The Dark Knight Chris Nolan needs to step up the action.

[explode7]

Yes Bale lost to Adam West. That sucks. Bale got squashed by overhead lights.

 

[Jack Napier]

Did you really want to see him wake up, get his bag, be escourted out of the prison guided into a truck, drive several miles and then be pushed out?

No, but some of the scenery changes were really abrupt like that. It feels stilted sometimes.

 

[xxshady]

No, but some of the scenery changes were really abrupt like that. It feels stilted sometimes.

Not really.

 

[GEDRedemption]

The fighting in kill bill vol.2 had alot of impact it made me say "DANM" that was crazy I really hope Nolan fixes this problem. I had no problem with the batmobile chase scene but I believed he could of done it better like make a helicopter blow up or something.The batchase scene that I hated the most was the part where Batman turned off his lights on the batmobile and the helicopter lost visual I said to myself "What kind of police helicopter doesn't have nightvision". Seriously that part was lame, Batman Begins is bad ass and is the best superhero movie ever but in terms of action and logic in some cases it fails in comparison to x-men 2 or hell even spiderman.

It's the Batmobile that's why, made by Wayne Industries. Intended for use with the military. It's pretty logical to assume with night vision it'd be impossible to see.

 

[FVD]

Is Celebrity Deathmatch still going?

Anyway I like the action just as it is. But if the editing can be touched up a little then that'll be fine.

 

[Eros]

im still not sure how Batman beat Razz on the train. Nolan films the fight scene like some kind of big confuseing orge. I can't enjoy Batman, unless i see him fight. Batman and Robin had superior fight scene. If a kid goes to see the sequel, they won't know what the hell is going on.

 

[ad101867]

FOR THE RECORD: I love Batman Begins; one of my fave all-time films. That doesn't mean, however, that the sequels couldn't stand some improvements. I get a kick out of how a number of BB fans continue to defend poor shooting and editing when it comes to the fight scenes. All you're doing is justifying it after the fact. If comic-books were drawn that way, nobody would buy them.

you cant see whats happening? you should check that with the doctor, because i could see fine.

No, you couldn't. I flat-out do not believe you were able to discern particular keysi fight-moves in those scenes, other than the odd kick or chop - but nothing that really gave you any clear idea of the work that went into the keysi fight-method choreography.

And even if you could see it, that's no help to the overwhelming majority of viewers who could not see enough of the choreography to appreciate it.

I'm asking WHY you missed the first half of the movie showing him be a badass.

What Batman fan is going to be satisfied with any fight scenes involving Bruce Wayne when he's still in training to become the Bat? Whatever happened in the first half of BB, that's hardly an excuse for lousy fight scenes thereafter. That's like saying, "Well, the first half of my screenplay is good, so I won't bother writing a good plotline for the second half."

[Majik1387's] point in their previous post was that we dont know if Batman is a badass fighter because we never saw him fight.

Well, of course we know he's a great fighter. But knowing it in your mind isn't the same as seeing it and being entertained by it. That's like saying, "Well, we know Superman can fly, so who cares if the flying scenes are lousy." You still want to see superb special effects on the flying scenes in a Superman flick. Same goes for Batman's fighting prowess; you already know he has it, but you want to see it, not just know about it.

In BB, the story sometimes was being told too fast, and I didn't like it at first but through repeat viewings I got used to it.

It was indeed very fast-paced, but they had a lot of ground to cover. I imagine TDK won't be as fast-paced, because it won't cover as long a timespan.

I can understand folks not liking the fight sequence style, as it is one that isn't common in films and folks may just want the regular fashion.

On the contrary - it is increasingly common in action movies nowadays. Most filmmakers currently are too lazy to showcase superb fight choreography, and most fight scenes in most action flicks now are closely shot and choppily edited.

Nolan's reasoning was that in order for this fighting style to be believed, there needed to be a technique used that nobody has ever seen before.

