Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[Phaedrus45]

It was verified. Weapon X #9 (summary here). I've deleted my posts per request, but I just want to note that I'm not debating either side, just showing that it was confirmed.

I think I see where the confusion is coming from. Kane cannot "shape and alter technology, which would interact with his own cybernetic bodyparts." But, listed in his abilities is "Metal Control," which is different from altering technology. So, I assume he can still alter metal, which is one of the main parts of my defense to his possible weapons.

If this is incorrect, let me know. But, I believe I have figured out where my confusion was arising. I won't alter my debate; but, if everything seems to be ok within Kane's powers, I'll edit a portion of my debate in a future post.

(Also, please see discussion thread for a discussion on what people should do if they see a possible inaccuracy in someone's debate.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

I figured I'd reprint the current Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #6 entry on Garrison Kane to eliminate any discussion on Kane's Metal Control.

Abilities/Accessories: Initially simply a young man of great skill, exceptional fitness, and advanced weapon training, Kane was fitted by Department K with super-strong mechanical limbs, a bionic left eye with remote/infrared vision, sonic resonators, plasma and electrical dischargers, and eventually holographic projectors; he carried advanced firearms and an energy-projecting ion blade as necessary. In the fortieth century, his cyborg arms were replaced by synthetic-organic liquid metal capable of self-repair, malleability to create shields or repel bullets, and generating detachable hands which he could launch and control remotely. Near the end of his life, he was equipped with a cybernetic right eye, enhanced speed, and the ability to transform his hands into guns, blades, or claws. He could download new powers such as toxic emissions and metal control as necessary.

INTELLIGENCE 2
STRENGTH 5
SPEED 3
DURABILITY 5
ENERGY PROJECTION 6
FIGHTING SKILLS 6

 

[Phaedrus45]

More Garrison Kane vs. Pluto:

After doing more research into Garrison Kane, I'm feeling much better about this match than when I first saw it. For one thing, Pluto's invisibility will be useless in this match, because as Kane's official bio states, he has "a bionic left eye with remote/infrared vision." This means Kane will be able to see Pluto on Infrared.

Garrison Kane cannot download all mutant templates, as agreed upon. But, he would be able to download the templates of any or all of his Weapon X compatriots, with the exception of Madison's powers. Here is a list of available Weapon X compatriots: Mesmero, Aurora, Marrow, Sabretooth, Reaper, Sauron, Washout, Wild Child, and Wildside.

Now, think about Kane's already impressive abilities, like Metal Control, coupled with any of these numerous powers that Weapon X possesses. Mesmero alone could help Kane win against Pluto. Washout has already proven to be quite a threat in this contest so far. Yet, the biggest advantage is that Kane will have information on Pluto, and Pluto will go in cocky and arrogant without a bit of information on who Garrison Kane is....especially since Garrison Kane is originally from the future and the Weapon X program is a very hush-hush organization.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

First off, I just got to this tonight and have not seen what Harl wrote out and then edited so whatever he said I have not seen.

Garrison Kane vs. Pluto:

The bios.

Garrison Kane:

Kane-Weapon X:

AbilitiesHeightened strength and reflexes, able to transform weapons attached on his body armor to his liking, access all recorded mutant powers and use them

Another bio states:

Powers and Abilities:
biometallic extremities augment his strength, speed, reflexes and durability, regenerate themselves when damaged, and can download abilities from his database, morphing his liquid metal into different forms, such as automatic weapons, plasma dischargers, laser weapons, and a molecule-thin blade


(What benefits Kane is the fact that he can access quite a bit of information about Pluto and Wakanda from various databanks. Here are the teams and organizations he's been affiliated with:

Affiliations:
Six Pack, Wild Pack, Weapon X Program II, III, Clan Chosen, Department K, AIM, Weapon P.R.I.M.E.)[/quote]

Pluto:

Hades has superhuman strength and endurance like all Marvel Olympians, but he is stronger than most of them. He is also immortal; he doesn't age, is immune to all terrestrial diseases and poisons and while he can be wounded, most wounds he will receive will heal quickly. Only extreme force would be able to kill him and even then his divine essence may be untouched, allowing him to be resurrected. Hades has vast magical powers which he can use for various effects like teleportation, energy blasts and protective shields. As a Death God, Hades has a pact with Death, allowing him to claim the souls of any worshipper of the Greek Gods and take them to his Underworld as his servants. He can drain the energy from any opponent he touches. The various Death Gods have their own alliance, though there is some internal competition as well, as seen when both Hela and Hades tried to claim the soul of Odin after his death.
Hades owns a helmet which makes him invisible and undetectable, even to his fellow gods. He also owns several adamantine axes. These axes are nearly indestructible and can channel and focus his energy blasts.


