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Still my favorite season of the Buffyverse.
Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3
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I've been rewatching Angel, and did not realize that this thread would be active.
I'm glad it is, because the Buffyverse discussion on other forums is filled with Spike/Spuffy fans, and its actually making me like Spike less.
I think "You're Welcome" was a great episode, both a nice farewell to Cordelia, and a fitting way to celebrate 100 Episodes. "A Hole In The World" is successfully heartbreaking, and "Power Play" was a great setup for the great finale.
To me, the Wolfram and Hart stuff just reinforced what the show stands for, knocking down Angel before building him back up again.
I'm glad it is, because the Buffyverse discussion on other forums is filled with Spike/Spuffy fans, and its actually making me like Spike less.
I think "You're Welcome" was a great episode, both a nice farewell to Cordelia, and a fitting way to celebrate 100 Episodes. "A Hole In The World" is successfully heartbreaking, and "Power Play" was a great setup for the great finale.
To me, the Wolfram and Hart stuff just reinforced what the show stands for, knocking down Angel before building him back up again.
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S5 of Angel is probably my 2nd-favorite season of the Buffyverse, behind S5 of Buffy. I just love me some Season 5's I guess, lol.
Shinobi Shaw
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I swear three Buffyverse characters that were shoved down our throats were Spike, Andrew and Fred (well 4 if you count Illyria). That’s another reason why I wasn’t too fond of Angel S5, I never really cared for Fred and I was really over her when they killed off Cordy.
‘A Whole in The World’ was a good dramatic episode though, I’ll give you that. “Wesley why can’t I stay??” was heartbreaking.
Wish we got more Harmony-centric episodes that season.
Mani-Man
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Yeah.
I do admit im one of those that could speak about Spuffy and Spike for hours...but it often feels like the show has nothing else outside of Buffy/Spike/Angel and that shipper thing.
Which is just not true, the show has so much more to offer than that.
Not that it means people dont like the show outside of this, but its just that the big chunk of discussions is about that, which is sad because that world, the characters has a lot to talk about.
Long and boring post incoming:
Wesleys deaths scene was something else. It was great on many levels. It was so sad and emotional, and the fact that it wasn't really Fred holding him in his final moments made it even more tragic. It was a nice touch having him, in a way, become what he originally wanted to be. By "betraying" Angel and going after the most powerful demon in the Circle of the Black Thorn, he became the rogue demon hunter that he wanted to be back in season one.
It was hard to avoid the conclusion that Illyria was also revealing her own feeling to him while she held him in his final moments. Illyria was an interesting character. The season was about power corrupting people and making them more ruthless, cold, ambitious and selfish e.t.c. With Illyria, we got the opposite of that. We got a cold, ruthless character who was once the most powerful creature who only cared about herself and her own ambitions, who then lost that power and started to develop feelings for other people and was willing to help. She also had to learn to adapt and work with others. I imagine they were originally planning to have her develop those feeling more slowly, but with the show being cancelled, they had to expedite things.
With Wesley bringing out the best in Illyria, bringing out her most gallant, valiant qualities, helping her through difficult times and ultimately molding her into someone who was willing to go back to check if Wesley was ok, had perhaps fallen in love with him, fight alongside Angel and experience grief as a result of his death, you could also say that he was finally fulfilling what was expected of him when he was a Watcher, which was another nice touch and callback to the early days of Wesley.
IMO, along with Angel, Marcus Hamilton is what Lindsey wanted to be. He was W&H's liason, and they had granted him a lot of power (he was physically stronger than Angel). He was considered extremely important by them and he was also the final battle for Angel on the show, which is also what Lindsey wanted, as he hated that it was Lorne that killed him).
Lindsey was very interesting character, IMO. It was interesting that his final act was killing bad guys and helping the heroes. Earlier on in a post in this thread I made a joke about Lindsey possibly being the devil, given how he tempted and corrupted Eve and took away her immortality. IMO, what the writers were really going for with that was to compare Lindsey with a snake. No matter what, he could not make up his mind about what side he wanted to be on, and would keep betraying both the good guys and bad guys. He had bad in him, but not enough to be a big bad, and he had good in him, but not enough to be a consistent hero. I remember Lorne complimenting him on his skills with swords after he killed the demons, my take from that was the writers wanted to say this is what Lindsey could have been, a hero fighting alongside Angel, if he were willing to try hard enough and make sacrifices. He hates Angel and is jealous of him, but he also admires him, which we see when he says Angel has "brass testes".
