Christian Bale v.s. Michael Keaton

[Crook]

The way Keaton played it though, it was more faithful to the character from the comics. His Wayne himself didn't know what to think about what he was doing, he just knew that he had to. He tried to fight it, but he couldn't, it was simply the way it was. And that's all the explanation he gave, no rationalizing, no big speeches, he simply WAS Batman.

Well, we can't exactly determine that considering Burton took the Bible method with his Batman and completely glossed over his path to the cape and cowl.

Nolan's Bruce didn't know what to do either. He was completely lost for the better part of his teen years, and ended up soaking in the life of a criminal in his international travels. Why? Well, we don't get a very in-depth explanation. He just did it to understand. But for no particular greater purpose. It wasn't until through Ra's guidance that he found his way.

Also I feel Keaton did a better Bruce Wayne. It may not have been exactly like in the comics, but I feel it was more realistic, something which Nolan is after all trying add to his interpretation. Bale's public Wayne was to broad, to over the top, more a caricature of a man. If I saw Wayne acting like that, I'd be very suspicious, because it seams so fake. Keaton on the other hand played Wayne as a man who isn't comfortable in his own skin, like when he is Wayne, truly becomes a weakling, it's only when he is in the cave or in the suit that he is truly himself. In Batman 89, Knox calls Wayne weird, but he never was suspicious of him. I think Keaton's approach was more realistic. Imagine if Bill Gates acted like Bale does, I believe people would definitely think he was putting on an act.
Sorry this was so long, but I felt this debate/squabble needed a concise argument. Thanks for your time.

Can't agree with this either. Surely we can all attest that people handle death differently. Some will be severely affected psychologically, some can make it out ok. Keaton and Bale's approaches are two polar opposites, but lie on the same spectrum nonetheless.

You've already described Keaton perfectly, so I'll move onto Bale. Nolan took the lore from a more modest perspective; Bruce isn't a man who's psychologically tortured, rather an everyman who has to deal with extraordinary circumstances. Nolan's avoided the god-like talents of Batman. It explains why we've yet to see an overly intelligent Bruce. He's a jack-of-all-trades, master of nothing. When he's faced with the likes of Joker, you could see the toll it has taken on him physically. As any regular man should, it tires him out to the point where his back is against the wall. Compare that to Keaton who is a stone-cold rock 24/7. This is a man who's already been pushed to the limits, will look you straight in the eye, and push back. Hard.

As for the public Wayne, the over-the-top personality that is the Public Bruce is entirely in line with that faux image Nolan tries to convey: a carefree, spoonfed, billionaire playboy. This isn't exactly a newfound caricature. Look in the tabloids or your news, it's full of conceited jackasses who freely display their self-entitlement. Bale's interpretation could easily be lost in a room crowded with them.

 

[El Payaso]

I don't entirely agree. Bruce Wayne is a millionaire playboy to Gotham City. He's supposed to be portrayed like that. The comics do it. BTAS did it.

That's why circa 81 said "It may not have been exactly like in the comics."

He's a young man, with a ridiculous amount of money. I fail to see why him living an extravagant lifestyle is so suspicious.

I don't think it is.

But as a celebrity who loves to be seen, he is much more vulnerable to be followed and to be detected. He'd be probably missed at a party when he doesn't go or he suddenly leaves and, coincidentally, Batman is seen somewhere else.

I never saw Keaton's Wayne as someone who seemed uncomfortable. Not that we saw much of him in social situations. The only real example being the party he threw in Batman '89, and he never seemed awkward or uncomfortable at that. Only ever so slightly when he first met Vicki when she asked who was Bruce Wayne, and I think that was because he was smitten with her.

He was weird some times. Not only when he said he wasn't sure who Bruce Wayne was, but also when he strarted that conversation with Knox and vicky not introducing himself at the beginning, like he wanted to know what they thought about him before revealing his identity.

He also was weird when having dinner in that big hall with Vicky, at the other extreme of the table - like he was uncomfortable with other people's proximity - with one hand under the table unable to start a proper conversation until Alfred broke the ice and he had drunk a little.

Then we have the day when he wanted to go to leave roses for his parents and he was completely uncomfortable with telling Vicky the truth (even when he noticed she liked him and they had just shared bed), so he had to invent a lie right at the moment.