Needless to say, Pluto is one bad Muther&#*#@! But, that doesn't mean he has this match won outright. There are a few things that really benefits Garrison Kane in this match.

*First, as mentioned above, Kane has been affiliated with numerous teams and organizations; plus, Pluto is a pretty well-known God. Kane will have instant knowledge of who he's fighting. Sadly, Pluto won't know jack-crap about Kane or Wakanda.

In none of Kane's affiliations, do I see one which allows him full access to the Avenger's database. And Pluto is a shady God, not one that is well known to many. To say Kane would have access to him is simply overstating his bounds because he does not have access to every database just because he has met a few heroes that do. His only information which he can get about Pluto is from Greek mythology. That is it. I strongly disagree on anything else.

With regard to Wakanda, nothing prevents Pluto from teleporting around Wakanda. He can freely travel anywhere on Earth, has in the past and is not under some rule not to do so. He is just not supposed to collect souls of those that do not worship the Greek Gods. Therefore for him to take the 24 hours to do so is a very easy assumption that i can make given the extent of this God's powers.

I grant however, that he may not know much about Kane's powers except on the off chance that the soul of a greek mutant that knew him happenned to be enchainned in tartarus or basking in the elysian fields, in which case he would get information (Pluto has full access to the souls under his charge and has used them many times in the past) on Kane. But I recognise that the chances are remote.

*As Pluto's bio states, "Only extreme force would be able to kill him and even then his divine essence may be untouched, allowing him to be resurrected." The one thing that Kane possesses is extreme force, and he'll be able to, and would have no qualms against, killing Pluto. Just one of Kane's abilities he is able to access is Madison Jeffries, who has "technomorphing abilities." Knowing the basic lay of the land, due to his affiliations, Kane could use Jeffries abilities with the Vibranium around Wakanda to create a deadly enough weapon to slay Pluto.

What would be required to slay Pluto is nothing short of a nuclear bomb which would destroy Kane in the process. Extreme force is not a simple rocket or explosive device, let alone a ray. Pluto is a first generation Olympian, son of the Titan Cronus and the Titan Rhea. He is a brother to Zeus and the most powerful magic user (in the marvel universe because in greek mythology it would be hecate) among the Olympians.

*Another excellent biography about Kane states the following:

After he was sent to the future he gained new cybernetic apendages which were made out of liquid metal and could transform into shields, knives, or create detatchable remote controlled hands. His arms were also capable of repairing themselves. Due to the enhancements that the newest incarnation of Weapon X has given him, Kane now has numerous bionic appendages which houses various weapons. He now has the ability to see in various spectrums of light, project holograms, and he has a computerized targeting system. His strength was also upgraded and he is now more resistant to damage. He could download super powers such as toxic emissions, metal control, and various other abilities.

Yes there are a number of useful powers but is there protection against magic....hmm I do not think so. And everything about Pluto is magical.

Just one thing to be clear about Kane, I do not remeber seeing him controlling adamantium plus it is funny that when he was practicing his upgrade he never once used this metal controlling power. This is a synopsis below:

At the Weapon X compound, Garrison Kane is in a training exercise against about a dozen of Boxbots, testing the latest upgrade of his system. His right arm transformed into an energy blaster, he keeps some of the robots busy, though one of them grabs him by the throat. Kane returns the gesture with his left arm and uses his latest ability – to download several different superpowers into his system. Choosing “increased superhuman strength” it takes only mere seconds until his cybernetic bodyparts have downloaded the required data and activates this power, enabling Kane to easily rip of the Boxbot’s head. Both hands transforming into claws, he slashes through another opponent before deciding to test another ability. Kane downloads “subzero temperature gas” and uses it to freeze all of the remaining robots.

You would think if he could control metal he would have simply just caused all the machines to be destroyed.

