Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[ComicChick]

I finally finished season 1 of angel last night and the first episode of season 2. I watched season 1 of this and season 4 of buffy in “order”, and of the two seasons, I preferred angel as a whole.
Also last episode introduced The Host. I forgot how much I loved Lorne and how easy he made that character like ale right off the bat. I realized how much he reminded me of Lucifer (Tom Ellis) and I love that show. I wonder if this is a subconscious reason why lol.

Of all the songs in the world, gold star to whoever on the staff picked Mandy haha. I’m not a Fanilow of the Manilow but I enjoyed that. Also the first demon on stage looked like one of the ones the A-Team released from the underground fighting ring. The pregnant woman Angel championed looked real familiar but I can’t place her. W&H taking Cordelia and Wes away from Angel was great play. It was nice to see him go visit Faith. Her episodes across both shows are some of my favorites of the two seasons.

Gunn’s been a great addition since he showed up and I kinda always hated how Angel and Kate’s relationship with each other devolved so quickly and horribly. I don’t remember much of season two, but I know Kate doesn’t stick around much longer. With her introduction to this world and how close they were before, at least on a friends level, it seems like they flipped a 180 from when she stabbed angel to kill Jeremy Renner, to absolute hatred now. It feels like a lost conversation is missing between them somewhere.

 

[flickchick85]

S4 of Buffy was definitely not the best, but I just really didn't care for S1 of Angel at all. S2 was where it got good for me.

Weirdly though, I liked that they took his relationship with Kate in a TOTALLY different direction than one would expect. I think it made sense for someone to completely turn on Angel upon learning the truth about him and what he'd done, and considering how discovering the whole supernatural world existing right under her nose pretty much marks the beginning of Kate's life being blown to smithereens...her reaction and subsequent resentment of it feels natural to me.

 

[ComicChick]

Since I enjoyed angel season 1 more than Buffy season 4, I tried to

S4 of Buffy was definitely not the best, but I just really didn't care for S1 of Angel at all. S2 was where it got good for me.

Weirdly though, I liked that they took his relationship with Kate in a TOTALLY different direction than one would expect. I think it made sense for someone to completely turn on Angel upon learning the truth about him and what he'd done, and considering how discovering the whole supernatural world existing right under her nose pretty much marks the beginning of Kate's life being blown to smithereens...her reaction and subsequent resentment of it feels natural to me.

Angel season 1 is definitely flawed but of the two, it was more consistently enjoyable. Maybe I’m just partial because I met the characters here first.

I actually don’t mind where Kate and angel ended up, just some of how they got there didn’t feel complete to me. As much as Kate wanted evidence, truth, etc in her cases, I guess I assumed once she learned about the giant world around her that she would go to them and demand answers, knowledge etc. at one time she went and found some books, hence how she learned of Angelus, and the rest of the cops think her crazy and make jokes about her. I wanted to see more of that side of her. Maybe she was studying and doing everything she could to learn and prepare/protect herself and we never got to really see it. (Unless I’m not there yet!)
or maybe I just wanted to see the perspective of someone who was not okay with all of this. Who hated this supernatural stuff and what it did to her and her loved ones.

I definitely already feel a different energy going into season two. I know the show is campy at times, but it feels meatier. Cordelia and Wes feel like they’re more comfortable, stronger. I knew as soon as Angel cut off Lindsay’s hand that he wasn’t playing around anymore.

 

[kvz5]

Hot take there, Ms. Abrams.

 

[Mani-Man]

Oho this woman knows her stuff.

 

[henzINNIT]

ha that is great

 

[flickchick85]

It's ok, Stacey. I'll try not to hold this against you since you did us a great service recently.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Yeah Ms Abrams I’m willing to overlook that. Buffy and Angel are soulmates and deserve each other and can’t no one change my mind lol.

 

[flickchick85]

I actually ship Buffy/Independence/Happiness, but I suppose Angel was the least offensive of her love interests, lol.

 

[Filmfreak]

Well, Angel didn't attempt to rape her.

 

[flickchick85]

Well, Angel didn't attempt to rape her.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

And on top of all that, I never bought that Spike loved Buffy more than Drusilla. Dru had his heart and his sanity, I think they missed the boat not giving their relationship more development.

 

[Dr.]

Well, Angel didn't attempt to rape her.

But he did attempt to kill her. So call it even.

 

[TheFuture]

And on top of all that, I never bought that Spike loved Buffy more than Drusilla. Dru had his heart and his sanity, I think they missed the boat not giving their relationship more development.

Hot take but I don't think Spike loved either Dru or Buffy. He thought he did, but Spike was essentially the same person he was when he met both of them; a lost soul trying to find the best (or worst) version of himself through the eyes of someone else.

I'm still iffy on Spike as a person when the series ends because I always preferred Angel's dynamic with Buffy where he would call her out when necessary. Spike did little in Season 7 other than stick with Buffy doggedly as she made questionable decisions. To me it didn't feel like they were peers at all, just them being quite convenient to each other in that moment in time.

Spike is a bit of a pup if I'm being honest, always looking for vindication for his existence through the eyes of someone else.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Hot take but I don't think Spike loved either Dru or Buffy. He thought he did, but Spike was essentially the same person he was when he met both of them; a lost soul trying to find the best (or worst) version of himself through the eyes of someone else.

I'm still iffy on Spike as a person when the series ends because I always preferred Angel's dynamic with Buffy where he would call her out when necessary. Spike did little in Season 7 other than stick with Buffy doggedly as she made questionable decisions. To me it didn't feel like they were peers at all, just them being quite convenient to each other in that moment in time.

Spike is a bit of a pup if I'm being honest, always looking for vindication for his existence through the eyes of someone else.