I remember in season 1, Holland Manners made a speech about how there are people who know their place in the world and make their own destinies by fighting for it (which describes Angel, Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Doyle and Cordelia) and those who just go with the crowd, which ultimately describes Lindsey. He would have kept going back and forth and never would have stuck to one side (which Lorne alluded to when he said he heard Lindsey sing and that he would never be the solution). He was someone who was insecure and always wanted to be part of soemthing bigger than him to make up for this. Because of this, he was a threat and had to be eliminated. He did not deserve to stand alongside Angel, Spike or Gunn (or Wesley, Doyle, Fred and Cordelia, if they had made it) in the final apocalyptic battle.
A scene that will always stand out to me and in many way defines the Angel/Lindsey relationship was at the end of season 1, where both Lindsey and Angel were staring at the city of LA at night. There was a lot of darkness, but some light because of the street-lights, which represents how there is mostly darkness in both characters lives, but some light. Lindsey was looking out at it and while doing so, was not looking too sure of himself. He was thinking intensely and was trying to make sense of things and figure out his place in the world. At the same time, Angel was looking at the same thing, but had a big, confident smile on his face. He knew his place in the world and was comfortable with it. But then, right before the end credits, Angel turned his head and looked concerned and unsure, suggesting that he did have some doubt, not as much as Lindsey did, but it was there.
A lot of season 5 had characters talk about being in "the middle" or "the grey". Angel did not want to be there, and neither did W&H. They wanted to be firmly on the good side or the bad side. In the end, it would seem Lindsey was in "the grey", or was at least closer to being there than most characters. He did a lot of harm, but he also helped people, including taking down the Back Thorn. Before Angel had him killed, his last act was killing members of the Black Thorn, so in a way, he died a hero. Because of this, you could say Angel gave him the best end he could have hoped for.
Wesleys deaths scene was something else. It was great on many levels. It was so sad and emotional, and the fact that it wasn't really Fred holding him in his final moments made it even more tragic. It was a nice touch having him, in a way, become what he originally wanted to be. By "betraying" Angel and going after the most powerful demon in the Circle of the Black Thorn, he became the rogue demon hunter that he wanted to be back in season one.
It was hard to avoid the conclusion that Illyria was also revealing her own feeling to him while she held him in his final moments. Illyria was an interesting character. The season was about power corrupting people and making them more ruthless, cold, ambitious and selfish e.t.c. With Illyria, we got the opposite of that. We got a cold, ruthless character who was once the most powerful creature who only cared about herself and her own ambitions, who then lost that power and started to develop feelings for other people and was willing to help. She also had to learn to adapt and work with others. I imagine they were originally planning to have her develop those feeling more slowly, but with the show being cancelled, they had to expedite things.
With Wesley bringing out the best in Illyria, bringing out her most gallant, valiant qualities, helping her through difficult times and ultimately molding her into someone who was willing to go back to check if Wesley was ok, had perhaps fallen in love with him, fight alongside Angel and experience grief as a result of his death, you could also say that he was finally fulfilling what was expected of him when he was a Watcher, which was another nice touch and callback to the early days of Wesley.
IMO, along with Angel, Marcus Hamilton is what Lindsey wanted to be. He was W&H's liason, and they had granted him a lot of power (he was physically stronger than Angel). He was considered extremely important by them and he was also the final battle for Angel on the show, which is also what Lindsey wanted, as he hated that it was Lorne that killed him).
Lindsey was very interesting character, IMO. It was interesting that his final act was killing bad guys and helping the heroes. Earlier on in a post in this thread I made a joke about Lindsey possibly being the devil, given how he tempted and corrupted Eve and took away her immortality. IMO, what the writers were really going for with that was to compare Lindsey with a snake. No matter what, he could not make up his mind about what side he wanted to be on, and would keep betraying both the good guys and bad guys. He had bad in him, but not enough to be a big bad, and he had good in him, but not enough to be a consistent hero. I remember Lorne complimenting him on his skills with swords after he killed the demons, my take from that was the writers wanted to say this is what Lindsey could have been, a hero fighting alongside Angel, if he were willing to try hard enough and make sacrifices. He hates Angel and is jealous of him, but he also admires him, which we see when he says Angel has "brass testes".