No problem with that reasoning. The problem is that the audience was never given a good look at the Keysi Fighting Method. Any choreography at all - or no choreography - could have been used in BB, and we never would have known the difference because of the way it was shot and edited.

Chris Nolan bypassed these issues of choreography filmed almost non stop and created a style in which the fighting looked like hes hitting 3 people at once.

If that's the case, then this effect required only close camera angles and fast editing. It didn't require Keysi choreography. So what was the point of hiring Keysi fighters to create the choreography? If you're a filmmaker and you select a particular form of fighting to be in your movie, then how about letting your audience see the uniqueness of that fight form?

And to this day most of the fighting in Batman Begins doesnt look the slightest choreographed now does it?

Nobody can tell because nobody can get a good look at it.

he used the camera to make it look like something from a live camera or such

No he didn't. A live view could still have been a farther-back and wider view. Having it closeup and choppy doesn't make it look more "live." In fact, mimicking a live view would require having virtually no editing at all. Instead, the BB fight scenes were over-edited. That's not like a live view whatsoever.

There are small mind tricks directors like this use to sell the ideas and while it may not make sense to you, this type of instinct is necessary.

"Small mind tricks." Yeah, whatever, dude. You can't tell me there's any difference between the fight scenes in BB and the fight scenes in films where most people criticize the director as a lousy action director. I guess you must praise the fight scenes in Elektra, then, right? Riiiiiight.

I have made this point repeatedly: you cannot justify the poor fight scenes in BB, for the simple reason that they don't look any different from crappy fight scenes in other films that most viewers admit look lousy. You're only justifying it cuz you like BB for other reasons and you want to always defend it rather than be objective. If you took these same fight scenes and substituted Catwoman for Batman, and put them in the Catwoman movie, you'd be criticizing them along with everyone else. It wouldn't even occur to you to defend them.

I would think overchoreographed type of scenes would be quite phoney in this respect. Thats how I see it.

Buddy, we can't even see if these fights were choreographed at all. The shooting and editing style do not allow us to judge the choreography because we can't get a good enough look at it. What this means is that even if they were "over"choreographed, you wouldn't be able to tell.

I had no problem with the batmobile chase scene

This is a good comparison because it shows that Nolan can direct good action scenes - just not fight scenes, apparently. (Or maybe he can but hasn't shown it yet; maybe he'll show it in the sequel.) The Tumbler scenes were perfect.

they were going for the "bad guy" perspective of this, being right up next to Batman and being helpless because he's so fast and strong.

I didn't see any bad guy's perspective. If we were going to be shown the bad guys' perspective, we'd see all of Batman's kicks and punches coming right at the camera. The camera would have acted as the bad guys' eyes. But that's not what we saw; most shots were from the side. So that wasn't the bad guys' perspective.

 

[xxshady]

FOR THE RECORD: I love Batman Begins; one of my fave all-time films. That doesn't mean, however, that the sequels couldn't stand some improvements. I get a kick out of how a number of BB fans continue to defend poor shooting and editing when it comes to the fight scenes. All you're doing is justifying it after the fact. If comic-books were drawn that way, nobody would buy them.



No, you couldn't. I flat-out do not believe you were able to discern particular keysi fight-moves in those scenes, other than the odd kick or chop - but nothing that really gave you any clear idea of the work that went into the keysi fight-method choreography.

And even if you could see it, that's no help to the overwhelming majority of viewers who could not see enough of the choreography to appreciate it.



What Batman fan is going to be satisfied with any fight scenes involving Bruce Wayne when he's still in training to become the Bat? Whatever happened in the first half of BB, that's hardly an excuse for lousy fight scenes thereafter. That's like saying, "Well, the first half of my screenplay is good, so I won't bother writing a good plotline for the second half."



Well, of course we know he's a great fighter. But knowing it in your mind isn't the same as seeing it and being entertained by it. That's like saying, "Well, we know Superman can fly, so who cares if the flying scenes are lousy." You still want to see superb special effects on the flying scenes in a Superman flick. Same goes for Batman's fighting prowess; you already know he has it, but you want to see it, not just know about it.



