The Winter Soldier Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]476541[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]475803[/split]

 

[DorkyFresh]

The point most of us are trying to make is that every CBM has problems, but we suspend our disbelief and enjoy them anyway.

I understand that..and I agree with it. Despite the numerous flaws in SM2, X2, Iron Man, Thor, Thor: Dark World, Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, and First Class I am able to enjoy those movies for what they are. I've also stated multiple times that 'Winter Soldier' is a fun movie.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Yay, new thread!

 

[Ms. Marvel]

They established Falcon's wings (subtly) early on in the movie when Sam and Steve are bonding.

 

[The Guard]

No they didn't.

They had him tell us he was part of an airborne division.

That is akin, in this movie, to setting up a punchline. It is not the development of a concept as unique as a jetpack with wings.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

They established Falcon's wings (subtly) early on in the movie when Sam and Steve are bonding.

And Zola was established as a mad scientist with crazy tech in the first film.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

An Easter egg in TFA shows Zola's blueprints for an android version of himself.

 

[Suzanne78]

*peeks into shiny new thread…*

*sees a BATS vs. TWS discussion…*

LOLNOPE!

 

[The Guard]

An Easter egg in TFA shows Zola's blueprints for an android version of himself.

That is hardly a satisfying explanation for the concept of being able to transfer one's consciousness/brain/whatever into a computer.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

*peeks into shiny new thread…*

*sees a BATS vs. TWS discussion…*

LOLNOPE!

Yup. Waiting for C Lee or Spider-Fan to make it all go away.

 

[CoherentChaos]

It's because the quality of the movie doesn't quite sink in the first time you watch it. At least for me. It came out at a time when everyone was hyped off of iron man and tdk, which were two sides of the same coin, (one being more serious, the other more fun) and people were expecting more of the same, even though the hero was totally different. Instead of a guy taking the on the world head on we got a more personal journey of a man hiding from the world and what he has to give up to stay hidden. A bit more mature IMO.and the action only gets better with repeat viewings.

I like CA:TWS a bit better though, because I feel it's both instantly enjoyable and better over time. in this movie it's still him taking on the world, but he's a bit less sure of himself because he feels like an outsider still trying to figure out how to relate to everyone around him. This makes him a more courageous hero because he doesn't hesitate to do what he feels needs to be done dispute his self doubt. While he might come across as stuck in his ways to some viewers cap isn't a true narcissist like batman or tony. Which makes the viewers better able to relate to the character.

Oh the quality of TIH is evident. In fact, every scene leading up to the bottling plant Hulk-out felt like it belonged in some art house indie film. Add to that the somewhat redundant, but very humanizing deleted scenes

I think the problem is that those qualities don't sell well. Ang's Hulk had those qualities up to 11 and flopped because of it. People apparently got bored of it easily. What Hulk apparently needs in order to have a successful franchise is to have fun, well paced movies. I think that can be achieved without sacrificing too much of the soul however. Just look at TWS, how it deals with serious issues, and even has a stoic, incorruptible protagonist, yet manages to be a huge blockbuster hit, and as you said, part of a more enjoyable movie.

That being said, your analysis of Steve as a protagonist is rather spot on. I almost wonder if the GA would connect with Bruce more if he too were a courageous hero despite his self doubts. No more running, no more being afraid. He still has to be careful, and is riddled with self doubt, but I think if he were portrayed as being much more proactive than reactive super hero, he could carry a financially successful solo movie.

 

[Suzanne78]

I don't know if this was posted (and… um, fair warning, there is a lot of comparison of Cap to other non-DC heroes), but it does expound on the points being made above, i.e. what makes Captain America an appealing hero, and what the Vulture article published last week gets wrong -- the Vulture thing posited that Cap could only be interesting if he was a jerk. So basically, if he was Millar's Ult. Cap.

The Escapist's response: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/11264-Captain-America-Vs-The-Tyranny-Of-Dark

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I hate Ult. Cap. Not just because he's a jerk but because he's everything a lot of people mistake 616 and even movie Cap for.

 

[Infinity9999x]

It wasn't really directed at your post specifically, but the other preceeding posts, probably more in the other thread.

I think the discussion limited to TWS is totally fine. I just saw the ton of TDK posts and was like…. whhhhhhhhy LOL!

