Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[Hellstormer]

This is true, but can he win with grappling techniques? Possibly, but he'd have to keep Beldam out of his brain in order to do it, and that'd be very difficult. You can't stop a guy from mentally putting you into a coma with grappling techniques. Gorgon's going down!

And I'm okay with letting this match go to the voters at this point.

Winner - Jesse Bedlam

In all fairness I usually get the last word so I won't say anymore.

 

[kytrigger]

Yeah, I think we're about to the standstill part of the match so I'll respond to this then I'm willing to let it go to the voters.

Fair enough. I'm just going to respond to these alst rebuttals. Just so you know, I will probably put up a recap/closing argument Monday,but won't have any new info in it.

I think this is almost stretching it a bit, but I think I'll let the voters decide if they agree with me or not. To me, inhaling and breathing are the same. Science shmience. I think it's a good enough example to show that he breaths. Up to the voters.

Well, I'll argue the "scinece schmience" part just because her powers are entirely based on science. She isn't a telepath or anything, she alters peoples emotions chemically with pheremones. Since her powers are pretty much scientific, I just responded with science. But let the voter's decide if it actualy worked.

What makes you think she can't control the pheremones? She sends them out, to people, and then uses the pheremones to control them. I think she controls the pheremones just fine.

What makes you think she can control them. All descriptions of her power is that she decides what kind of pheremone to emit (scared, angry, etc.) and then emits that pheremone. Nothign in any description I've read hints in any way that she can change the pheremones once they're out of her body or can control where they actually go. She can just choose what kind of pheremone to emit, and then emit it. After that, nothign shows she controls the pheremones whatsoever.

1) She CAN control pheremones,

No she can't. She can control what types of pheremones she wants to emit, that's it. Once they leave her body, she has absolutely no control over the pheremones

and if he absorbs her pheremones, they're in him even without his needing to breath, thus, he can then control him, as they'd still effect him (same as when he absorbed the cocaine and the pills, they effected him, so would these). She can then control him easier and it takes the whole breathing argument out of the argument.

Once again, no. She doesn't actualyl control the pheremones. She just chooses what pheremones to emit and emits them. After that she does nothing. If Absorbing man turned into the pheremones she wouldn't be able to control him at all.

2) If he does just kinda flitter away in pheremone pieces, would that effectively remove him from the playing field and end up with his defeat? He could pull himself together again, but I figure it'd take some time. When Sentry blew him up, it was considered a win, why not now? (granted, that fight took place during Civil War, but it's just an example).

Well, it's not like he would be in teh air for hours. He has turned into air before and has reconstituted hmimself rather quickly. I mean he would be like that for 5 minutes. If he is willingly turning himslef into that and can turn himself back willingly, I don't see why that would be defeat. That would be like saying Metamorpho is automatically defeated if he turns into a gaseous state to escape attack.

This argument is pretty moot anyway (for me at least) since I jstu kind of added it in there. my main argument is still that Absorbing Man would be affected at all by her pheremones.

So completely taking away the Breathing argument, if he CAN absorb the pheremones, then they are now in him and she can control them. He is then taken care of. She can make him discipate, kill himself, bow to her eternally, whatever. She would win the match then easily.

I still would like to know what evidence you have that she actually controls the pheremones she releases (like Swarm controls his bees). EVERY single thing I have read states that she just emits the pheremones. There is no evidence that she still controls them. In this way, she is like Stacy X in tath she just emits the pheremones. Once Stacy X gets someoen to lust her, she can't just get them to stop, it's out of her control.

Winner- Absorbing Man

 

[JewishHobbit]

Fair enough. I'm just going to respond to these alst rebuttals. Just so you know, I will probably put up a recap/closing argument Monday,but won't have any new info in it.

That's fine. I'll debate a few things here and I'll be done (though I'll probably say that another five times... I tend to do that)

Well, I'll argue the "scinece schmience" part just because her powers are entirely based on science. She isn't a telepath or anything, she alters peoples emotions chemically with pheremones. Since her powers are pretty much scientific, I just responded with science. But let the voter's decide if it actualy worked.

My only rebuttal here is that this is the comic book world. Exact science doesn't always apply.

What makes you think she can control them. All descriptions of her power is that she decides what kind of pheremone to emit (scared, angry, etc.) and then emits that pheremone. Nothign in any description I've read hints in any way that she can change the pheremones once they're out of her body or can control where they actually go. She can just choose what kind of pheremone to emit, and then emit it. After that, nothign shows she controls the pheremones whatsoever. No she can't. She can control what types of pheremones she wants to emit, that's it. Once they leave her body, she has absolutely no control over the pheremones Once again, no. She doesn't actualyl control the pheremones. She just chooses what pheremones to emit and emits them. After that she does nothing. If Absorbing man turned into the pheremones she wouldn't be able to control him at all.

