Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[Havok83]

I just read that the Buffy movie lost its screenwriter. I didn't even know there were plans for a movie

 

[Lord]

This confuses me.

Are you trying to say Liam (Human Angel) didn't have a soul? Because he did, he was just a drunken bastard. Which is the point I was trying to make. Just because you have a soul doesn't mean you'll be a good person.

No, i'm saying that Angelus has a lot of traces of Angel before he became a vampire, than after he gained a soul, i never implied that he didn't have a soul before

 

[The Question]

I dont know I still call Spike out like Angel did that he only got his soul to get into Buffy's pants. far from his noble reasoning. And Spike stated many times in the series that he didnt really care about atonement. It shifted alitte by the end but he still says the reason he wanted the shanshu was so angel could not have it.

Still, the main difference between the two is that Spike wanted his soul. Angel didn't. That says a lot.

And yeah, Spike may be a petty *******, but so is Angel sometimes. And I think there was subtext there of Spike wanting to prove he's good by claiming the prophecy just as much as Angel does.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Still, the main difference between the two is that Spike wanted his soul. Angel didn't. That says a lot.

And yeah, Spike may be a petty *******, but so is Angel sometimes. And I think there was subtext there of Spike wanting to prove he's good by claiming the prophecy just as much as Angel does.

Angel wanted his soul back but he feeled he needed to atone whilst Spike felt he had. There's also of course the little brother/big brother rivalry between the two which shouldn't be disregarded

 

[Hush]

Still, the main difference between the two is that Spike wanted his soul. Angel didn't. That says a lot.

And yeah, Spike may be a petty *******, but so is Angel sometimes. And I think there was subtext there of Spike wanting to prove he's good by claiming the prophecy just as much as Angel does.

I disagree with your first line and slightly agree with your second line. I think that Angel will always want his soul because as Liam he was just a Drunk then as you know became the killer that is Angelus and then became Angel/Liam again and realized his folly. He needs his soul more than Spike does and I feel therefore wants it more. Even when he kills Jenny as Angelus you know that as Angel/Liam he feels shame for allowing the Demon to take over. I feel Spike honestly just got the Soul so that he could be with Buffy and honestly he did it for very selfish reasons which is no way to re-attain your soul. His personality didn't change that much and he was a tad more caring but he had been caring for the Scoobies well before that. Basically when Spike comes to Sunnydale for the second time on he is a anti-villain essentially and he has very little "pure evil" in him anymore and that shows more and more with every appearance along with his affections for Buffy. As Lorenzo said, Angel calls him out on it and I feel that he is right when he does because in the end Angel is smarter that Spike and will always be more noble because of what Angel has gone through.

 

[Doomed_hero]

I agree with Hush. I think Spike going through the demon trials to get his soul for Buffy, but in the end it is for selfess reasons. If he was faces with a moment like Angel who became human and could be with Buffy, but gave it up cause the fight was more important then his happiness, I dont know if Spike could do that. Now I see glimspes of that with Spike and he develops alot by the end of Angel. I still think its him who has the longer path then angel, cause Angel already knows his path is to help the helpess. Spike is still searching

 

[Lord]

Anybody remembers this guy?

The one on the right, he was Archduke Sebassis's slave, i still think that his death was one of Angels worst actions during season 5, i mean, i understand that he needed to kill Sebassis but his slave tried to run from him many times and was pratically asking to be saved.

Angel killed him, an inocent to kill Sebassis, that's a bit cruel

 

[Doomed_hero]

Angel had to make some hard calls in the end but its what the series is about, that winning does not come easy and in some cases you have to weigh one life against the freedom of humanity. Hell he practically ended world peace in the 4th season but it was the right thing to do.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Hell he killed the keeper of the deeper well too. He was ruthlesson the last season but he'd lost a lot by then

 

[AxlsAppetite]

Plus that slave was weird and creepy.

 

[Lord]

Plus that slave was weird and creepy.

Probably because his vens were drained of blood every time his master was thirsty, his life was terrible and he wanted to escape from his terrible master

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, at the end of the day, he's a filthy demon.

But yeah, Angel was pretty brutal toward the end of his show. Hell, he murdered that human W&H grunt in the first episode of season 5 with his own shotgun. A couple seasons earlier, he probably would've tried to save him or, at the very least, imprison him humanely.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

No, i'm saying that Angelus has a lot of traces of Angel before he became a vampire, than after he gained a soul, i never implied that he didn't have a soul before

I agree with that, and it makes sense because both Angelus and Liam had no guilt.

