The Dark Knight Rises Christopher Nolan Is Doing Batman 3!!!

[The Joker]

Whats your take on the sonar scene Joker?

It was ok. Didn't love it, didn't hate it.

But I never saw it as the climax of the movie. The showdown with Batman, Two Face, and Gordon and his family, that's the climax, IMO. That's where everything comes to a head.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Thanks for the support. Not hating on the movie at all. I love TDK but that part came across a little cheesy. Smells a little like Goyer.

Yes. Everything good is done by Nolan. Everything bad is done by Goyer. Who cares if TDK wasnt written by Goyer but by the Nolan bros.
Goyer did 911!!!

 

[RustyCage]

There was nothing absurd about my original statement as redfire points out.

He didn't say anything about the sonar. Yet, at least.

If he can substantiate it (which you yourself haven't), then it won't be so absurd. But the way you went about saying it definitely warranted that response.

 

[redfirebird2008]

He didn't say anything about the sonar. Yet, at least.

If he can substantiate it (which you yourself haven't), then it won't be so absurd. But the way you went about saying it definitely warranted that response.

I mentioned the climax of the film, aka the final 30 minutes of it. That includes the sonar and other problems. The movie pretty much falls apart after the 2 hour mark.

 

[Ipodman]

I loved the Two face madness scene with Gordon's son... that was intense...

 

[Solidus]

He actually is somewhat hitting on a solid point. The climax of the film involving sonar, SWAT, and ferry boats is what cost the film a nomination. I remember Kris Tapley at InContention saying that he talked to a number of Academy voters who liked or loved the first 2 hours of it but felt that the ending killed it.

That does not say much. TDK lost the nomination because it was a comic book movie. Of course the voters are not going to flat out say why. To me the academy sometimes does not have solid reasoning for what they do. Curious Case of Benjamin Button? That was the most horribly paced movie....yet it was nominated. I doubt the sonar did that either. I mean the sonar was not bad, I never saw it is a flaw in the film. And the ferry stuff? That was the most suspenseful moment and a great Joker moment. A no win scenario that Bats had to defeat.

It did not have a traditional "resolute" ending and I think that is where some may complain but that is just the choice of the story tellers.

I mean to me the academy has lost a lot of respect from me, not for TDK being snubbed. But for Avatar being nominated, and being a high contender. The movie had a horrible story, horrible acting, horrible dialogue, and yet some how was nominated and highly considered. You look at most reviews on RottenTomatoes, even all the critics will say...yea good fun visual effect romp, horrible story. Yet some how the academy decided it would be nominated for best picture? And GG gave it best picture? To me it shows how political that stuff gets.

TDK' as a film had nothing to do with it getting snubbed. The fact that it was a comic book summer movie was the reason it got snubbed.

Of course this is my view, I just never saw the ending of TDK to be bad at all. It was well paced, and had a great "Joker game" with the ferries.

 

[Mister H.]

I mentioned the climax of the film, aka the final 30 minutes of it. That includes the sonar and other problems. The movie pretty much falls apart after the 2 hour mark.

Agreed.

This is a very common criticism folks. That anyone would call the notion absurd is-- absurd. Nearly half the people I associate with saw TDK when it was released, and in the discussions I had with the more intelligent, film-savvy people the criticisms were always the same. The movie was too long, the ferry/skyscraper sequence was cliche, and Batman's voice was silly. I agree with all of those points. I'm sure the Academy voters did as well.

It's a fine piece of cinema, a pop-art masterpiece. Until the third act.

The skyscraper/sonar sequence is so boring I usually get up and piss or grab a snack, making sure to be back in my recliner in time for the final Havey Dent scene. Joker should never have been captured. His arc in TDK should have concluded once Dent is delivered into madness. Joker's final scene should have been in the shipyard when he sets the pile of cash ablaze. The finale with Dent was perfect, but I didn't need the obligatory action movie set piece. I know, I know, Batman is an action movie, but I'm simply talking about what I would have liked to have seen.

 

[weezerspider]

That does not say much. TDK lost the nomination because it was a comic book movie. Of course the voters are not going to flat out say why. To me the academy sometimes does not have solid reasoning for what they do. Curious Case of Benjamin Button? That was the most horribly paced movie....yet it was nominated. I doubt the sonar did that either. I mean the sonar was not bad, I never saw it is a flaw in the film. And the ferry stuff? That was the most suspenseful moment and a great Joker moment. A no win scenario that Bats had to defeat.