That actually makes a lot of sense and I agree with you on that. I could always take or leave Spike, I just never could see how anyone could say with a straight face that he is who Buffy should’ve been with.

Hell, season 7, she was still emotional about having to kill Angel and asked Willow and Xander if they even remembered that.

 

[Filmfreak]

But he did attempt to kill her. So call it even.

Spike tried to kill her numerous times as a villain. And he wasn't a whole different personality like Angelus was. I wouldn't call it anywhere near even.

 

[TheFuture]

That actually makes a lot of sense and I agree with you on that. I could always take or leave Spike, I just never could see how anyone could say with a straight face that he is who Buffy should’ve been with.

Hell, season 7, she was still emotional about having to kill Angel and asked Willow and Xander if they even remembered that.

I don't think Buffy will be the last woman that William fixates on. I do like Spike and I always liked how earnest he became in Season 5 and early on in Season 6. As the gang began to become increasingly off the rails, with some literally losing their humanity, Spike started to regain his.

He genuinely was the most likeable person on the show at one point, but I always saw the relationship with Buffy as unhealthy. It made him less human.

I always preferred Buffy on her own anyway. The one thing I would hope from this reboot in the pipeline is that they reduce the amount of romantic relationships. Just let people be who they are without them constantly needing the emotional crutch of a relationship.

 

[Dr.]

Spike tried to kill her numerous times as a villain. And he wasn't a whole different personality like Angelus was. I wouldn't call it anywhere near even.

Buffy wasn’t entirely consistent with its moral philosophy vis-à-vis the “soul.”

Usually, Angel was forgiven his past evils as Angelus because: no soul = no free will and no moral responsibility. But when it was convenient for a given plot point, Angel was held responsible. Likewise, Spike.

 

[SiegePerilous]

It's really not that empowering for a female character to get sexually assaulted for the benefit of a male character's arc and then have her feelings for it glossed over so she can help her assaulter be rehabilitated.

I'm a Bangel shipper, but I think from a modern perspective neither romance as written holds up completely and she may be better without either. But God between the two of them, Spike/Spuffy runs on so many more godawful tropes that I'm gonna champion Bangel (80% out of love, 20% out of spite towards Joss)

Buffy wasn’t entirely consistent with its moral philosophy vis-à-vis the “soul.”

Most of that really comes from them wanting it both ways in the Spike era. The earlier stuff with Angel is more consistent, at least in comparison. Nothing about Spike's arc make sense when you really think about it past season 4 (even that has the blatant "why isn't she just staking him when he's powerless?" plot armor).

 

[Primal Slayer]

Buffy wasn’t entirely consistent with its moral philosophy vis-à-vis the “soul.”

Usually, Angel was forgiven his past evils as Angelus because: no soul = no free will and no moral responsibility. But when it was convenient for a given plot point, Angel was held responsible. Likewise, Spike.

When it came to Angel, it was either someone from his past or someone who just didnt like him that held him responsible for Angelus. Everyone accepting Spike because he became "de-fanged" against humans was....it worked but got out of hand. Buffy was able to put Angel down when it came to it but couldnt do the same with Spike in S6/7 and it hurt the show.

As I do my rewatch along with the Buffering podcast, I really wish there was Faith mention in Bargaining. Sure

Spoiler

Buffy was dead and they thought she was in hell

but it should've been a mention of possibly breaking Faith out to keep Sunnydale intact.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I still also feel that not having more crossovers during Buffy S6 and Angel S3 was a missed opportunity because of that silly WB/UPN feud. There was a book that came out in 2003 called Buffy/Angel Monster Island that would've been a great storyline for a crossover.

Always wanted to see Buffy meeting Connor and her reaction to that.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I still also feel that not having more crossovers during Buffy S6 and Angel S3 was a missed opportunity because of that silly WB/UPN feud. There was a book that came out in 2003 called Buffy/Angel Monster Island that would've been a great storyline for a crossover.

Always wanted to see Buffy meeting Connor and her reaction to that.

I'm still mad that we were robbed of a Buffy/Angel reunion and that it happened off screen. The comic that came out just didnt do it justice.

I forgot about the Buffy books, they were sooooooo good. Id say even better than the comics. They kept it grounded and realistic to the universe that was set up as opposed to going overboard like the comics have.

If Buffy/Angel were produced today the crossovers would be EPIC instead of small scale and "intimate" (which is great but I always welcome EPIC)

 

[SiegePerilous]

Definitely would have liked more crossovers between the shows, and I think the move to UPN took some of the "magic" away from the original era (BtVS seasons 1-5/AtS season 1-2). I wouldn't want either show to lose their ability to each stand alone, but it feels like a major missed opportunity that we never got to see Buffy meet most of Angel's crew.

I feel like at least Angel and Cordelia, if not his whole team, should have been present for "the Gift." Dark Willow would have been a good threat to spread across both shows to make her more of an epic "Dark Phoenix" level antagonist. And Wolfram and Hart should have had some appearances in BtVS.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Wolfram and Hart vs. The Watchers Council would've been fun

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I'm still mad that we were robbed of a Buffy/Angel reunion and that it happened off screen. The comic that came out just didnt do it justice.

I forgot about the Buffy books, they were sooooooo good. Id say even better than the comics. They kept it grounded and realistic to the universe that was set up as opposed to going overboard like the comics have.

If Buffy/Angel were produced today the crossovers would be EPIC instead of small scale and "intimate" (which is great but I always welcome EPIC)

Yes the books were always really good. There were some gems in there. The first two volumes of Tales of The Slayer, Monster Island, and one called Blackout were my faves.

I used to clean Borders out with the Buffy and Charmed books lol.

ETA: I could kick myself for not buying some of the original Buffy Dark Horse comics or this one