I've not read anything in the comics that leads me to believe that she cannot control her pheromones. She wishes to use them, she releases them, directs them to her target, and the target does as she wishes. Even the untrained 616 Wallflower could pick her target and from a distance guide her pheremones to him/her. If there's a room of barely trained New Mutants, and a barely trained Wallflower can guide her pheremones to a specific target.... then a highly trained House of M wallflower should have no problem directing and controling her pheremones. I honestly have no idea where you're getting the "can't control them" idea.

And if Absorbing Man absorbs the pheremones, he'll be absorbing the suicidal phermones, making him want to commit suicide. It still applies and he'll still die.

Well, it's not like he would be in teh air for hours. He has turned into air before and has reconstituted hmimself rather quickly. I mean he would be like that for 5 minutes. If he is willingly turning himslef into that and can turn himself back willingly, I don't see why that would be defeat. That would be like saying Metamorpho is automatically defeated if he turns into a gaseous state to escape attack.

Thing is, if Wallflower has to sit around for 5 minutes waiting on Absorbing Man to pull himself together, I think that's long enough to consider him rendered useless. I'm willing to let that be up to the voters though. He's not defeated because he's discipated, he's defeated because he's taken out of the fight for an extended period of time. I think 5 minutes is plenty of time to decide that myself.

I still would like to know what evidence you have that she actually controls the pheremones she releases (like Swarm controls his bees). EVERY single thing I have read states that she just emits the pheremones. There is no evidence that she still controls them. In this way, she is like Stacy X in tath she just emits the pheremones. Once Stacy X gets someoen to lust her, she can't just get them to stop, it's out of her control.

Again with the Kid Omega example. If you look at the panel where he dies, you can see that her pheremones are black and that she's wrapped them around him as he is killing himself. They aren't expanding in a cloud, or just kinda going everywhere, they're directed and even wrapping around him. Wallflower can control her pheremones just fine thank you very much. No confusion, doubt, or room for debate there... it's a fact.


Winner - Wallflower (House of M)

Now since I'll be working on Monday, I'm going to go ahead and give a final statement...

My opponant has put up good defense for Absorbing Man, but I feel that I've adaquately dispelled any doubts he's tried to cast. I wish I had scans, but I don't have a scanner available at the moment to use... but the main example I have for those of you with the issues or trade, is the House of M: New X-Men Academy X storyline... issue 1, final page.... the death of Kid Omega. This one panel shows that she can control her pheremones, that they are stronger than even telepathy, and that she is cruel and will kill on a whim. The other example that I use is the MK Spiderman: Wild Blue Yonder arc. Absorbing Man is shown breathing in this arc as he sniffs cocaine. He's shown swolling pills and those pill taking effect, showing that though he's magical, his body can still be effected by the drugs, and it reasons to believe he can also be effected by Wallflower's pheremones. If he somehow could tell the pheremones were around him or effecting him (Highly doubt it) then he can absorbe the pheremones, becoming the pheremones... and since I believe I've proven Wallflower can control her pheremones, those within him are now under his control, even without the breathing aspect. She can still have him commit suicide. Even if she cannot.... he just became the pheremone that triggers suicide and he's entirely consumed by it... he doesn't have a chance to even say no.

While Absorbing Man is the more popular character and probably the one who most will think to vote for first off, I think I've defended Wallflower at every point brought up and shown that every situation Absorbing Man throws at her, she can overcome and gain the victory. Through our debates, I confiently feel that not only can Wallflower defeat Absorbing Man, but that she can defeat him quickly and fairly easily. She's very underrated. In my opinion, Absorbing Man cannot beat Wallflower.

Winner - Wallflower (House of M)

 

[primemover]

Mysterio (PRIMEMOVER) bio

vs.

Gamesmaster (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio

Look at the picture, Mysterio is listed as 'DECEASED', you can't defeat a dead man.

Winner: Mysterio

 

[kytrigger]

Closing Argument: Absorbing Man vs. Wallflower

This fight is basically based on whether or not Absorbing Man would be vulnerable to Wallflower's pheremones (I think my opponent would agree that without the pheremones Wallflower is toast.) However, there are a number of variables to take in about the pheremone thing, so I am going to do this a little differently this time. What I will be giving the voters are facts and then what the voters need to decide on.

Fact: Absorbing Man doesn't need to breathe. This has been proven by the fact that he has survived in space for quite a while.

Voters:What the voters need to decide is if Absorbing Man stills breathes even though he doesn't need to.



Fact: Absorbing Man's anatomy is not the same as a normal human's/mutant's. This has been proven not only because he can absorb things, but when he has shattered. He has had his entire body shattered before and there was no sign of any organs. He has also had his arm cut off before and there was no bone or anythign of the sort. he has also has his entier body dispersed into water or gas and been able to reconstitute it.