This really shows how screwed Pluto really is. With Metal Control, all of Pluto's armor, weapons, and his nice little helmet is completely within Garrison's control. After this, toxic emissions and all his other deadly weapons (including what he gets from Wakanda) will end up defeating Pluto.

Ok lets be very clear, nothing of Pluto is within Kane's grasp as is inferred above. All of his equipment is inherently magical. His armour and helmet were created by the cyclops during the war with the Titans and are not natural metal objects. They created this using magics not unlike what Surtur used to create Mjollnir (in so far that they are not a process that can be replicated through science). To be abosultely honest, no one knows exactly what material Pluto's helmet or armour is made up of.

*Since Kane can see the various spectrums of light, its likely Pluto's helmet is going to do little good, especially coupled with the fact Kane's metal control will detect the metal Pluto has on him. Simply put, Kane will think, "I detect metal in front of me, but cannot see it. Aha, it must be Pluto." Now, since Kane can project holograms, Pluto is going to attack the wrong person, which will further give away his location, as Kane lies in hiding. Finally, don't forget Kane has a computerized targeting system. There will be no problem getting Pluto in his line of sight.

Again I am going to restate this again.

This is not science but magic. There is no spectrum of light that would allow Kane to see Pluto if he is wearing his helmet plus that helmet is inherently magical as well, therefore would be undetectable to any metal controlling powers that Kane may have.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuttal:

This I agree with. But, the abilities he can still get are quite impressive.

As long as we agree it is onle certain downloaded powers.

First, Pluto is a very well known God. Plus, he's been to Earth numerous times, even getting involved with the Avengers on a few occassions. Couple this with Kane's various affiliations throughout the years, he'll find enough information on Pluto to be very prepared. Pluto, obviously, won't know a thing about Kane and what a threat he is.

First off, he is well known to those that studied Roman mythology. He is not very well worshipped in the Marvel world Kane lives in. And he has been on earth many times incognito, most times unbeknowest to most except for very few affiliated with the Olympains. And second of all, Kane does not have access to the Avenger's database so he could not get any extra information outside of the stories that date back to pre-christian times on Pluto.

Incorrect. Pluto has no ability to research Wakanda, as it has nothing to do with the Olympic Gods. Now, this doesn't hold true with Kane. Many of his affiliations will have some information on Wakanda and Vibranium.

Just because Wakanda is not Greek does not mean Pluto has no access to it. Just to make a point, New York had nothing to do with the Olympic Gods and Pluto travelled there on many a occassion. He can freely travel to anywhere on Earth in an instant. And he will have 24 hours to do so.

This is the same false bravado that Pluto will be having going into this match. Pluto thinks he's all that and a ball of cheese; when, in fact, Kane is quite a threat to Pluto, especially considering many of his weapons will be rendered useless.

Simply, how are magical blasts renderred useless or anything of Pluto's which is magical. Kane who at best is a mid level fighter is not a challenge to one of the most powerful Olympic Gods, powerful enough to deserve an audience with Death itself.

You expect Pluto to be able to find Kane. Kane will no doubt be using some ingenious cloaking technology or his holograms. In my opinion, Kane will know where Pluto is long before Pluto locates Kane.

Pluto can track life very easily and he can do so undetected. How...through magic, which he has done in the past on many an occassion.

First, there aren't too many human parts of Kane left to touch. Second, the Invisible Helmet will be quickly removed with Kane's Metal Control. Pluto is going to have a tough time when he realizes the metal of his armor has been made into a metal prison, whereas he couldn't even touch his own butt to scratch it.

First of all, lets do some research on the Greek Gods before making such claims. Know that most of their equipment was provided by the Cyclops, before the advent of Humanity and is magical. It is not mideavil armour. Kane would have no powers to control it. This includes his helmet.

Again, Kane isn't standing out in the open, saying "here I am, oh deadly God of Olympus." Plus, it really sucks when Pluto doesn't realize Kane's holograms and makes it easily able for Kane to find him.

A hologram is not going to fool a God of death who can sense life. Pluto is not somone who sees just with his eyes and hears with his ears (who are superhiuman, by the way) he has extra sensory powers and can sense where human life is.

