The Dark Knight Caine: "Heath frightened the life out of me"

[Solidus]

Anyone who complains that Jack Nicholson's Joker was not a good, scratch that - GREAT interpretation is a fool. Plain and simple. I understand opinions vary, but just as I can have the opinion that the shovel in my garage is really a lumberjack - it doesn't change the fact that in reality it is a shovel.

Jack Nicholson's Joker was very in character and in tune with the character of the comics, period.

That is not to say Heath Ledger will not be as well, his Joker will simply be from different writers take on the same character.

To bash Jack because you feel the need to protect Heath, protect Nolan or hell, bash Burton and his films is ridiculous.

Thats pretty hypocritical. Just because some people do not care for Jack's Joker does not make them a fool. A lot of people I know, including just general movie goers, some agree with me some don't. I don't do it just to rave about Heath's Joker. I have for years never liked Jack's character.

In fact I found it so bland, I for a long time never liked the Joker. Then a few years after B89 I started reading a lot of the comics, and saw the real Joker that I appreciated much more then Jack's Joker.

Just because some one does not care for him does not make him a fool. And not to push buttons, but now that Begins is out and the new trilogy is starting, most look back at B89 or Returns, and laughs at how cheesy they were. It's just preference. And if you like Jack's Joker I am not going to call you a fool, I respect what you believe, and can understand why many liked his Joker, but then I can see why many like myself did not.

 

[TheLongestDay]

Thats pretty hypocritical. Just because some people do not care for Jack's Joker does not make them a fool. A lot of people I know, including just general movie goers, some agree with me some don't. I don't do it just to rave about Heath's Joker. I have for years never liked Jack's character.

In fact I found it so bland, I for a long time never liked the Joker. Then a few years after B89 I started reading a lot of the comics, and saw the real Joker that I appreciated much more then Jack's Joker.

Just because some one does not care for him does not make him a fool. And not to push buttons, but now that Begins is out and the new trilogy is starting, most look back at B89 or Returns, and laughs at how cheesy they were. It's just preference. And if you like Jack's Joker I am not going to call you a fool, I respect what you believe, and can understand why many liked his Joker, but then I can see why many like myself did not.

:bat:

 

[Reek]

i like burtons batman, i like nolans batman....i didnt like Nicholsons joker. regardless how heath does.

i guess im dumb.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I also don't like Jack's Joker. And I'm not saying that because of Heath's Joker, either. I'm saying it because ever since I was exposed to to Mark Hamill's much more humorous, much more psychotic (IMO) Joker, I liked that one a lot better and found Jack's to be boring and medocre. I admit that some of the Joker's actions in Batman '89 were pure Joker, but that doesn't mean that Jack did a good job in the role. People are terrified of the Joker in the comics and in TAS. They weren't scared of him in Batman '89 unless they were alone with him. Even after he'd pretty blatantly tried to poison folks in Gotham, there were still hundreds of people that showed up at the parade he was throwing. I dunno about you guys, but if somebody tried to poison my city, I wouldn't show up at their parade no matter how much money they were offering me. And if the Joker were real, he wouldn't be a person I'd wanna be around.

 

[TheLongestDay]

so far,my fave portrayal has been Hamill in Batman beyond:return of the joker-but i have a strong feeling Heath will own all

 

[A Dark Knight]

I think that Heath is going to own this role after this movie comes out and by saying that I am not taking anything away from Jack or Hamill's take, they were both great. From what I have read about Heath's take, from the costume, to the voice, the psychoic evilness and the dark tone that the film has taken, all of these things are what I wanted and was hoping for in this film and I can't wait to see it.

 

[TheLongestDay]

I think that Heath is going to own this role after this movie comes out and by saying that I am not taking anything away from Jack or Hamill's take, they were both great. From what I have read about Heath's take, from the costume, to the voice, the psychoic evilness and the dark tone that the film has taken, all of these things are what I wanted and was hoping for in this film and I can't wait to see it.