Liam because he hadn't done any of the horrific acts he would as a vampire yet, and Angelus because he didn't have a soul.

 

[AxlsAppetite]

EDIT:

nevermind

 

[K'Prime]

But yeah, Angel was pretty brutal toward the end of his show. Hell, he murdered that human W&H grunt in the first episode of season 5 with his own shotgun. A couple seasons earlier, he probably would've tried to save him or, at the very least, imprison him humanely.

to be fair that guy was taking initiative in killing a kid.after all the stuff angles been threw.its not really surprising that his tolerance for such crap hit an all time low.that's not the type of person that learns his lesson some day.thats the guy whos conviction is to what wolf manram&heart is.so really he was just being proactive and dealing with a problem now as opposed to dealing with it later

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, same goes for Lindsey. Once he stopped flip-flopping and proved he was totally irredeemable, Angel had Lorne straight-up execute him. I guess that W&H operative just proved it a lot quicker by shooting up a school.

 

[flickchick85]

All these things you all are discussing are the reasons I always preferred Angel as a character over fan-favorite Spike. At the end of the day, Spike (especially in later seasons) just seemed a bit like your typical "woobie" character - "bad boy" on the outside, insecure little marshmallow on the inside just looking for love. The type of character that's just made for teenage girls to fall in love with.

Angel, on the other hand, always had this true dark side to him, and I'm not necessarily talking about Angelus. There was something...grittier and hardened about him, like a real noir hero, that I always found endlessly fascinating. Of course, he mostly didn't show these colors until he left Buffy, so I didn't really love him as a character 'til he went solo.

For the record, I loved Spike too - two of my all-time favorite episodes of Buffy were Spike-centric (Fool for Love and Lies My Parents Told Me), and his character was beautifully-realized... but on the whole, I just didn't find him as interesting or as surprising a character as Angel.

 

[AxlsAppetite]

Yeah, same goes for Lindsey. Once he stopped flip-flopping and proved he was totally irredeemable, Angel had Lorne straight-up execute him. I guess that W&H operative just proved it a lot quicker by shooting up a school.

I was not pleased with Lindsey's murder. They did the same thing to Krycek in the X-Files. The badass flip-flopper always has to die.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

All these things you all are discussing are the reasons I always preferred Angel as a character over fan-favorite Spike. At the end of the day, Spike (especially in later seasons) just seemed a bit like your typical "woobie" character - "bad boy" on the outside, insecure little marshmallow on the inside just looking for love. The type of character that's just made for teenage girls to fall in love with.

Angel, on the other hand, always had this true dark side to him, and I'm not necessarily talking about Angelus. There was something...grittier and hardened about him, like a real noir hero, that I always found endlessly fascinating. Of course, he mostly didn't show these colors until he left Buffy, so I didn't really love him as a character 'til he went solo.

For the record, I loved Spike too - two of my all-time favorite episodes of Buffy were Spike-centric (Fool for Love and Lies My Parents Told Me), and his character was beautifully-realized... but on the whole, I just didn't find him as interesting or as surprising a character as Angel.

I think that's true that Spike was designed that way and the guy who Dawn loses her virginity to fits that description almost to a tee. But Spike grows beyond that over time and that's one of the keys of the character. But I also prefer Angel and I think he could pull off his own spinoff series which Spike couldn't.
I have to say I loved the way they killed Lindsey, the fact that it's Lorne who does it who in 4 years on the show never killed anyone or anything makes it all the better. As Lorne says 'I heard you sing', Lindsey isn't the solution, he's the problem

 

[flickchick85]

I think that's true that Spike was designed that way and the guy who Dawn loses her virginity to fits that description almost to a tee. But Spike grows beyond that over time and that's one of the keys of the character.

See, I felt he grew INTO that character over time. He didn't start out that way, imo. Once Marti Noxon took over in S5, she totally turned Spike into that character that the teen girl demo covets - the lovesick bad boy who needs to prove his worthiness to the heroine. Before that, he was a fun-yet-sensitive villain. And while he became more noble and more interested in the big picture in the final season, even after he sacrificed himself for the greater good, it always came back to The Girl with Spike, one way or another. He protected Dawn for Buffy. He got his soul for Buffy. He joined The Cause for Buffy. And until about episode 20 of the final season of Angel, he was constantly talking about getting back to Buffy at some point, now that he was a proven hero and she had finally acknowledged that the she cared for him.

Angel, on the other hand, never stopped seeing Buffy as the most important person in his life, but he had a lot bigger things on his mind, and his accomplishments didn't all boil back to trying to prove himself to a girl.