I remember in season 1, Holland Manners made a speech about how there are people who know their place in the world and make their own destinies by fighting for it (which describes Angel, Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Doyle and Cordelia) and those who just go with the crowd, which ultimately describes Lindsey. He would have kept going back and forth and never would have stuck to one side (which Lorne alluded to when he said he heard Lindsey sing and that he would never be the solution). He was someone who was insecure and always wanted to be part of soemthing bigger than him to make up for this. Because of this, he was a threat and had to be eliminated. He did not deserve to stand alongside Angel, Spike or Gunn (or Wesley, Doyle, Fred and Cordelia, if they had made it) in the final apocalyptic battle.
A scene that will always stand out to me and in many way defines the Angel/Lindsey relationship was at the end of season 1, where both Lindsey and Angel were staring at the city of LA at night. There was a lot of darkness, but some light because of the street-lights, which represents how there is mostly darkness in both characters lives, but some light. Lindsey was looking out at it and while doing so, was not looking too sure of himself. He was thinking intensely and was trying to make sense of things and figure out his place in the world. At the same time, Angel was looking at the same thing, but had a big, confident smile on his face. He knew his place in the world and was comfortable with it. But then, right before the end credits, Angel turned his head and looked concerned and unsure, suggesting that he did have some doubt, not as much as Lindsey did, but it was there.
A lot of season 5 had characters talk about being in "the middle" or "the grey". Angel did not want to be there, and neither did W&H. They wanted to be firmly on the good side or the bad side. In the end, it would seem Lindsey was in "the grey", or was at least closer to being there than most characters. He did a lot of harm, but he also helped people, including taking down the Back Thorn. Before Angel had him killed, his last act was killing members of the Black Thorn, so in a way, he died a hero. Because of this, you could say Angel gave him the best end he could have hoped for.
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WhoMani
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I'm one of the fans that feel Spike actually suited better on Angel than he ever did with Buffy and that his rivalry with Angel actually brought some spark to the character again. I need to do a rewatch of Angel but season 5 was amazing and its arguably better than the last two season of Buffy (I would say that its on par with Buffy S2/3).
Lindsay is a very interesting character. Lindsay has shown glimpes of feeling remorse and unlike Lilah or Holland he does seem to possess a conscience. But Lindsay's huge ego and his lust for power got in a way of him achieving some sort of redemption like Faith or Spike. Lindsay was given a chance to walk away from W&H in season 1 but he stayed because he will receive a promotion. Again in season 2 he decided to leave W&H and leave LA for good, he ended his petty feud with Angel. But a few years later he decided to return just because he heard that Angel was given a higher position at W&H and that his ego couldn't cope with the fact that the Senior Partners simply gave Angel everything that Lindsey had worked so hard for. Lindsay actions throughout Angel suggest that he's a untrustworthy snake that will switch sides once he receives a better offer, that's what he will always be and Lorne seeemd to have confirm it with his remark of 'I've heard you sing' before shooting Lindsay.
I love the idea of Wolfram and Hart in that they will never truly be defeated, that somehow they will still continue to exist. Angel knows he has no chance in actually defeating the Senior Partners and that the final mision is suicidal but he still chooses to fight. Despite him losing most of his friends by the end of the series and signing away his only chance of being a human, Angel would rather sacrifice his life saving the helpless/fighting evil than being a puppet of W&H which proved that Angel is still the same hero that Cordelia thought him to be back in You're Welcome.