Pluto is going to have his hands full, being assaulted by Kane and his numerous abilities. He won't even know where Kane is, and Kane could even use his abilities to lay traps to further give Pluto's location away.

You are mistaken above because it is Kane that will not know where Pluto is. This is not some simple mutant or robot that Kane is fighting, something he is used to. This is a powerful God which is way beyond Kane's fighting class.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I figured I'd reprint the current Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #6 entry on Garrison Kane to eliminate any discussion on Kane's Metal Control.

Abilities/Accessories: Initially simply a young man of great skill, exceptional fitness, and advanced weapon training, Kane was fitted by Department K with super-strong mechanical limbs, a bionic left eye with remote/infrared vision, sonic resonators, plasma and electrical dischargers, and eventually holographic projectors; he carried advanced firearms and an energy-projecting ion blade as necessary. In the fortieth century, his cyborg arms were replaced by synthetic-organic liquid metal capable of self-repair, malleability to create shields or repel bullets, and generating detachable hands which he could launch and control remotely. Near the end of his life, he was equipped with a cybernetic right eye, enhanced speed, and the ability to transform his hands into guns, blades, or claws. He could download new powers such as toxic emissions and metal control as necessary.

INTELLIGENCE 2
STRENGTH 5
SPEED 3
DURABILITY 5
ENERGY PROJECTION 6
FIGHTING SKILLS 6

Here are Pluto's abilities:

Intelligence: Normal (4/10)
Strength: Superhuman Class 75 (9/12)
Speed: Superhuman (6/10)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike regenerative (12/14)
Agility: Superhuman (6/7)
Reflexes: Superhuman (6/7)
Fighting Skills: Excellent hand-to-hand combatant, skilled in use of axe and sword
Superhuman physical powers: In addition to the above listed physical abilities, Pluto possesses virtual immortality; the ability to manipulate vast cosmic/mystical energies for numerous purposes including powerful force bolts, creating nearly impenetrable force fields, creating interdimensional apertures to transport himself across dimension, creating mystical flame (to which he is himself immune) or weapons of mystical flame; he can also weaken an opponent with his touch
Personal Weaponry: Battleaxe made of nearly indestructible adamantine through which he can focus his force bolts if he so chooses
Other Accessories: Can create various weapons as needed out of mystical flame, such as a spear or sword, whose touch can paralyze an opponent, Helmet of invisibility, enabling its wearer to be invisible to even other Olympians

Just to be clear as to the source of the helmet and the axes:

Pluto has a helmet of invisibility made for him by the Cyclopes, one-eyed giants who were trapped in Tartarus along with Pluto by Cronus. Using it, Pluto can make himself magically invisible even to other Olympians.

Pluto wields a large battleaxe through which he can project and focus his force bolts (although he is fully capable of projecting the bolts without it). The battleaxe is made of enchanted adamantine and is virtually indestructible. One of the axes was smashed by a spell of the Norns in recent years but Pluto has others. All of them were constructed for Pluto by the Cyclopes.

Now not to mention that Kane os overpowerred at every single level here, he also has no defense to what Pluto could do. And enchanted makes Kane's powers useless.

Kane does not have omega mutant powers and never did. His is a mid level fighter and Pluto is simply out of his weight class.

Winner - Pluto

 

[Ahura Mazda]

After doing more research into Garrison Kane, I'm feeling much better about this match than when I first saw it. For one thing, Pluto's invisibility will be useless in this match, because as Kane's official bio states, he has "a bionic left eye with remote/infrared vision." This means Kane will be able to see Pluto on Infrared.

No it does not because Pluto is magically invisible and is not visible to any spectrum. Which is one of the reasons no Olympian may see him either....even those Olymnpians that can see in infrared.

Garrison Kane cannot download all mutant templates, as agreed upon. But, he would be able to download the templates of any or all of his Weapon X compatriots, with the exception of Madison's powers. Here is a list of available Weapon X compatriots: Mesmero, Aurora, Marrow, Sabretooth, Reaper, Sauron, Washout, Wild Child, and Wildside.

Now, think about Kane's already impressive abilities, like Metal Control, coupled with any of these numerous powers that Weapon X possesses. Mesmero alone could help Kane win against Pluto. Washout has already proven to be quite a threat in this contest so far. Yet, the biggest advantage is that Kane will have information on Pluto, and Pluto will go in cocky and arrogant without a bit of information on who Garrison Kane is....especially since Garrison Kane is originally from the future and the Weapon X program is a very hush-hush organization.