:bat:

 

[DieSmiling]

I see. So not liking another movie makes you more prepared to like something else?

Yes, as a lifelong Batman fan who loved Batman Begins.

Nolan's interpretation of the character has been the best I've ever seen. If Nolan did the justice to Batman, Alfred, and Gordon that no one else has, why wouldn't I expect the same for Joker, Dent, etc?

Since:

A) Joker is my favorite character
B) I wasn't a big fan of Nicholson's portrayal and
C) I love Heath Ledger as an actor, I'm much more prepared to love this movie.

What's wrong with accepting this praise without bashing something else in the process?

Nothing. I wasn't bashing Nicholson (other than to make the honest point that I didn't like his Joker much, but I don't consider that "bashing") and I wasn't saying people who were are in the right. Just offering my two cents.

 

[DieSmiling]

Anyone who complains that Jack Nicholson's Joker was not a good, scratch that - GREAT interpretation is a fool. Plain and simple. I understand opinions vary, but just as I can have the opinion that the shovel in my garage is really a lumberjack - it doesn't change the fact that in reality it is a shovel.

Jack Nicholson's Joker was very in character and in tune with the character of the comics, period.

That is not to say Heath Ledger will not be as well, his Joker will simply be from different writers take on the same character.

To bash Jack because you feel the need to protect Heath, protect Nolan or hell, bash Burton and his films is ridiculous.

Ridiculous statement. Just because people didn't like Nicholson as Joker doesn't mean they're protecting Heath, and it doesn't mean they're wrong.

He just wasn't dark enough, scary enough, or crazy enough for me. He wasn't a bad interpretation of the Joker, and he was true to the character in a cheesy traditional way, but I just didn't really like what he did. I hated the fact that he was fat, I hated the fact that he was old, and I hated the fact that he seemed like Jack Nicholson x2 instead of the Joker. I never bought him.

Part of my dislike for the character isn't Nicholson's fault, such as him killing Batman's parents, etc. but to me, Jack Nicholson was never the definitive Joker -- I just don't like him in the part, and a lot of Batman and Joker fans agree.

I've never seen a Joker I like more than Hamil in TAS, but I'm excited because I think Heath will pass that.

 

[TheLongestDay]

Yes, as a lifelong Batman fan who loved Batman Begins.

Nolan's interpretation of the character has been the best I've ever seen. If Nolan did the justice to Batman, Alfred, and Gordon that no one else has, why wouldn't I expect the same for Joker, Dent, etc?

Since:

A) Joker is my favorite character
B) I wasn't a big fan of Nicholson's portrayal and
C) I love Heath Ledger as an actor, I'm much more prepared to love this movie.



Nothing. I wasn't bashing Nicholson (other than to make the honest point that I didn't like his Joker much, but I don't consider that "bashing") and I wasn't saying people who were are in the right. Just offering my two cents.

i made a very similar point earlier-total agreement

 

[El Payaso]

Thats pretty hypocritical. Just because some people do not care for Jack's Joker does not make them a fool.

I agree.

Doing it for no reason with no basis and no valid arguments, nevertheless, it does.

A lot of people I know, including just general movie goers, some agree with me some don't. I don't do it just to rave about Heath's Joker.

Then why exactly do you do it in a TDK board in a Heat Ledger thread?

And not to push buttons,

Translation: And precisely in order to push buttons...

but now that Begins is out and the new trilogy is starting, most look back at B89 or Returns, and laughs at how cheesy they were.

Most? Any link to this well-backed up piece of info?

I also don't like Jack's Joker. And I'm not saying that because of Heath's Joker, either.

Once again, then why do you say it in a thread that has nothing nto do with Jack's Joker?

I'm saying it because ever since I was exposed to to Mark Hamill's much more humorous, much more psychotic (IMO) Joker, I liked that one a lot better and found Jack's to be boring and medocre.