Which one are you referring to? Keaton or Bale, as they both revealed their secret identities to someone.

Kilmer did it also.

 

[ALP]

I've got to agree with Joker on this one.

I fail to see how Keaton was closer to the comics, just because he didn't have a rational reason to be Batman. He "simply was." That's more like sloppy storytelling.

You know how Keaton's Wayne was also further away from the comics? The fact that he showed little to no family or personal connection to Gotham City. Keaton's Wayne was essentially this rich hermit that no one even knew about. Strangely enough he threw a black and white ball at the beginning of B'89 yet it seemed to be a complete throwaway scene. Just a scene to introduce him in an elegant manner. Nothing else in the scene served much purpose. But like I was saying, Keaton's Wayne just happened to be loaded with old family money. He had the ability to be a weird hermit who didn't talk much even when he was out of the suit.

On the other hand, Bale's Wayne had a massive personal and family connection to Gotham. His father did huge things for the city, they were the most prestigious, rich, and trustable people in Gotham. Therefore everyone in the city knew who they were. Bale's Bruce Wayne does not have the luxury to be a wild eyed hermit who never comes out of Wayne Manor. THAT would have look suspicious. And like the comics, Nolan's Bruce Wayne had to deal with Wayne Enterprise(completely missing in Burton's Batman). He at least must make public appearances and board meetings to the company if he wants to appear as a good company president.

Notice how no one was even familiar with Keaton's Wayne. Knox did not recognize him and Vale did not even recognize him...despite that fact that he was a reporter and she a journalist!!! They did not even know that his parents had been murdered. On the other hand, Bale's Wayne was a public figure, everyone knew that his parents died because they were practically the saviors of the city. Keaton's Wayne and his family were incidentally just another random rich family in Gotham thus that allowed Keaton to be mysterious even as Bruce Wayne while Bale's Wayne was someone who was always in the public eye. Bale's Wayne was always in the newspapers while Keaton obviously was never pictured in a newspaper...or the one of the world's most famous photojournalists who wants the best scoops in Gotham would have probably known what he looked like.

 

[The Joker]

That's why circa 81 said "It may not have been exactly like in the comics."

Right. I was enforcing the point that Bruce Wayne is not a character who comes across as being uncomfortable in his own skin to the public.

I don't think it is.

But as a celebrity who loves to be seen, he is much more vulnerable to be followed and to be detected. He'd be probably missed at a party when he doesn't go or he suddenly leaves and, coincidentally, Batman is seen somewhere else.

Which is why he has Alfred to make up excuses for him when someone calls for him, and he's not available. He is the head of a huge financial empire. Being called away unexpectedly is perfectly normal.

It is far more suspicious for a hugely wealthy young man to be some kind of social recluse. People would wonder even more what is Bruce Wayne doing. A man who hides himself away from the public eye is much more open for suspicion and investigation than a man who parades himself openly on the social scene.

He was weird some times. Not only when he said he wasn't sure who Bruce Wayne was, but also when he strarted that conversation with Knox and vicky not introducing himself at the beginning, like he wanted to know what they thought about him before revealing his identity.

That's because he butted into their conversation by saying he bought that piece in Japan. Then Knox asked him who he was. It's not like they carried on a conversation and only found out mid way or at the end of it who he really was.

He also was weird when having dinner in that big hall with Vicky, at the other extreme of the table - like he was uncomfortable with other people's proximity - with one hand under the table unable to start a proper conversation until Alfred broke the ice and he had drunk a little.

I think that was just his lack of experience in having a date over to Wayne Manor. He was more than happy to leave the room when Vicki asked him if he liked eating in there. He even cracked a joke when she asked him. "You know I don't think I've ever been in this room before".

They also must have hit it off pretty well if he asked her over for dinner, and she agreed.

Then we have the day when he wanted to go to leave roses for his parents and he was completely uncomfortable with telling Vicky the truth (even when he noticed she liked him and they had just shared bed), so he had to invent a lie right at the moment.

Oh come on, man, that's perfectly normal for many people. Not everyone likes talking about the death of a loved one. Especially with someone they hardly know. You don't have to be socially awkward to bottle up things like that.

Kilmer did it also.

He did indeed.

 

[Ipodman]

Which one are you referring to? Keaton or Bale, as they both revealed their secret identities to someone.

