talk about not judging a character on first impressions, lol.