It did not have a traditional "resolute" ending and I think that is where some may complain but that is just the choice of the story tellers.

I mean to me the academy has lost a lot of respect from me, not for TDK being snubbed. But for Avatar being nominated, and being a high contender. The movie had a horrible story, horrible acting, horrible dialogue, and yet some how was nominated and highly considered. You look at most reviews on RottenTomatoes, even all the critics will say...yea good fun visual effect romp, horrible story. Yet some how the academy decided it would be nominated for best picture? And GG gave it best picture? To me it shows how political that stuff gets.

TDK' as a film had nothing to do with it getting snubbed. The fact that it was a comic book summer movie was the reason it got snubbed.

Of course this is my view, I just never saw the ending of TDK to be bad at all. It was well paced, and had a great "Joker game" with the ferries.

Agree with everything you said

 

[TheBatman072]

[/B]

Agreed.

This is a very common criticism folks. That anyone would call the notion absurd is-- absurd. Nearly half the people I associate with saw TDK when it was released, and in the discussions I had with the more intelligent, film-savvy people the criticisms were always the same. The movie was too long, the ferry/skyscraper sequence was cliche, and Batman's voice was silly. I agree with all of those points. I'm sure the Academy voters did as well.

It's a fine piece of cinema, a pop-art masterpiece. Until the third act.

The skyscraper/sonar sequence is so boring I usually get up and piss or grab a snack, making sure to be back in my recliner in time for the final Havey Dent scene. Joker should never have been captured. His arc in TDK should have concluded once Dent is delivered into madness. Joker's final scene should have been in the shipyard when he sets the pile of cash ablaze. The finale with Dent was perfect, but I didn't need the obligatory action movie set piece. I know, I know, Batman is an action movie, but I'm simply talking about what I would have liked to have seen.

There it is again. Those anecdotes. Those "all the people I know agree with me" things.

Doesn't mean dick.

The ferry scenes were probably the MOST Batman thing I have ever seen Batman do on film. Not only save several hostages from thugs, but save them from being shot by SWAT men. And not only save the SWAT men from getting killed by thugs, but doing so AGAINST the SWAT men and gordon. While simultaneously making sure NO ONE was killed.

 

[weezerspider]

Also, I'd say the Technical climax would be when Rachel dies. The whole point is the parallel of Gotham's Dark Knight(Bruce) and Gotham's White Night(Harvey). Bruce fights crime his way, while Harvey does another. When Rachel dies, they break off. Harvey is pushed over the edge and turns into the villain. Bruce does go to extremes after Rachel's death to catch Joker(Sonar situation), but he does not cross the line from Good to Evil.

 

[weezerspider]

There it is again. Those anecdotes. Those "all the people I know agree with me" things.

Doesn't mean dick.

The ferry scenes were probably the MOST Batman thing I have ever seen Batman do on film. Not only save several hostages from thugs, but save them from being shot by SWAT men. And not only save the SWAT men from getting killed by thugs, but doing so AGAINST the SWAT men and gordon. While simultaneously making sure NO ONE was killed.

I agree. I felt this was the most "Batman" and "Comic Bookish" thing we've gotten from Nolan. Well as far as action goes. The most "Batman" scene is The interrogation scene. Priceless.t:

 

[Solidus]

[/B]

Agreed.

This is a very common criticism folks. That anyone would call the notion absurd is-- absurd. Nearly half the people I associate with saw TDK when it was released, and in the discussions I had with the more intelligent, film-savvy people the criticisms were always the same. The movie was too long, the ferry/skyscraper sequence was cliche, and Batman's voice was silly. I agree with all of those points. I'm sure the Academy voters did as well.

It's a fine piece of cinema, a pop-art masterpiece. Until the third act.

The skyscraper/sonar sequence is so boring I usually get up and piss or grab a snack, making sure to be back in my recliner in time for the final Havey Dent scene. Joker should never have been captured. His arc in TDK should have concluded once Dent is delivered into madness. Joker's final scene should have been in the shipyard when he sets the pile of cash ablaze. The finale with Dent was perfect, but I didn't need the obligatory action movie set piece. I know, I know, Batman is an action movie, but I'm simply talking about what I would have liked to have seen.