Voters: What the voter's need to decide is if his body (for the most part) still works the same as a normal persons. He has never shown to have organs, but some may say that is because organs are too graphic to show. However, I will point out that there have been plenty of times where when someone's leg or arm is cut off, the been will show, and that was not the case with Absorbing Man. To my knowledge, he has never bleed either (but I am not positive on this last part)



Fact: Absorbing Man is a magical being. It is because of this that he doesn't do many of the things a normal person would. He doesn't need to eat or drink (proof of this is also because he survived in space). It is apparent that Absorbing Man doesn't have to do the same things a normal person would do.

Voters: If he doesn't eat or drink, would he still breathe if he doesn't have to? Also, does the fact that he isn't like a normal person mean that he wouldn't be affected by pheremones like a normal person?



Fact: Absorbing Man snorted cocaine. He then "became" cocaine. (note: this was in Marvel Knights which I am pretty sure is NOT in continuity. If I find out it is, I will add another post saying it is. I'll still address it anyway though just in case.)

Voters: Does the fact that he willingly inhaled something prove that he needs to breathe? Also, if Absorbing Man becomes everything he absorbs, why isn't he constantly air if he breathes?



Fact: When Absorbing Man absorbs something, he completely becomes it. It isn't just his skin that becomes stone or metal, his entire body does (proven when he was glass and shattered completely). In this match he will absorb Asgard and become magical steel/stone.

Voters: If his entire body is metal/stone, and the pheremones DO get inside his nose, could they still pass through stone and metal instead of regular body tissue to get to his brain?



These are the main questions to the debate, and all the hurdles that Wallflower has to overcome for her pheremones to work. If you think her pheremones can overcome all of this, then she would win. If you don't think she can overcome all these obstacles, then Absorbing Man would win.


Winner- Absorbing Man

 

[JewishHobbit]

Taking your formula, I want to just add some things for the voters to think on that I uncovered as well (only to be fair)

Voters: What the voter's need to decide is if his body (for the most part) still works the same as a normal persons. He has never shown to have organs, but some may say that is because organs are too graphic to show. However, I will point out that there have been plenty of times where when someone's leg or arm is cut off, the been will show, and that was not the case with Absorbing Man. To my knowledge, he has never bleed either (but I am not positive on this last part)

While his body would be differant in my opinion, simple pills still had effects on him when swollowed. Would the same be said due to the pheremones? He wasn't shown absorbing them, and it wasn't mentioned, so it led me to believe that they simply had an effect on his biology. Will pheremones be able to effect him as pills did?

Fact: Absorbing Man snorted cocaine. He then "became" cocaine. (note: this was in Marvel Knights which I am pretty sure is NOT in continuity. If I find out it is, I will add another post saying it is. I'll still address it anyway though just in case.)

Voters: Does the fact that he willingly inhaled something prove that he needs to breathe? Also, if Absorbing Man becomes everything he absorbs, why isn't he constantly air if he breathes?

Just wanted to note that Marvel Knights IS in continuity, at least Spidey is. It was in Marvel Knights that Norman Osborne's storyline from Pulse continued, and where Scorpion got the Venom costume, which is definately in continuity. Thus, the Wild Blue Yonder would also be in continuity. And as I said in my arguments.... you try to snort something without breathing. I think it's proof enough.... Also I was always under the impression that Absorbing Man absorbs what he wants, that's why he's not air. Using that logic, why isn't he always the dirt or pavement he walks on, or the leather in his shoes, or cotton of his clothes. He picks what he absorbs. If he absorbed anything he was around, then he'll become the pheremones that trigger suicide and my match is won even easier

Fact: When Absorbing Man absorbs something, he completely becomes it. It isn't just his skin that becomes stone or metal, his entire body does (proven when he was glass and shattered completely). In this match he will absorb Asgard and become magical steel/stone.

Voters: If his entire body is metal/stone, and the pheremones DO get inside his nose, could they still pass through stone and metal instead of regular body tissue to get to his brain?

When he popped the pills that effected him he was in his metal form. Could the pheremone's still work through metal if the pills did?

These are the main questions to the debate, and all the hurdles that Wallflower has to overcome for her pheremones to work. If you think her pheremones can overcome all of this, then she would win. If you don't think she can overcome all these obstacles, then Absorbing Man would win.

I think this is an accurate statement


Winner- Wallflower (House of M)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Shatterstar
Gamesmaster
Gorgon - earthquakes can stop jesse

hmmm for the first one, several good points on both sides but I am going with Wallflower because he does seem to take in air on occasion and she would gain control of him.