But in this instance, solely in regards to the TWS discussion, I agree with those who say the MCU has established a certain tech-based society, with SHIELD and Stark. For me, it didn't stretch credulity for Falcon to use a jet-pack wing flying mechanism. It also didn't stretch credulity with Nat's face-changing tech or Fury's tunnel torch thingy.

That's all I got for this discussion

Agreed. I don't need explanations for any of those gadgets either. It would be like wanting an in-depth explanation of every one of James Bond's gadgets. I know that he's a spy in a world where these cool gadgets can be made. That's all I need to know. I don't need to know why each specific one was made, what the logic behind them was ect.

 

[Suzanne78]

I hate Ult. Cap. Not just because he's a jerk but because he's everything a lot of people mistake 616 and even movie Cap for.

Right. Millar's Cap isn't really interesting for me. Personally, I love that movie (and 616) Cap is such a decent guy -- not racist, not sexist, not completely immersed in jingoism -- because, honestly, it makes him a hero for all, for everyone all over the world. This is exactly how I see Supes too. Both are special individuals, powerful beings, constantly striving to do the right thing.

They're both so endearing to me for that very reason.

 

[Suzanne78]

Agreed. I don't need explanations for any of those gadgets either. It would be like wanting an in-depth explanation of every one of James Bond's gadgets. I know that he's a spy in a world where these cool gadgets can be made. That's all I need to know. I don't need to know why each specific one was made, what the logic behind them was ect.

I think it helps that all the advanced tech stuff looks pretty uniform and consistent as well. On AoS and the IM movies, as well as Fury's Car in TWS and Pierce's computer wall, it all has the similar transparent glow (the bluish-green with a little bit of color mixed in…) that Tony's AI had in the very first IM movie, so for me, that really set the stage for the things that would come in future movies.

Also, I know it's a point of consternation for some, but having things based on some sort of Stark Industries arc reactor tech or Stark Industries itself (isn't that who made Falcon's jetpack) allows the audience to handwave much of the implausible stuff. Not everyone, for sure, as The Guard demonstrates, but I do think as a device it works really well. Sure it runs the risk of having people tire of Tony Stark but it helps keep the tech aspect of the Marvel Studio movies on an even keel and thus the movies don't get bogged down with exposition that takes away from the stories or the character.

 

[PacificBoy]

I think they went about it all wrong. I think the seeds for something really interesting were there with Falcon, and they missed their opportunity to capitalize on relevant themes.

I'm curious to know what relevant themes you think can be explored through a more elaborate characterization of the Falcon exosuit.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

Ahhh...this brings back memories of when The Avengers just came out and everybody was enjoying the succes...

And then come 'those people'that try to convince you either that the movie was overrated...or that it has bigger issues that we just refused to acknowledged

Especially wen compared to a certain 'cinematic masterpiece'that shall not be named...

 

[The Guard]

I'm curious to know what relevant themes you think can be explored through a more elaborate characterization of the Falcon exosuit.

Not just the suit...Falcon himself.

 

[Tony Stark]

Ahhh...this brings back memories of when The Avengers just came out and everybody was enjoying the succes...

And then come 'those people'that try to convince you either that the movie was overrated...or that it has bigger issues that we just refused to acknowledged

Especially wen compared to a certain 'cinematic masterpiece'that shall not be named...

Pretty much, the trolling is reaching peak levels about now.

 

[PacificBoy]

Not just the suit...Falcon himself.

Ah ok, similar question though: What relevant themes do you think Falcon and his suit can explore?

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

The problem was previously released films were always being brought up and compared to a new film and to feel special about the new film, the old films are being belittled, being called overrated.

 

[Suzanne78]

Addressed to The Guard:

Given that they explored Falcon as a war vet/PTSD survivor/counselor who lost his own wingman and connected with Steve in that fashion, I'm not sure what else you'd want the film to explore. TWS used its 130 mins. quite effectively, IMO. A great balance of character moments and development and action. The Steve and Sam bond was one highlight. My opinion, of course.

But I'm kind of at a loss at what other themes they could've explored with Falcon that was relevant to the Winter Soldier story and to Steve Rogers' development.

The problem was previously released films were always being brought up and compared to a new film and to feel special about the new film, the old films are being called overrated, etc.

Conversely, people bring up older films to discredit the accomplishments of a new film. It, unfortunately, works both directions.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Backthread and read how this whole discussion started, and tell me who lit the fuse.