LOL. I have been following this movie for some time and I've never heard the "majority" come to a reasoning like this, even among the types that are very knowledgeable in film. Even on RottenTomatoes where the majority of the "intelligent" film reviewing people are, there was very few people that said that. There were a handful that I counted back in the day that said that....out of 270. Very few people have said that, and its just something that some are trying to pick apart now.

And the Joker being caught was one of the most powerful thematic elements in the film. The Joker's arc really is completed then because it comes to Batman's understanding that he did not win. And not only that, it was a powerful moment of Batman keeping with who he was, by not killing the man that killed the only woman he loved. The also futher relization to the audiance that the Joker and Batman are in an enternal struggle of good and evil, and that they can't destroy one another. And.....its always like that in the comics. Batman captures the Joker. Then of course later on...he escapes as he always does. That is something that is just part of the comic series.

Yea a skyscraper is cliche, but that was not the focus. The focus was the Ferry scene, which was brilliant and pure Joker. A no win sceniro. That is the Joker's game, he wants to prove to Gotham that they are "one bad day" away from him. It was again another part of the theme that was needed for the film and the points that Nolan was making. That and dressing up the hostages as clowns was again just another part of Joker's head games. If people think the fight with the SWAT was the climax...it wasn't it was just the place holder and the environment around it. The focus is on Gotham and the games Joker is playing upon them.

I never saw the sonar as good or bad. But that is one aspect that many did tear apart which is fine, to me it furthered the theme of "spying" on people as many governments tend to do to "save" us. And to me it furthered a theme that I will not get into because in the end Batman realizes he lost the battle, so all his spying and his methods were pointless. The Joker won.

Regardless yea I think that's fine that some don't care for the sonar, it makes sense that some don't like it. But as for the last 30 minutes? No. Unless you want a pointless movie yea. But the third act added and poured more into the themes of TDK, and actually established the most important ones. I think saying the third act of TDK is weak is in itself a weak ending. BB I could see more of an argument for it, but the themes in TDK's last half an hour were extremely needed and important.

And the line I put in bold for you: So you're saying that you and your friends are very intelligent people, and they your small group of friends agreed with you on this point...so it makes it valid?

Excuse me, I will say that the majority of people on these boards are the "intelligent type" especially with film, and that is why many come here. But if you're trying to say that you and "smart people" understand something we don't, well then I laugh at that. We are all pretty "film savvy" around these parts, so I would not try to put that you have a higher understanding of it then others.

That's cool that you think different, and we can debate, but none of this "I'm smarter then you" kind of talk. It does not go far here.

 

[rashad]

Falls apart after the 2 hr mark my ass. I enjoyed the hell out of those last 30 minutes.

 

[Solidus]

Falls apart after the 2 hr mark my ass. I enjoyed the hell out those last 30 minutes.

Agreed. And to me it was some of the most important parts. Even though I hate to even point at it, but yea I saw some people say this at Rottentomatoes, and Metacritic (which yes I know does not constitute the world I am aware lol). Some did say this, but most of them gave it a negative review anyways.

But the rest of the reviewers never said that. I have heard small complaints of the end, but very few "it fell apart" kind of talk. And looking at RT right now I found the few I remember that did say that, but it was a minority of "film critics" that claimed that.

But not wrong that some think that, I just could not disagree more with them.

The last 30 minutes were some of the best.

 

[Bruce Malone]

The thing that cost TDK was the behind the scenes schmoozing by miramax to get an already forgoten mediocore reviewed movie the Reader a nomination slot.

 

[weezerspider]

It was a comic book movie. Thats what cost it a spot. Puleeze don't over analyze it. Thats the end-all be-all reason it was snubbed.

 

[RetroNaz]

Falls apart after the 2 hr mark my ass. I enjoyed the hell out of those last 30 minutes.

Exactly.

Now suddenly we have all these supposed "film critics" coming out of the wood work to tell us how disappointing the last act of the film was and that's why it wasn't nominated.

Three words.

Comic. Book. Film.

 

[Micah12345]

The only problems I had with the third act is that it's set in a boring skyscraper instead of an abandoned amusement park on a pier or something.

That, and the way the ferry scene came to a head was anti-climatic.

And two-face died.

 

[Solidus]

Exactly.

Now suddenly we have all these supposed "film critics" coming out of the wood work to tell us how disappointing the last act of the film was and that's why it wasn't nominated.

Three words.

Comic. Book. Film.