Jack's Joker was far more dangerous than the anmiated one, where deaths rarely happened. Maybe you like a more inoffensive Joker.

I admit that some of the Joker's actions in Batman '89 were pure Joker, but that doesn't mean that Jack did a good job in the role.

No, the fact that he did an awesome acting job means it.

People are terrified of the Joker in the comics and in TAS. They weren't scared of him in Batman '89 unless they were alone with him.

And by "peeopel and "they" you're refering to who...? What focus group exactly in what research about Joker's liking you're basing your well-informed opinions on?

Even after he'd pretty blatantly tried to poison folks in Gotham, there were still hundreds of people that showed up at the parade he was throwing. I dunno about you guys, but if somebody tried to poison my city, I wouldn't show up at their parade no matter how much money they were offering me.

People were there picking up the money. After the gas they were running afraid and/or dying with a smile.

I recommend you to watch the movie.

And if the Joker were real, he wouldn't be a person I'd wanna be around.

At last an assertive statement. I don't know what's the point of it here but it's very true.

 

[Voyeur]

I have mixed feelings about Nicholson. He was certainly fun to watch...and looked like he was having fun as well. In many ways he (and Danny Elfman, I suppose) was the best thing about the film. Yet, there was something a little off about a paunchy, 50-something year old guy portraying Batman's greatest villain.

Most of all, a great Joker has to be some sort of cross between scary and funny. Nicholson leaned more toward funny. It SOUNDS like Ledger is gonna lean toward scary. It'll be interesting to compare.

 

[DieSmiling]

And by "peeopel and "they" you're refering to who...? What focus group exactly in what research about Joker's liking you're basing your well-informed opinions on?

I'm pretty sure by "people" he means the characters within the continuity.

 

[TheLongestDay]

I have mixed feelings about Nicholson. He was certainly fun to watch...and looked like he was having fun as well. In many ways he (and Danny Elfman, I suppose) was the best thing about the film. Yet, there was something a little off about a paunchy, 50-something year old guy portraying Batman's greatest villain.

Most of all, a great Joker has to be some sort of cross between scary and funny. Nicholson leaned more toward funny. It SOUNDS like Ledger is gonna lean toward scary. It'll be interesting to compare.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya, I thought Jack was funny. I thought Hamil was scary and when i got older funny.

 

[El Payaso]

Yes, as a lifelong Batman fan who loved Batman Begins.

Nolan's interpretation of the character has been the best I've ever seen. If Nolan did the justice to Batman, Alfred, and Gordon that no one else has, why wouldn't I expect the same for Joker, Dent, etc?

Yeah, no reason to not expect that.

That said, how is that hating something else makes you more prepared, which was my original question which you totally avoided? Because it seems that the liking for Nolan's vision is what is making it. Not the pointless bashing...

Since:

A) Joker is my favorite character
B) I wasn't a big fan of Nicholson's portrayal and
C) I love Heath Ledger as an actor, I'm much more prepared to love this movie.

Excellent deconstruction of prejudice. I like the character, I want to hate other visions, I want to like more the new one that I haven't seen.

Nothing. I wasn't bashing Nicholson (other than to make the honest point that I didn't like his Joker much, but I don't consider that "bashing") and I wasn't saying people who were are in the right. Just offering my two cents.

You don't say they were in the right, you were just doing the same. lol

Ridiculous statement. Just because people didn't like Nicholson as Joker doesn't mean they're protecting Heath

It doesn't have to mean that. But yet they were.

He just wasn't dark enough, scary enough, or crazy enough for me.

It would be redundant to copy and paste the list of dark, scary and crazy things he actually did. It is more safe to enjoy the things he's doing in a movie that hasn't been done yet.

He wasn't a bad interpretation of the Joker, and he was true to the character in a cheesy traditional way, but I just didn't really like what he did. I hated the fact that he was fat, I hated the fact that he was old, and I hated the fact that he seemed like Jack Nicholson x2 instead of the Joker. I never bought him.