OK none of the pwoers above could do anything to harm Pluto. Pluto is not human nor is he subject to mind control. No one in marvel history has ever been able to control him apart from his wife and that was through love. Kane is outgunned here and what would he do against a sword made out of mystical flame or magical blasts of energy all at speeds above what he can reach. He certainly could not even grapple because simply Pluto could pull Kane apart (Kane's superstrength is far from Pluto's unenhanced class 75).

This battle is more unbalanced then words could describe and in conclusion, there is a reason why Pluto is considerred an eartly threat that it takes the most powerful Avengers' or Gods to thwart and that Kane is a mid level fighter that does not get called upon when the Earth faces extreme threats such as the ones Pluto can cause.

Just one thing to be even more clear, Pluto has defeated the Stranger in the past....yes the same one that can be seen in the presence of the Living Tribunal.

[Out of Battle] Unfortunately, I will not get to this much as I have many meeting tomorrow but i hope I have made myself clear to the voters[/out of battle]

Winner - Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

Just one point, as I'll refute most of what's said tommorow when I have time at work. We are not allowed to actually visit the site we are battling in before the battle. (Plus, if Pluto tried to visit Wakanda, all hell would break lose. Black Panther and the Wakandans are not ones to just sit around and let people enter their home.) Not once in either of our two seasons have any contestants actually gone to the location to check it out. You only get to rely on what you normally have available.

Also, I while Pluto is very powerful, I do want to point out one important thing:

"it has been alleged that Pluto is less powerful on Earth than he is in his own realm of Hades."

So, I question the stats provided; and, that quote comes from the Official Marvel Handbook Deluxe Edition. Plus, since he is the God of Hades, I can easily see that he isn't as powerful as when he's in his own realm.

Also, there is nothing in Pluto's stats that state people cannot see him when invisible to "all spectrums." I content that someone invisible will be visible with infrared. There is nothing that says otherwise. Just because it says that even Olympians cannot see him does not in any way mean it's because they cannot see infrared spectrums.

 

[Phaedrus45]

In none of Kane's affiliations, do I see one which allows him full access to the Avenger's database. And Pluto is a shady God, not one that is well known to many. To say Kane would have access to him is simply overstating his bounds because he does not have access to every database just because he has met a few heroes that do. His only information which he can get about Pluto is from Greek mythology. That is it. I strongly disagree on anything else.

Pluto has actually faced all three of the supergroups: The Avengers, The Defenders and The Champions. The groups that Garrison Kane is associated with, especially Weapon X, keeps track of many things happening in the superhuman community, especially since a few are associated with the underbelly of the U.S. government. Plus, there are plenty of information on the Olympian Gods, and in the 616 where the gods are known to actually exist, there would be even more information.

With regard to Wakanda, nothing prevents Pluto from teleporting around Wakanda. He can freely travel anywhere on Earth, has in the past and is not under some rule not to do so. He is just not supposed to collect souls of those that do not worship the Greek Gods. Therefore for him to take the 24 hours to do so is a very easy assumption that i can make given the extent of this God's powers.

As noted before, this is very incorrect. Even if your character can get to the location, you cannot visit the locations of the battles beforehand.

I grant however, that he may not know much about Kane's powers except on the off chance that the soul of a greek mutant that knew him happenned to be enchainned in tartarus or basking in the elysian fields, in which case he would get information (Pluto has full access to the souls under his charge and has used them many times in the past) on Kane. But I recognise that the chances are remote.

Well, I've never known Garrison Kane to fight the Greeks...plus, Kane is also from the future, and everything that went on before we knew him wouldn't be available for Pluto, who comes from the current timeline. So, I think there is not a chance Pluto would know anything about Kane.

What would be required to slay Pluto is nothing short of a nuclear bomb which would destroy Kane in the process. Extreme force is not a simple rocket or explosive device, let alone a ray. Pluto is a first generation Olympian, son of the Titan Cronus and the Titan Rhea. He is a brother to Zeus and the most powerful magic user (in the marvel universe because in greek mythology it would be hecate) among the Olympians.