I agree. It was the reason that it was snubbed. I mean the Academy consists of the same type of players that we could say consists of RottenTomatoes. Film Advocates/Professionals. And the film was a majority loved film. Additionally the film won the DGA and I think most of the other guild awards. It was loved. But, when it came to Oscar time some tried to make up reasons why it was snubbed, and then that's when this kind of talk came out.

It was simply because it was a comic film.

 

[RetroNaz]

I agree. It was the reason that it was snubbed. I mean the Academy consists of the same type of players that we could say consists of RottenTomatoes. Film Advocates/Professionals. And the film was a majority loved film. Additionally the film one the DGA and I think most of the other guild awards. It was loved. But, when it came to Oscar time some tried to make up reasons why it was snubbed, and then that's when this kind of talk came out.

It was simply because it was a comic film.

That's right.

People are more than welcome to express their opinion about not liking the third act, that's what this place is great for. But to suddenly try and justify why the film wasn't nominated by trying to pick apart some of the ending is ridiculous.

Titanic had a terrible last act. They all died. That still won best picture

 

[Solidus]

The only problems I had with the third act is that it's set in a boring skyscraper instead of an abandoned amusement park on a pier or something.

That, and the way the ferry scene came to a head was anti-climatic.

And two-face died.

I agree it could have had a more "interesting setting"

And the Two-Face thing, I never held it against the movie at all, but yea I would have liked to see more Two-Face, but they still wrapped him up nicley IMO.

Yet the ferry-scene to me was not the climax and it was not meant to be. The climax was more of the final moments with the Joker and Two-Face.

But yea it would have been cool to be in a different "area" but to me that was a minor quibble.

 

[Solidus]

That's right.

People are more than welcome to express their opinion about not liking the third act, that's what this place is great for. But to suddenly try and justify why the film wasn't nominated by trying to pick apart some of the ending is ridiculous.

Titanic had a terrible last act. They all died. That still won best picture

LOL. Well that and that same year they nominated Curious Case of Benjamin Button. A good film, but had some major pacing issues, which most critics did point out. Yet it was nominated. So to me the pacing argument with the academy was not the real reason, because there was a horribly paced film among its nominated. It was because it was a comic book movie.

 

[RetroNaz]

The only problems I had with the third act is that it's set in a boring skyscraper instead of an abandoned amusement park on a pier or something.

That, and the way the ferry scene came to a head was anti-climatic.

And two-face died.

The abanonded amusement park was fan fiction at its finest. I mean, really?

What tactical advantage would that have given the Joker? Study the way the third act was played out, and you'll see why it was in the skyscraper.

And Harvey had half of his face owned by burns that were so bad, his eye ball was hanging literally by its thread in the eye socket. If the fall hadn't killed him, then the infection would have. And that would have been a lame ending, again without Batman having the change to be heroic by taking the slack.

 

[Joker'sHenchman]

C'mon guys, really? The ending sucked. The whole Two-Face subplot was contrived and felt incredibly forced. Who really felt for Harvey Dent? Anyone? I sure didn't. The whole thing was rushed and came to an embarresing head at the end with the warehouse scene. Dent dying but not before attempting to kill a kid (and stupidly himself, "I'm about to" was one of the dumbest lines in the movie - referring to punishing Batman).

In addition the whole Batman on the run thing was a bit dumb. There's no reason that they couldn't have blamed it all on Joker. The only people to know differently were Batman, Gordon and a few cops... just about the same amount of people who knew about Dent's murdering spree.

Honestly, whoever said something about it falling apart after the 2 hour mark was spot on... and finally, where in the hell was Joker in an orange jumsuit being thrown into Arkham in the end. I would have killed to see:

INT. ARKHAM ASYLUM - JAIL CELL - NIGHT
The Joker is thrown into a cell. He turns to the camera and smiles as we

FADE TO BLACK:

Nolan really dropped the ball leaving him hanging...

 

[RetroNaz]

I agree it could have had a more "interesting setting"

And the Two-Face thing, I never held it against the movie at all, but yea I would have liked to see more Two-Face, but they still wrapped him up nicley IMO.

Yet the ferry-scene to me was not the climax and it was not meant to be. The climax was more of the final moments with the Joker and Two-Face.

But yea it would have been cool to be in a different "area" but to me that was a minor quibble.

This will always be up for debate, but I do wonder if the intention was to have the Joker back for the third film. It would certainly change the way we view his climax at the end of TDK.