Lindsay is a very interesting character. Lindsay has shown glimpes of feeling remorse and unlike Lilah or Holland he does seem to possess a conscience. But Lindsay's huge ego and his lust for power got in a way of him achieving some sort of redemption like Faith or Spike. Lindsay was given a chance to walk away from W&H in season 1 but he stayed because he will receive a promotion. Again in season 2 he decided to leave W&H and leave LA for good, he ended his petty feud with Angel. But a few years later he decided to return just because he heard that Angel was given a higher position at W&H and that his ego couldn't cope with the fact that the Senior Partners simply gave Angel everything that Lindsey had worked so hard for. Lindsay actions throughout Angel suggest that he's a untrustworthy snake that will switch sides once he receives a better offer, that's what he will always be and Lorne seeemd to have confirm it with his remark of 'I've heard you sing' before shooting Lindsay.
I love the idea of Wolfram and Hart in that they will never truly be defeated, that somehow they will still continue to exist. Angel knows he has no chance in actually defeating the Senior Partners and that the final mision is suicidal but he still chooses to fight. Despite him losing most of his friends by the end of the series and signing away his only chance of being a human, Angel would rather sacrifice his life saving the helpless/fighting evil than being a puppet of W&H which proved that Angel is still the same hero that Cordelia thought him to be back in You're Welcome.
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I watched Mary Queen Of Scots recently and it explored similar theme to Angel season 5, regarding power and the effects it has on people. As Elizabeth grew older and her health faltered, she grew less cold (somewhat like Illyria), and as Mary gained more power, she became more ambitious and cold (somewhat like Angel). It also dealt with people trying to take power from others, (like Lindsey), and the difficulties in trusting others, who have their own agendas.
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Kev4000
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For me Season 6 is the best Season. The last 7-8 episodes, where all there lives, all the costructions and relationships, which builded all the series along, go to hell... turn, turn, turn...
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Nice! Definitely recommend it! Remember, S1 of Angel runs concurrent with S4 of Buffy, and they do directly crossover a few times in those seasons, so keeping it chronological is for sure the best way to watch.
Sparta*
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I cant wait! I found a website that combines all the buffy and angel episodes and gives the perfect viewing order to watch them in
I've always loved Buffy, seen them all a ton, but like I said I never got to see all the Angel episodes, only the later seasons, and never chronoligically with buffy, so im super excited to see all the Angel episodes and see how they line up with the Buffy episodes I know and love 
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I cant wait! I found a website that combines all the buffy and angel episodes and gives the perfect viewing order to watch them in
Care to share the link? I’m on Buffy season 3 and was wondering how I should proceed when I finish it. (If I ever do lol)
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Here's one, CC: The Watcher's Council: Buffy and Angel Episode Viewing Order
They highlight in red the eps that crossover with each other, too (gotta scroll down a lot to get to it though, for some reason).
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Thanks FC!
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Anytime!
Shinobi Shaw
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I’m still disappointed that Buffy never met Connor, but Willow and Faith did.
Even Angel(us) spoke to Dawn onscreen.
Even Angel(us) spoke to Dawn onscreen.
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It’s been a long time but while I’m out of town on work, I’ve been able to catch up on 3 episodes of Buffy S3 and only have 4 to go.
Faith went to the dark side. Darker side?
Gotta admit, Angel has me played too thinking they took his soul again. That whole part of the episode with capturing Buffy and all was pretty good. Faiths obviously jealous of Buffy and what she has. Friends family etc, but she’s had plenty of chances to kill Buffy or let her died and she hasn’t. So somewhere down there she must see her as some kind of friend or something right?
Also, the mayor becoming a father figure to her in a loose parallel to Giles and Buffy is nice. He’s a cornball but I kinda like him. He manipulates her so bad though, that she either realizes it and doesn’t care, or wants that kind of “love” and relationship so badly that she will take what she can get.
The doppelgänger episode was kinda meh to me. Didn’t really care about the alternate universe beforehand. But I thought it was funny how Vamp-willow ended up exactly where she left from and had the same exact result.
I can’t remember exactly but Anya told vamp- willow that she also wanted to get back to her universe too. I don’t remember Anya being from that world specifically. I thought it was a reality created with Cordelia made her wish that Buffy never came there. Maybe Anya just meant it was better than living in the “real” Sunnydale. Kinda naive of willow to just randomly start doing spells with Anya at school when they barely speak and she doesn’t really know her. And does anyone work at the school at night? Lol kids are in there all hours of the night.