 

[wiegeabo]

Probably the toughest choice for me besides Agatha and Tom. I was ready to go A-Man from the starts. Great debates. Can't believe I'm saying this, but

Wallflower
Shatterstar (I really really want to say Gambit)
Gamesmaster
Jesse Bedlam (brain controls the body. When it's compromised, everything falls apart)

 

[kytrigger]

Absorbing Man
Gamesmaster
Jesse Bedlam
Shatterstar

 

[Hellstormer]

GORGON!
Wallflower...
Shatterstar
Gamemaster

 

[Harlekin]

Absorbing Man - Good debate, but I don't believe her pheremones will affect him when he's wood and stone.
Shatterstar
Gamesmaster
Jesse Bedlam - I think he can take down Gorgon before Gorgon gets too close.

 

[JewishHobbit]

wallflower (House of M)
Shatterstar
Jesse Bedlam
Gamesmaster

 

[hippy fascist]

Shatterstar (debate = win)
Absorbing Man (Absorbs asgard, great concept. Full marks to ky on this one!)
Jesse Bedlam (Shut down the brain and the body will fall, just ask the haitian )
Gamesmaster (PWNED!)

 

[hippy fascist]

Results So Far:

Jesse Bedlam is currently beating Gorgon 5-2
Gamesmaster is currently beating Mysterio 7-0
Shatterstar is currently beating Gambit 7-0
Wallflower is currently beating Absorbing Man 5-2

 

[JewishHobbit]

Shatterstar (debate = win)
Absorbing Man (Absorbs asgard, great concept. Full marks to ky on this one!)
Jesse Bedlam (Shut down the brain and the body will fall, just ask the haitian )
Gamesmaster (PWNED!)

I like the haitian

 

[Darren Daring]

Jesse Bedlam
Gamesmaster
Shatterstar
Wallflower

 

[primemover]

Absorbing Man (her powers would never be a factor with his potential size and the havok he would wreak)
Shatterstar (Gambit would get more trim though)
Mysterio
Jesse Bedlam (mind over might, though I am sure Gorgon would power through a good portion of the attacks)

 

[Midnight Ice]

Jesse Bedlam
Gamesmaster
Shatterstar
Absorbing Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Wallflower-HoM - (Wallflower wins this because 1) Absorbing Man won't know a thing about her, and 2) He'll see such a small, tiny girl, and that will make him waaay overconfident at the beginning.)

*Shatterstar

*Gamesmaster

*Gorgon - (Jesse's powers work with humans. As Hellstormer points out, Gorgon is a Inhuman...plus, Gorgon wouldn't be such a ***** and lay on the floor screaming because his leg gets hurt.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Wallflower beat Absorbing Man 6-5
Shatterstar beat Gambit 11-0
Gamesmaster beat Mysterio 10-1
Jesse Bedlam beat Gorgon 8-3

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 3,

Match 7:

Baron Zemo (HARLEKIN) bio

vs.

Man-Wolf (WIEGEABO) bio

Match 8:

Jim Hammond (ZOKEN) bio

vs.

Morbius (DARTHPHERE) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 4,

Match 7:

Super Skrull (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Wonderman (AHURA MAZDA) bio

Match 8:

Multiple Man (DARTHPHERE) bio

vs.

Carol Danvers (DARTHPHERE) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: Genosha (After destruction)

The island is located off the east coast of Africa and boasted a high standard of living, an excellent economy, and freedom from the political and racial turmoil that characterized neighboring nations.

In New X-men #115, the entire island was reduced to rubble and its mutant population was slain by Sentinels ordered by Cassandra Nova. Magneto and Xavier have since then joined forces to rebuild the island nation. A few survivors and newly arriving mutants who wish to help with the rebuilding process remain on the island.

(The island is pretty much wiped out. The main players from the comic, Excalibur, which featured Charles Xavier and Magneto, are not in this land. But, figure there will be survivors around; but, just like in the comic, they will be in hiding.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

(Ahura is away for a couple days, and he asked me to post the following opening debate.)

Wonderman vs. Super Skrull:

This would be a very interesting battle.

Wonderman is an ionically charged superhero with super strength, flight, super human resistance, instantaneous reflexes, and super speed and other ionic abilities such as increasing his size and shooting ionic blasts out of his eyes.

He is stronger then the Thing, having been shown to lift 50,000 tons with little difficulty.

Super Skrull is the intial FF4 all rolled up in one.

Now each would know each other, but Wonderman as an avenger will have more information on Super skrull then what he will have on him.

Super Skrull tends to use his strength, fire abilities, and stretching most of all. He rarely uses force fields. In addition, he has no where near the expertise of Sue.

Wonder Man would try to engage Super Skrull in battle and being stronger, more impervious, and faster would eventually overcome Klyrt. It would be a tough batle but Wonder Man cuold pull it through and take it.

Winner - Wonder Man