It was indeed very fast-paced, but they had a lot of ground to cover. I imagine TDK won't be as fast-paced, because it won't cover as long a timespan.



On the contrary - it is increasingly common in action movies nowadays. Most filmmakers currently are too lazy to showcase superb fight choreography, and most fight scenes in most action flicks now are closely shot and choppily edited.



No problem with that reasoning. The problem is that the audience was never given a good look at the Keysi Fighting Method. Any choreography at all - or no choreography - could have been used in BB, and we never would have known the difference because of the way it was shot and edited.



If that's the case, then this effect required only close camera angles and fast editing. It didn't require Keysi choreography. So what was the point of hiring Keysi fighters to create the choreography? If you're a filmmaker and you select a particular form of fighting to be in your movie, then how about letting your audience see the uniqueness of that fight form?



Nobody can tell because nobody can get a good look at it.



No he didn't. A live view could still have been a farther-back and wider view. Having it closeup and choppy doesn't make it look more "live." In fact, mimicking a live view would require having virtually no editing at all. Instead, the BB fight scenes were over-edited. That's not like a live view whatsoever.



"Small mind tricks." Yeah, whatever, dude. You can't tell me there's any difference between the fight scenes in BB and the fight scenes in films where most people criticize the director as a lousy action director. I guess you must praise the fight scenes in Elektra, then, right? Riiiiiight.

I have made this point repeatedly: you cannot justify the poor fight scenes in BB, for the simple reason that they don't look any different from crappy fight scenes in other films that most viewers admit look lousy. You're only justifying it cuz you like BB for other reasons and you want to always defend it rather than be objective. If you took these same fight scenes and substituted Catwoman for Batman, and put them in the Catwoman movie, you'd be criticizing them along with everyone else. It wouldn't even occur to you to defend them.



Buddy, we can't even see if these fights were choreographed at all. The shooting and editing style do not allow us to judge the choreography because we can't get a good enough look at it. What this means is that even if they were "over"choreographed, you wouldn't be able to tell.



This is a good comparison because it shows that Nolan can direct good action scenes - just not fight scenes, apparently. (Or maybe he can but hasn't shown it yet; maybe he'll show it in the sequel.) The Tumbler scenes were perfect.



I didn't see any bad guy's perspective. If we were going to be shown the bad guys' perspective, we'd see all of Batman's kicks and punches coming right at the camera. The camera would have acted as the bad guys' eyes. But that's not what we saw; most shots were from the side. So that wasn't the bad guys' perspective.

You sir, are an ignoramus.

Please tell me how the fighting scenes are poor? Batman was much stealthier in BB. Just cuz he doesnt go up front and smacks people in the head it doesnt mean its a bad fight scene. I dont see the problem with him engulfing people in his cape and owning them? And the fight scene that was chopped up was intended. It doesnt matter if you think it was poorly edited because it was MEANT to be that way, they OBVIOUSLY could have edited another way. It shows that Batman is pantherlike and strikes at different times.

 

[E-Mack]

You sir, are an ignoramus.

Please tell me how the fighting scenes are poor? Batman was much stealthier in BB. Just cuz he doesnt go up front and smacks people in the head it doesnt mean its a bad fight scene.

Well I don't really see how anyone can watch BB, and leave out of there saying, "man those were some great fight scenes!"

That was his point. By the way it was edited, intentional or not, there was nothing there to judge. It's like going to a rap concert and all you hear are love songs. There's just nothing to base your opinions on.

Nolan should pan the camera out more. And imo, ditch the Keysi style. It sounded good on paper, but Bats looked horrible doing the moves from the behind-the-scenes look. All it had Bats do is put his hands on his head and start twisting with a lil' bit of punches and kicks here and there, lol. Gritty is what we're looking for here. Realistic, but also visually appealing. Bourne Identity took that style to a T.