Buffy got telepathic, got untelepathic. Stopped a potential shooting. I think I’ve seen a clip of that part of the episode before because I vividly remembered her running up the side of the school and flipping onto the roof. I liked the comedic sides of Buffy hearing everyone’s thoughts and whatnot but I kinda wish the other side, the pain, the overwhelming thoughts, the insanity, I kinda wish they showed that more. They said it could’ve been a weapon at her disposal, I was kinda hoping they would show how it was messing her up, like in training or fighting a demon or something and she couldn’t focus because of all the thoughts she couldn’t block out. The cafeteria scene was a good example though.
Also I kinda like how they hint more at Buffy’s slight bitterness of her friends going out and having lives and doing things and she’s missing out on these experiences because of patrolling and whatnot. She’s still a teenage girl in high school at heart and she’s missing out on so much because of her burden of being the Slayer and I like that they don’t let you forget that.
Faith went to the dark side. Darker side?
Gotta admit, Angel has me played too thinking they took his soul again. That whole part of the episode with capturing Buffy and all was pretty good. Faiths obviously jealous of Buffy and what she has. Friends family etc, but she’s had plenty of chances to kill Buffy or let her died and she hasn’t. So somewhere down there she must see her as some kind of friend or something right?
Also, the mayor becoming a father figure to her in a loose parallel to Giles and Buffy is nice. He’s a cornball but I kinda like him. He manipulates her so bad though, that she either realizes it and doesn’t care, or wants that kind of “love” and relationship so badly that she will take what she can get.
The doppelgänger episode was kinda meh to me. Didn’t really care about the alternate universe beforehand. But I thought it was funny how Vamp-willow ended up exactly where she left from and had the same exact result.
I can’t remember exactly but Anya told vamp- willow that she also wanted to get back to her universe too. I don’t remember Anya being from that world specifically. I thought it was a reality created with Cordelia made her wish that Buffy never came there. Maybe Anya just meant it was better than living in the “real” Sunnydale. Kinda naive of willow to just randomly start doing spells with Anya at school when they barely speak and she doesn’t really know her. And does anyone work at the school at night? Lol kids are in there all hours of the night.
Buffy got telepathic, got untelepathic. Stopped a potential shooting. I think I’ve seen a clip of that part of the episode before because I vividly remembered her running up the side of the school and flipping onto the roof. I liked the comedic sides of Buffy hearing everyone’s thoughts and whatnot but I kinda wish the other side, the pain, the overwhelming thoughts, the insanity, I kinda wish they showed that more. They said it could’ve been a weapon at her disposal, I was kinda hoping they would show how it was messing her up, like in training or fighting a demon or something and she couldn’t focus because of all the thoughts she couldn’t block out. The cafeteria scene was a good example though.
Also I kinda like how they hint more at Buffy’s slight bitterness of her friends going out and having lives and doing things and she’s missing out on these experiences because of patrolling and whatnot. She’s still a teenage girl in high school at heart and she’s missing out on so much because of her burden of being the Slayer and I like that they don’t let you forget that.
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Also, I want to share that I watched an episode tonight in the gym while I rode the elliptical bike 8 miles so that’s how I’ve been squeezing my episodes in.
And I’ll correct all the typos later (maybe). My phone autocorrected me a lot and I see the changes but am too tired right now lol.
4 more episodes in season 3 and I hope to have that done before I leave Charleston next week.
I wrote better summaries and thoughts in here than I do in my poor movie thread. Lol I should just nuke that.
And I’ll correct all the typos later (maybe). My phone autocorrected me a lot and I see the changes but am too tired right now lol.
4 more episodes in season 3 and I hope to have that done before I leave Charleston next week.
I wrote better summaries and thoughts in here than I do in my poor movie thread. Lol I should just nuke that.
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Been a while since I watched that ep, but Anya's a vengeance demon (who lost her power thanks to the Scoobies), so she would've preferred the reality where there was no Buffy and demons had the run of the place. She wasn't from that reality, it was just better because she still had her powers.
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That’s what I thought. Maybe it just caught me wrong in the way she worded it or phrased it. I was probably thinking too hard.
Also thinking too hard, how come no one at school who was at the bronze that night thought it was weird when two willows were there? Vampires just showed up, at least one person was killed. I guess the teens in sunnydale just don’t care anymore lol. They’ve seen it all.