Part of my dislike for the character isn't Nicholson's fault, such as him killing Batman's parents, etc. but to me, Jack Nicholson was never the definitive Joker -- I just don't like him in the part, and a lot of Batman and Joker fans agree.

The point of your disliking was clear ages ago.

The point of bashing Nicholson in a Ledger thread is not. But thatnks for clearing upo it's just you didn't like it more than a laughable 'oh he was not dangerous.'

 

[Solidus]

I agree.

Doing it for no reason with no basis and no valid arguments, nevertheless, it does.



Then why exactly do you do it in a TDK board in a Heat Ledger thread?



Translation: And precisely in order to push buttons...



Most? Any link to this well-backed up piece of info?



Once again, then why do you say it in a thread that has nothing nto do with Jack's Joker?



Jack's Joker was far more dangerous than the anmiated one, where deaths rarely happened. Maybe you like a more inoffensive Joker.



No, the fact that he did an awesome acting job means it.



And by "peeopel and "they" you're refering to who...? What focus group exactly in what research about Joker's liking you're basing your well-informed opinions on?



People were there picking up the money. After the gas they were running afraid and/or dying with a smile.

I recommend you to watch the movie.



At last an assertive statement. I don't know what's the point of it here but it's very true.

Yea first go to IMDB, and look that 135,000 people gave an average rating of an 8.3 which is good for that site. Even though IMDB reviews can get skewed, once you get past 50,000 ratings, it begins to average out to a reasonable echo of the movie's rating. I mean at first Spider-man 3 with only 20,000 reviews was at the high 7's. And now with many more general audiances rating it it is at the 6.9 area where most would agree it lies. If you just read boards you will know. And B89 is at a 7.5 with about 65,000 reviews, now I'm not saying it's bad, but clearly a lot of people feel Batman Begins is better then B89.

Second go to Rottentomatoes.com, and read a lot of the reviews, a majority of them will say they liked it way more then Burton's. I'm not going to go find some for you, but I'm sure if you can read, it won't take long to see this.

And just a lot of people I talk to , though I cannot show facts of this, they like BB better. If you ask most people they will tend to like it more. I know this because I have Batman posters, including the Begins one and most when they come to my house point it out and say they liked that movie.

I know you just love to fight, and you like to provoke people and just drag these things out.

Now even still these sites I'm sure your going to say thats not hard core enough evidence, which in any case even if anyone had pure proof of BB being liked more you still would complain and not want to listen to it.

Now yes clearly B89 made more money then Begins did, and during that time cheaper tickets meant more ticket sales. But do remember that Begins had to follow Batman and Robin, the credibility of Batman was smashed beyond repair. But due to his magic Nolan revived it. And the DVD sales for BB were tremendous, and I bet you, I can't concretley say this, but I bet TDK will be the biggest movie of 08. And make a TON of money now that many have seen BB on DVD and the word is out that Batman are good movies again.

Now I'm not saying B89 sucks, I just prefer Nolan's vision over Burton's.

But just from IMDB, and just go around the interent, people clearly liked Batman Begins. The general populance, as well as critics seemed to love Nolan's Batman a little better.

But I bet your just gonna want to tear this post apart, and try to drag this on and on and on.

I'm just saying from my eyes, BB is looking much more popular and I bet most people on this board would agree.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm pretty sure by "people" he means the characters within the continuity.

Oh I got it. So the people running scared at the parade were... what, cheering him?

 

[StorminNorman]

Thats pretty hypocritical. Just because some people do not care for Jack's Joker does not make them a fool. A lot of people I know, including just general movie goers, some agree with me some don't. I don't do it just to rave about Heath's Joker. I have for years never liked Jack's character.

Didn't you read my post? I think I just said that people not caring for Jack's Joker does in fact make them fools.

In fact I found it so bland, I for a long time never liked the Joker. Then a few years after B89 I started reading a lot of the comics, and saw the real Joker that I appreciated much more then Jack's Joker.