 

[Darknightnomis]

No, no, no.

The great thing about BB was that there wasn't something blowing up every scene after characters had a conversation. The movie had some serious depth to it, with a sprinkly of action, and the action was BADASS.

Certain films, like X3, seem almost embarassed to have serious dialogue. For instance, once characters started having conversations that related to the story, something would come crashing through a wall, or an explosion would take place, and the moment of storytelling would lost.


Don't do that. Keep up the good work, Nolan.

Amen. You save me the time from writing this.

 

[Ronny Shade]

God, not this again.

The action in Begins was perfect.

Also, I don't see Nolan changing his style because some fanboys whined about it, so I doubt he will change it, which is good.

Now silencize yourself

 

[Ronny Shade]

Well I don't really see how anyone can watch BB, and leave out of there saying, "man those were some great fight scenes!"

That was his point. By the way it was edited, intentional or not, there was nothing there to judge. It's like going to a rap concert and all you hear are love songs. There's just nothing to base your opinions on.

Nolan should pan the camera out more. And imo, ditch the Keysi style. It sounded good on paper, but Bats looked horrible doing the moves from the behind-the-scenes look. All it had Bats do is put his hands on his head and start twisting with a lil' bit of punches and kicks here and there, lol. Gritty is what we're looking for here. Realistic, but also visually appealing. Bourne Identity took that style to a T.

You know what I did after I saw Batman Begins?


I left the theater saying "man, those were some great fight scenes"

 

[Darknightnomis]

I just saw 'Batman Begins' again last night for the.....I don't know how many times now, but It's in the high 100s but I digress... but the one thing that always amazed me why I LOVE this movie (now my favorite) is becasue it's not an over the top "action packed" superhero movie.

Not that I don't love those type movies every now and then, but what makes 'Batman Begins' so special is that when there is action it's dosen't feel like it's rushed or forced, it feels like It belongs in the scenes where Nolan used it.

And the reason I think that is so is becasue the majority of the movie is so intelligently . It is really is one smartly made movie. it' stimulate your mind and intrigues moreso than just blowing things up for no other reason thatn to do so.

You want mindless "over the top action" in a Batman movie go see 'Batman and Robin'.

 

[The Sage]

I think the second one should have better action, not more acton. I know a lot of you say "oh well the reason for the fighting in the first one was because of Keysi and they wanted to show how brutal Batman is." Well there are ways of doing that and actually SHOWING what he is doing. It makes total sense for Batman to dismantle some thugs without us seeing it, but Batman FIGHTS too... always has always will. There needs to be some badass fighting in the next one... not wire-fu, or overly choreographed nonesense but the same hard nosed fighting- Just let us see it better this time.

The audience should get to SEE why Batman is so superior in combat, SEE why he can jump through the ceiling of a room with 12 guys in it and just wipe the floor with them. Batman (even without being flashly) should be able to do some very impressive fight stuff and we need to see it (in addition to the 'whoa, what the crap is going on?' stuff).

None of the fighting in the first one had me thinking to myself "whoa, this is one of the coolest fights i've seen in a while". Brutal and stealthy doesnt mean "edit the hell out of it to the point where we just see glimpses of fists and shoulders and cant really get a good idea of whats happening."

Some of you mention that if you watch the special features you'd understand. Well, I think that the fighting actually looked great when the stunt men were doing it because you could actually see it. All of the work and choreography Bale talks about doing isnt really evident in the fight scenes because they were shot in a way that obscured a lot of what was going on.

 

[blind_fury]

You know what I did after I saw Batman Begins?


I left the theater saying "man, those were some great fight scenes"

So when you watch the fight scenes on dvd you rewind them to watch them over and over again? I seriously doubt it.

Admit it, they sucked. You can't tell if someone is getting puched in the face or kicked in the gut. It's actually fustrating to watch..