Both actually... In Batman Begins Bruce had to take that two girls out on a date so to disguise his Batman life. I thought that was really well done story'wise.

Keaton's Bruce had a good scene where he tries to tell Viki his secret, but overall i think Batman Begins did the "Secret Identity" thing better.

 

[The Joker]

Keaton also took his mask off in front of Max Schreck

 

[Brother Jack]

Keaton also took his mask off in front of Max Schreck

And Catwoman (even though she already knew) and Penguin (even though he was dying).

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The best portrayal of the Batman character is in the 1989 movie. Batman was never as menacing, mysterious, heroic and just plain awe-inspiring anywhere else.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Bale's Bruce couldn't go two seconds without saying "how about that crazy Batman, that's pretty stupid, amirite?".

Yes, there were certain aspects of Bruce Bale got right. Fairly superficial ones imo. For example, he makes it pretty clear in both The Dark Knight and Batman Begins that he doesn't drink, and he's overly paranoid, both of which are qualities of the control freak that is Bruce Wayne. There biggest dilemna though was the shoehorned a whole lot of rhetoric onto the character that's completely abscent in the comics.

Bale's Bruce is a Bruce Wayne who desperately wants to be Bruce Wayne, and only uses Batman as a symbol to inspire. That's not what Batman is though. Bruce doesn't want to be anyone but Batman. In Batman: Fugritive, for example, he toys with the idea of abandoning the Bruce Wayne persona all together. He is suspicious that it is holding him back. Also, while both are control freaks, Batman in the comics is a control freak not because he wants to keep his identity secret and protect his friends (that's Spider-Man), he's a control freak because by his metric "[the world only makes sense] when you force it to". He wants to control crime, wants to control it so much that little boys and little girls won't ever have to lose their parents to random criminals. An insane goal by anyone's metric.

Moreover, I think it's incorrect to think about Bruce Wayne (the persona) as a Paris Hilton, he's not. Bruce Wayne is more like Warren Buffett, he's known to the public because of his company, but he's not a personality. There will never be a reality show starring Bruce Wayne, and frankly he's more apt to avoid the public spotlight than seek it.

How much do you know about Bill Gates honestly? Not much I'd imagine. Certainly you can read what he wants you to know, but he's not a personality, he's just a very rich man whose name exists because of his wealth. Sleeping in meetings, absconding with Ballerinas, throwing everyone out and then "accidentally" burning down your house is a great way to call attention to yourself. Not deflect it.

 

[elgaz]

I loved both portrayals in different ways. Asides from the name of the character they're playing, you'd be hard pressed to find them similar in any way - they're as different as the two portrayals of the Joker by Nicholson and Ledger.

 

[Original Spawn]

Keaton is definitively the best batman but christian bale is the best Bruce Wayne

 

[ALP]

Moreover, I think it's incorrect to think about Bruce Wayne (the persona) as a Paris Hilton, he's not. Bruce Wayne is more like Warren Buffett, he's known to the public because of his company, but he's not a personality. There will never be a reality show starring Bruce Wayne, and frankly he's more apt to avoid the public spotlight than seek it.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but this part I did want to address. You are talking about the comics right now I think becasue in the Nolan movies atleast, Bruce IS a personality. Just as how you mentioned all of those things, "absconding with Ballerinas, burning his house." Those are thigns that create a personality. In the new films at least, the best comparison would not be Bill gates or Buffet, but Donald Trump. He's the one always in the newspapers.

How much do you know about Bill Gates honestly? Not much I'd imagine. Certainly you can read what he wants you to know, but he's not a personality, he's just a very rich man whose name exists because of his wealth. Sleeping in meetings, absconding with Ballerinas, throwing everyone out and then "accidentally" burning down your house is a great way to call attention to yourself. Not deflect it.

Doing all of those antics may call attention to you, but it really throws people in a loop to because that's not how he really is. He's the last person you'd suspect to be Batman. In The Long Halloween the police believe Bruce is in cahoots with Falcone because he was at his party, seen talking with him, etc. They even arrest him at one point. When you're associating with the wrong people and pulling off crazy antics, absolutely no one suspects you of being the good guy.

"I was trying to make the light, who's in the van"
"You don't watch the news much do you mr wayne?"

Not in a million years would Gordon suspect a billioniare airhead to be Batman.