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Don't nuke the movie thread, just post more movies!
The people of Sunnydale in general turn a blind eye to A LOT, to a comical degree, and this is the season where they actually start to acknowledge that they live in willful ignorance, lol.
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Two more episodes in tonight. And 7.5 miles on the bike.
The episode with the box was pretty good. Faiths getting way too comfortable with killing. Seems like she still can’t get herself to completely kill the gang since she saves Wesley from the spider thing. Lost her new toy though.
Wes was especially pompous this episode. Does he even work at the school? Lol I can’t remember.
And it’s funny how I brought up how people are always in the school at night and Snyder just happened to show up with some cops in tow.
I feel like SMG has been really strong the last few episodes. I’ve liked the latter half of this season a lot. Probably more than the rest combined. Since the dp where she was turned powerless I feel like she’s kinda stepped it up a notch. I regret having to put it off so long.
@flickchick85 maybe I should just make it a CC watches stuff thread and copy all my running commentaries from this thread over. Lol.
I’m in the Prom episode now and it was nice to see Joyce dialogue with Angel. The big elephant in the room has been building and now that Angel has said he’s breaking up with her, it adds even more drama. Not only did he do it right before Prom, but they’re about to take on their biggest bad and may not even survive.
And now we know why Cordelia is at the dress shop. She works there because they lost everything. She has no money, can’t even afford a dress, let alone tuition. She got into some very prestigious schools too. They play her as very dumb sometimes, maybe vapid is the better word, but she’s obviously intelligent enough to get into those great schools. Her lashing out at Buffy last episode about how Buffy is stuck and can’t go anywhere was totally out of pain, but it sucked and was just another stake into the heart (see what I did there?
) to Buffy because she knows her destiny and what she wants to do won’t really happen. She’s going to have to sacrifice so much.
The episode with the box was pretty good. Faiths getting way too comfortable with killing. Seems like she still can’t get herself to completely kill the gang since she saves Wesley from the spider thing. Lost her new toy though.
Wes was especially pompous this episode. Does he even work at the school? Lol I can’t remember.
And it’s funny how I brought up how people are always in the school at night and Snyder just happened to show up with some cops in tow.
I feel like SMG has been really strong the last few episodes. I’ve liked the latter half of this season a lot. Probably more than the rest combined. Since the dp where she was turned powerless I feel like she’s kinda stepped it up a notch. I regret having to put it off so long.
@flickchick85 maybe I should just make it a CC watches stuff thread and copy all my running commentaries from this thread over. Lol.
I’m in the Prom episode now and it was nice to see Joyce dialogue with Angel. The big elephant in the room has been building and now that Angel has said he’s breaking up with her, it adds even more drama. Not only did he do it right before Prom, but they’re about to take on their biggest bad and may not even survive.
And now we know why Cordelia is at the dress shop. She works there because they lost everything. She has no money, can’t even afford a dress, let alone tuition. She got into some very prestigious schools too. They play her as very dumb sometimes, maybe vapid is the better word, but she’s obviously intelligent enough to get into those great schools. Her lashing out at Buffy last episode about how Buffy is stuck and can’t go anywhere was totally out of pain, but it sucked and was just another stake into the heart (see what I did there?
) to Buffy because she knows her destiny and what she wants to do won’t really happen. She’s going to have to sacrifice so much.
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Yeah this season's pretty unanimously considered one of the best. It just gets better and better as it goes along. Only season I'd rank above it is S5.
That could work!
I keep forgetting you've seen Angel, so you know how much more fleshed out a character Cordelia becomes over time. But I think this season - her last on Buffy - did a nice job of setting her up for all that growth in that series.And now we know why Cordelia is at the dress shop. She works there because they lost everything. She has no money, can’t even afford a dress, let alone tuition. She got into some very prestigious schools too. They play her as very dumb sometimes, maybe vapid is the better word, but she’s obviously intelligent enough to get into those great schools. Her lashing out at Buffy last episode about how Buffy is stuck and can’t go anywhere was totally out of pain, but it sucked and was just another stake into the heart (see what I did there?
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