Name one thing Jack did that is out of character. Or one thing the Joker did in the comics that you can't see Jacks Joker doing.

Just because some one does not care for him does not make him a fool. And not to push buttons, but now that Begins is out and the new trilogy is starting, most look back at B89 or Returns, and laughs at how cheesy they were. It's just preference. And if you like Jack's Joker I am not going to call you a fool, I respect what you believe, and can understand why many liked his Joker, but then I can see why many like myself did not.

I said nothing about the movies. Yes - they were not up to quality - IMO - that Begins is, and I believe The Dark Knight will be. But that does not take away that Jack's Joker was an incredibly accurate take on the character and, probably, just as - if not far more - accurate than Heath's Joker. Not that I have a problem with that.

 

[Reek]

we should just end this dispute....lets just all agree we are excited about what heath is gonna bring to the joker. theres no winner or loser in a debate on this stuff.

I Believe in Heath Ledger....and lets HOPE I am right.

 

[Solidus]

I agree, I Think some of these posts bring out the worst in us and I know it has for me.

I'm just saying I think Heath will be great. And I'm sorry if I found Jack's Joker not as good. I could get into it and if you want StorminNormin I will talk through PM. But I respect everyone on this board and dont' want to throw up a lot of dust.

 

[TheLongestDay]

we should just end this dispute....lets just all agree we are excited about what heath is gonna bring to the joker. theres no winner or loser in a debate on this stuff.

I Believe in Heath Ledger....and lets HOPE I am right.

amen to that sir!

 

[Reek]

yes indeed...back to the thread topic...Caine said heath scared the life out of me.... hes an old actor, been in many movies, and really doesnt have a need to lie just for publicity.... if Caine is amazed about Heaths performance... my anticipation is at a high that is unrivaled.

I cant wait to "see him in december."

 

[StorminNorman]

Ridiculous statement. Just because people didn't like Nicholson as Joker doesn't mean they're protecting Heath, and it doesn't mean they're wrong.

1. I didn't say all those that bash Nicholson do so with a clear motive. People could simply lack taste. Its been known to happen.

He just wasn't dark enough, scary enough, or crazy enough for me. He wasn't a bad interpretation of the Joker, and he was true to the character in a cheesy traditional way, but I just didn't really like what he did. I hated the fact that he was fat, I hated the fact that he was old, and I hated the fact that he seemed like Jack Nicholson x2 instead of the Joker. I never bought him.

He wasn't dark enough? He tried to kill all of Gotham. He electrocuted a man that came to him with the thoughts of negotiating with him. He drove a woman to commit suicide. He orchestrated the public execution of several men. He brilliantly found a way to either poison Gotham, or force them to give up their very way of life. He killed two women, and then used them in commercials. How is this not dark? How is this not scary? How is this not crazy?

You hate the fact he was old, fine - but if you are really going to hold that against him, then you must hold the fact that Ledger will not be a traditional Joker either.

Part of my dislike for the character isn't Nicholson's fault, such as him killing Batman's parents, etc. but to me, Jack Nicholson was never the definitive Joker -- I just don't like him in the part, and a lot of Batman and Joker fans agree.

Killing Batman's parents certainly isn't un-Joker like. I would argue a small minority of Batman fans agree with you quite personally.

I've never seen a Joker I like more than Hamil in TAS, but I'm excited because I think Heath will pass that.

You never saw Hamil's Joker, you heard Hamil's Joker - but never saw.

 

[Solidus]

yes indeed...back to the thread topic...Caine said heath scared the life out of me.... hes an old actor, been in many movies, and really doesnt have a need to lie just for publicity.... if Caine is amazed about Heaths performance... my anticipation is at a high that is unrivaled.

I cant wait to "see him in december."

Either can I, I get giddy just thinking about what it will look like. Man I hate talking about it because it makes me impatient lol.