I know sound like a total Spike-basher, but I love him. And despite being a well-worn TV trope of a character, I think he's one of the very best examples of that character type TV has seen. Like I said, he was beautifully-realized and his vast evolution always seemed perfectly organic. I just found Angel's character a bit harder to pin down and therefore more interesting on the whole.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

See, I felt he grew INTO that character over time. He didn't start out that way, imo. Once Marti Noxon took over in S5, she totally turned Spike into that character that the teen girl demo covets - the lovesick bad boy who needs to prove his worthiness to the heroine. Before that, he was a fun-yet-sensitive villain. And while he became more noble and more interested in the big picture in the final season, even after he sacrificed himself for the greater good, it always came back to The Girl with Spike, one way or another. He protected Dawn for Buffy. He got his soul for Buffy. He joined The Cause for Buffy. And until about episode 20 of the final season of Angel, he was constantly talking about getting back to Buffy at some point, now that he was a proven hero and she had finally acknowledged that the she cared for him.

Angel, on the other hand, never stopped seeing Buffy as the most important person in his life, but he had a lot bigger things on his mind, and his accomplishments didn't all boil back to trying to prove himself to a girl. I just found Angel's character a lot harder to pin down and therefore more interesting.

I know sound like a total Spike-basher, but I love him. And despite being a well-worn TV trope of a character, I think he's one of the very best examples of that character type TV has seen. Like I said, he was beautifully-realized and his vast evolution always seemed perfectly organic. I just found Angel's character a bit harder to pin down and therefore more interesting on the whole.

I'm not sure Spike ever changed that much, even in School Hard when he first sees Buffy at the Bronze there's a hint of attraction. He get's lovesick in season 5/6 but he's still him and he get's the bad boy back in season 7. But he's always William the Bloody deep down (in both senses)

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's the main difference between Spike and Angel: Spike never repents for a damn thing. Angel regains his soul and spends decades feeling horrible for what he's done, then decades more attempting to atone. Spike regains his soul and he's like, "Yeah, I totally did all that s***. But now I'm good, so forget all that and let me back in your pants, Buffy!"

I may be exaggerating a bit, but the point still stands.

 

[Doomed_hero]

I think we kinda started to see Spikes regretiful side after he gets his arms cut off by that crazy slayer. I dont think he willl ever go about it the same way or as intense as Angel but also I think Spike has come to terms with his past as far as what he did to his mother and when he was able to overcome that he could maybe overcome the horrible things he did and that he was also a victim. Angel never really saw himself as a victim and blames himself for all he has done.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I'm not sure Spike ever changed that much, even in School Hard when he first sees Buffy at the Bronze there's a hint of attraction. He get's lovesick in season 5/6 but he's still him and he get's the bad boy back in season 7. But he's always William the Bloody deep down (in both senses)

You also had that episode in s3 where he is lovesick for Drusilla, and comes back to Sunnydale to find a magic potion to get over her.

That's the main difference between Spike and Angel: Spike never repents for a damn thing. Angel regains his soul and spends decades feeling horrible for what he's done, then decades more attempting to atone. Spike regains his soul and he's like, "Yeah, I totally did all that s***. But now I'm good, so forget all that and let me back in your pants, Buffy!"

I may be exaggerating a bit, but the point still stands.

I don't think it does really.
Y'see, it was easy to do the whole thing with Angel being repentant and beating himself up for ages when he got his soul back, *because that all took place before the show's timeline kicks off*. If they had portrayed the character like that all the time during the show, he would have been a drag to watch.
They did have Spike being repentant, and wanting to make amends for his vampire days, but they couldn't go too far with him tearing himself up, they also had to continue to display the traits we already loved about the character, the humour and the wild streak, so he didn't become a 'repetitive bore' you might say, haha, and they found a good balance with that in the final season I thought.
Hell, even Buffy comments that she is tired of seeing him being mopey souled up Spike, because he has lost his edge, lost his wild streak, which is no good to her for taking care of business in the final battle.

See, if you look at it from *that* pov, you could say that Angel wasted a lot of time pissing about feeling sorry for himself, when he could have been out there being a superhero and using his powers to help make up for his vampire days. that is basically what Whistler says to him in the flashback scenes, when he enlists him to help Buffy.

 

[Doomed_hero]

Angel didnt trust himself for awhile and just wanted to hide from the world till Buffy showed him how to be a hero. Spike got his soul for buffy and had her there to show him the way. So there is a difference.