Pluto is actually quite screwed by having to go to another location. I quote the following:

"Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

Yes there are a number of useful powers but is there protection against magic....hmm I do not think so. And everything about Pluto is magical.

But, Pluto's magic and powers are linked with Hades. Pluto is a great character and very dangerous; but, it would seem his Achilles Heel is that he needs to stay in his realm. (In fact, it would seem to be very true. I noticed that his interactions with The Avengers, The Defenders and The Champions usually involves having others fight on Earth and he doesn't actually dirty his hands there. It now makes sense, as his powers wane if he leaves his realm.)

Just one thing to be clear about Kane, I do not remeber seeing him controlling adamantium plus it is funny that when he was practicing his upgrade he never once used this metal controlling power.....You would think if he could control metal he would have simply just caused all the machines to be destroyed.

Even if you don't remember seeing him use his metal control powers or if a writer hasn't written him using these powers to his advantage in previous encounters, it is listed in the Official Handbook's current edition. If Marvel lists it as true, it is considered like The Bible. Kane has power of metal, period.

Ok lets be very clear, nothing of Pluto is within Kane's grasp as is inferred above. All of his equipment is inherently magical. His armour and helmet were created by the cyclops during the war with the Titans and are not natural metal objects. They created this using magics not unlike what Surtur used to create Mjollnir (in so far that they are not a process that can be replicated through science). To be abosultely honest, no one knows exactly what material Pluto's helmet or armour is made up of.

But, Pluto's magic works in conjuction with his proximity to Olympus. Pluto would love nothing more than take over all of Earth; but, with all his powers, you notice he sends lackeys to Earth to fight his battles. He doesn't go down and battle. If he was so powerful on Earth, then you'd see him leading his troops. It is now very clear that Pluto isn't very powerful on Earth.

This is not science but magic. There is no spectrum of light that would allow Kane to see Pluto if he is wearing his helmet plus that helmet is inherently magical as well, therefore would be undetectable to any metal controlling powers that Kane may have.

There is nothing about magic that says you cannot see someone in infrared. There body still gives off heat; and, they'd still be visible with infrared.

Winner = Garrison Kane

 

[Phaedrus45]

VERY IMPORTANT DEBATE POINTS TO KANE VS. PLUTO:

I want to point out some things about this debate that are very important. Already, there is quite a bit to read; but, I want to make sure some of the information I've discovered is realized by the voters.

*Pluto is actually quite screwed by having to go to leave his realm of Hades. I quote the following:

"Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

*I stated that Pluto will be very cocky and arrogant in going into this battle. In actuality, with the above information, it's very likely he will realize he might be screwed by having to leave his realm. He will be hoping that his opponent isn't very formidible. But, learning what I have about Garrison Kane, that isn't the case.

*Garrison Kane would be able to download the templates of any or all of his Weapon X compatriots, with the exception of Madison's powers. Here is a list of available Weapon X compatriots: Mesmero, Aurora, Marrow, Sabretooth, Reaper, Sauron, Washout, Wild Child, and Wildside.

*Like I said, it's very important to look at the appearances of Pluto in Marvel Comics. Voters may wonder why, if Pluto is so damn powerful, why his powers are ineffective on Earth. From one of Pluto's most recent appearances, the following explains.:

"Dr. Strange tells Pluto that he is destined to fail as his covenant with Zeus allows him to only hold sway over the dominion of the dead."

Zeus has a covenant on Pluto not allowing him dominion anywhere except Hades. And, by further looking at appearances, you will notice that Pluto is constantly using his hordes to attack, or needing assistance from other people in doing his bidding. For someone who is supposedly so powerful in the use of magic, the following really is revealing:

"Pluto says that if she is indeed Lorelei that she knows who he is because he knows that she is her sister’s superior. Pluto says that he needs a spell. He wants her, as the Enchantress has done in the past, to create a Valkyrie with the power over the dead."

If Pluto is such a powerful magic user, why does he need to constantly go to either The Enchantress or Lorelei for spells? The answer is simple; Pluto is not as powerful with magic as my opponent believes. Couple this with having to fight on Earth and not in his own realm, this battle continues to make the voters possibly rethink their original votes.

Winner = Garrison Kane

 

[Midnight Ice]

Protocide (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio

vs.