 

[ALP]

But as far as Keaton, as I said before, he was even further from the comics when it came to his Wayne. He didn't really have a "persona," he was just uncomfortable Bruce Wayne. He was hardly even a known name. The only thing to suggest he was was that he threw an evening ball in the beginning of the first film. He was just a reclusive man living off old family money. No one knew about his parents death, no one knew anything at all about Wayne, for crying out loud, they did not even know what he looked like! Nothing in Burton's films suggest that the Wayne's were the first family of Gotham, instead they were just random rich people. However, I did feel the essence that is important from the comic books was there with Keaton's Wayne. His complete obsession and compulsion with the thing he had to become.

The one instance where Keaton feels more like the comics is that his Batman felt infinite, as if he was destined to always do it. We had this discussion in the TDK sequel board but Bale's Wayne is not like that at all. His Batman is finite and he feels rather willing to give up being Batman when he feels the time is right. He says this very thing in TDK. To Keaton's Wayne, Batman was his life and his only life. I don't get that same feeling with Bale, Bale's Wayne is only being Batman when he has to be.

only pointing out the discrepancies.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but this part I did want to address. You are talking about the comics right now I think becasue in the Nolan movies atleast, Bruce IS a personality. Just as how you mentioned all of those things, "absconding with Ballerinas, burning his house." Those are thigns that create a personality. In the new films at least, the best comparison would not be Bill gates or Buffet, but Donald Trump. He's the one always in the newspapers.

My point though is, this is not really true to the comics, and moreover it's not realistic. The reason Wayne acts like Paris Hilton or Donald Trump is because Nolan is tying Wayne to something in pop culture; namely, the spoiled celebrity that everyone laughs at. This isn't really "realistic" though, which ironically is what most people say Nolan is going for. Bruce Wayne would in fact deflect attention from himself by being responsible. It feeds into Dents line about "[people] knowing if he snuck out at night"

Doing all of those antics may call attention to you, but it really throws people in a loop to because that's not how he really is. He's the last person you'd suspect to be Batman. In The Long Halloween the police believe Bruce is in cahoots with Falcone because he was at his party, seen talking with him, etc. They even arrest him at one point. When you're associating with the wrong people and pulling off crazy antics, absolutely no one suspects you of being the good guy.

"I was trying to make the light, who's in the van"
"You don't watch the news much do you mr wayne?"

Not in a million years would Gordon suspect a billioniare airhead to be Batman.

Three things: In the comics Gordon knows exactly who Batman is. It's been pretty much directly stated a dozen times.

Two: In the movies, the Nolan ones, it's been alluded to, in that very scene that Gordon knows...even worse though there are a good half a dozen people in the Nolanverse who know/suspect Bruce is Batman: Rachel Dawes, his accountant, Lucius Fox, Alfred (of course), Ra's Al Ghul, Ra's Al Ghuls' agents.

Lastly, it was Bruce's antics that lead Mr. Reese to look into his double life in the first place.

 

[Brother Jack]

Three things: In the comics Gordon knows exactly who Batman is. It's been pretty much directly stated a dozen times.

No, in most story lines Gordon does not know.

Two: In the movies, the Nolan ones, it's been alluded to, in that very scene that Gordon knows...even worse though there are a good half a dozen people in the Nolanverse who know/suspect Bruce is Batman: Rachel Dawes, his accountant, Lucius Fox, Alfred (of course), Ra's Al Ghul, Ra's Al Ghuls' agents.

If anything the scene with Gordon and Bruce proves that Gordon doesn't know. There's nothing in that scene to suggest that he perceives Wayne as anything but a careless socialite. And other than Rachel and Reese (for obvious reasons) all of those people know that Batman=Bruce Wayne in the comics too. Plus in the Nolan films several of those people are dead.

Lastly, it was Bruce's antics that lead Mr. Reese to look into his double life in the first place.

Actually it was Fox making Reese run the numbers again, causing Reese to be hostile towards Fox and dig up old files (though he did generally dislike Bruce).

 

[ALP]

Yep that is correct I'm sure. Reese investigated not because Bruce was a careless socialite but b/c he noticed Batman used the tumbler and other gadgets that were specifically military sanctioned from Wayne Enterprise. I think...