 

[Christopher Nolan]

I think the second one should have better action, not more acton. I know a lot of you say "oh well the reason for the fighting in the first one was because of Keysi and they wanted to show how brutal Batman is." Well there are ways of doing that and actually SHOWING what he is doing. It makes total sense for Batman to dismantle some thugs without us seeing it, but Batman FIGHTS too... always has always will. There needs to be some badass fighting in the next one... not wire-fu, or overly choreographed nonesense but the same hard nosed fighting- Just let us see it better this time.

The audience should get to SEE why Batman is so superior in combat, SEE why he can jump through the ceiling of a room with 12 guys in it and just wipe the floor with them. Batman (even without being flashly) should be able to do some very impressive fight stuff and we need to see it (in addition to the 'whoa, what the crap is going on?' stuff).

None of the fighting in the first one had me thinking to myself "whoa, this is one of the coolest fights i've seen in a while". Brutal and stealthy doesnt mean "edit the hell out of it to the point where we just see glimpses of fists and shoulders and cant really get a good idea of whats happening."

Some of you mention that if you watch the special features you'd understand. Well, I think that the fighting actually looked great when the stunt men were doing it because you could actually see it. All of the work and choreography Bale talks about doing isnt really evident in the fight scenes because they were shot in a way that obscured a lot of what was going on.

Jep, you're right.

 

[Substance D]

why didn't you make this a poll?

and yes, i agree. TDK needs better action scenes. Come on people, it is possible for TDK to retain the great character interaction and drama and have clear, thrilling action scenes at the same time. Get your psuedointellectual heads out of your asses.

 

[XCharlieX]

No he didn't.

Yes he did

"Small mind tricks." Yeah, whatever, dude.

Pretty much how i feel about this conversation now. I really am tired of debating. If youre right, so am I :

 

[fabman]

blind fury: yes, i've enjoyed the fight scenes in batman begins and watch them over and over again! I admit it, they are GREAT!

SMACK! (into ya face)

why can't ya respect other opinions - if ronny enjoyed them like i did, he enjoyed them. there's nothing to discuss about opinions...

 

[Hunter Rider]

The fight scene's in BB were ok but to fast and the camera needs pulling back IMO,i want to see a fight not just body parts

As far as the action in TDK goes,there will be more as he is Batman from the start and he's in the middle of a crime war,what i want though is for the action to serve the narrative and not just be there for the sake of it

 

[Cinemaman]

The fight scene's in BB were ok but to fast and the camera needs pulling back IMO,i want to see a fight not just body parts

As far as the action in TDK goes,there will be more as he is Batman from the start and he's in the middle of a crime war,what i want though is for the action to serve the narrative and not just be there for the sake of it

You are totaly right.

I think this time there will be mopre action and Batman's scenes.

We will see more Batman, because there is Gang War stuff.

 

[The Sage]

The fight scene's in BB were ok but to fast and the camera needs pulling back IMO,i want to see a fight not just body parts

As far as the action in TDK goes,there will be more as he is Batman from the start and he's in the middle of a crime war,what i want though is for the action to serve the narrative and not just be there for the sake of it

My question is how will they choreograph the Batman/Joker showdown, if there is one. I doubt Joker will fear Batman, and Joker's not an expert fighter. Might end up being a new method.

 

[fabman]

the action serves the narrative in batman begins...

 

[Hunter Rider]

the action serves the narrative in batman begins...

I never said it didn't

 

[Hunter Rider]

My question is how will they choreograph the Batman/Joker showdown, if there is one. I doubt Joker will fear Batman, and Joker's not an expert fighter. Might end up being a new method.

That's an interesting point,physically Joker has never been a threat to batman he has to outsmart him,i like the idea of luring Batman into a fun house at an abandoned fairground for the showdown,with Batman having to avoid traps to get to The Joker while he taunts him,the fight itself should be short and sweet atop a moving rollercoaster with Joker armed with a knife and Batman disarming him and taking him out with precision