And then Fox puts him in check. He says something to the effect of, "You think my boss, one of the wealthiest men in the world, is secretly fighting crime at night." Then reese realized how dumb it sounds.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

"Let me get this straight. You think, that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretley a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands? And your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck."

Fox was spelling it out for Reese, saying that if he tried to do anything bad, both Bruce Wayne and Batman would make his life hell. Reese still thinks he's Batman, but after he was almost killed multiple times and Bruce saved his life, it's safe to assume he's not squealing anytime soon.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

No, in most story lines Gordon does not know.

This is flat out wrong. Bruce even says as much in his own book. Gordon actually made a remark about it last issue ("The other Batman called me Jim" and "Bruce and I talk about once a week...we've been out of touch")

BTAS made allusions to Gordon knowing

Bruce himself mused that Perry White knew Clark's secret much like Gordon knew his during HUSH.

Gordon of course knows who Batman was in TDKR. It's explicitly stated. So in most fictions Gordon has full knowledge Bruce is Batman. If you bother to read the comics you'd know this.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Gordon can tell the difference between Bruce and Dick, but that doesn't mean he knows their identities. "The signal goes on and he shows up. That's the way it's been, that's the way it will be. Anything else about the man I couldn't tell you." Bruce unmasked in front of Gordon is No Man's Land, and Jim didn't look, because he didn't want to know. It's possible he has strong suspicions towards Bruce, but he'd rather not be 100% sure.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Gordon can tell the difference between Bruce and Dick, but that doesn't mean he knows their identities. "The signal goes on and he shows up. That's the way it's been, that's the way it will be. Anything else about the man I couldn't tell you." Bruce unmasked in front of Gordon is No Man's Land, and Jim didn't look, because he didn't want to know. It's possible he has strong suspicions towards Bruce, but he'd rather not be 100% sure.

Bruce. Said. Gordon. Knows. Several. Times.

Joker also knows.

This isn't a debate. It's long established canon

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

But has Gordon said he knows? That's a big difference. Bruce can assume all he wants, it's a matter as to whether or not Jim accepts the idea or has any clue whatsoever.

 

[ALP]

Bruce. Said. Gordon. Knows. Several. Times.

Joker also knows.

This isn't a debate. It's long established canon

Gordon is one thing. But when has it been long established that Joker knows Bruce is Batman?

 

[The Joker]

Bale's Bruce couldn't go two seconds without saying "how about that crazy Batman, that's pretty stupid, amirite?".

Exaggerate much? He said it once at the hotel dinner with Mr Earle and the other rich snobs. The only other time he mentioned Batman as at the dinner with Harvey and Rachel, where he agreed with the Russian girl that nobody appointed Batman to clean up Gotham.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Gordon is one thing. But when has it been long established that Joker knows Bruce is Batman?

There have been moments as far back as the 1980s and 1970s that suggest Joker knows Bruce is Batman, but, and this is key; many believe that while he does have knowledge Joker would never actually go after Bruce. Joker's obsession is destroying Batman, not Bruce Wayne, and because of who Joker is he implicitly understands the duality between the two. To him killing or destroying the life of Bruce Wayne would be meaningless.

Source: In "Death in the Family" Joker acknowledges Bruce Wayne in such a way that indicates he's well aware he's Batman, and that Jason Todd (his ward) is Robin. Also, in Batman R.I.P and the subsequent Batman and Robin it seems almost stupid to assume he doesn't know, considering the storyline.

Batman 663
Joker: "Why be a disfigured outcast when I can be a notorious Crime God? Why be an orphaned boy when you can be a superhero?"

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

But has Gordon said he knows? That's a big difference. Bruce can assume all he wants, it's a matter as to whether or not Jim accepts the idea or has any clue whatsoever.

As I said, if you read the last issue he tells Batman (Dick Grayson) that "Bruce and I have been out of touch" after noting to Dick that he knows the other Batman called him Jim. In addition, Gordon has run protection and deverted investigation away from Bruce Wayne in the past, to protect his alter-ego. In addition, most elseworld tales, including one dream sequence in BTAS, have had Gordon talking frankly with Bruce about his time as Batman and admitting to knowing openly. The fact that nearly every writer since the early eighties has drawn upon Gordon's understood knowledge should indicate to you that he does know and has known for a long time.

And Batman doesn't ever assume.