Baron Blood (DARTHPHERE) bio

I believe this could be an even fight at first, but would soon turn in protocide's favor. Protocide never gets tired or fatigued, so he can easily fight however long this takes. Baron Blood can get tired and will if Protocide drags the match on long enough. It wouldn't take too long for Baron Blood to find himself on the other side of Protocide's shiled.

Winner:Protocide

 

[Hellstormer]

I honestly do not see the connection between adaption and healing. If someone grows gills, or armor, there's nothing healing in that process. Now if she did something to adapt that included direct healing, then maybe it'd effect her, but I cant recall ever seeing her heal. And honestly, it's never been that devistating. It burnt away Sabretooth's hand (which is the effect on direct healing), it just kinda hurt Marrow's bone claws, and it just disoriented Fantomex. If for some reason it does hit Lifeguard, it sure won't be enough to take her out. And whose to say her adaption powers (which aren't healing powers) can't find a way to adapt to it anyhow without setting it off? She's not healing in any way, so I doubt anything will happen if he tried, but being that neither of us can prove that, it's up to the voters.

But you see IMO she gets injured and then her body adapts and fixes the problem. That's pretty much what healing is, but I don't think I can make you believe that so its up to the voters.

Nonetheless, it us unuseable. A guy can learn a lot in a couple years that he doesnt' know how to do now. The mention of his being able to take out teams of people with the stuff is irrelivent and is not allowed. I'll pull Phaed into it for his decision if necessary, but I'm telling you now, it's not an example that is to be used.

True but it shows what he could do, I personally think you're making too big a deal out of it.

Okay first off... show respect. I've never given wrong information for the heck of it, or lied to try and get a win. I've made mistakes here and there, but I correct them when they are brought to me. In this instance I may be mistaken, but don't go talking like I go about lying all the time or anything. I'd like to ask you to point out other times I've been wrong or misleading on my debates, giving wrong information. I'm curious to see where you came up with this thought.

I have a great deal of respect for you, I was referring to how you said the guy from the future isn't the same guy and that his absorbtion powers were caused by his armor. I wasn't trying to get you mad I was just surprised.

(and a note... if you want to talk about misrepresentation, we did say Maverick was in the tourney, not Agent Zero. But I should have caught that back in round one, so I won't say anything about it and let you have it)

You said in the rules its the most recent version of the character (and pre-M-day for mutants) and Agent Zero is still referred to by Maverick later on, its the same guy.

The point's moot.

That words really annoying.

I don't think he has anything that can get through her armor (being that he can try all day and it'd just keep strengthening to resist it). And even if he did manage to eventually do it, you have to remember that she's beating him in the process, and flying, and taking him into the air and dropping him, and throwing him into trees, and slashing at his armor and neck and mouth, and breaking his jaw, etc. She's not going to just sit there and let him try to put a hole in her.

Let's be honest here, Maverick is a far better tactician then Lifeguard. He's able to stand toe-to-toe with Wolverine and come out swinging (even before his corrosive, healing factor, and super strength) I doubt Lifeguard to hold up to Wolverine. A fall from a great height as shown to be a good thing for Maverick, the kinestic forces from impact will give him a huge boost which I believe can be seen in the Wolverine 94 or 95 annual (the one with Nightcrawler) or the Maverick ongoing.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Just one point, as I'll refute most of what's said tommorow when I have time at work. We are not allowed to actually visit the site we are battling in before the battle. (Plus, if Pluto tried to visit Wakanda, all hell would break lose. Black Panther and the Wakandans are not ones to just sit around and let people enter their home.) Not once in either of our two seasons have any contestants actually gone to the location to check it out. You only get to rely on what you normally have available.

Also, I while Pluto is very powerful, I do want to point out one important thing:

"it has been alleged that Pluto is less powerful on Earth than he is in his own realm of Hades."

So, I question the stats provided; and, that quote comes from the Official Marvel Handbook Deluxe Edition. Plus, since he is the God of Hades, I can easily see that he isn't as powerful as when he's in his own realm.

Also, there is nothing in Pluto's stats that state people cannot see him when invisible to "all spectrums." I content that someone invisible will be visible with infrared. There is nothing that says otherwise. Just because it says that even Olympians cannot see him does not in any way mean it's because they cannot see infrared spectrums.

I will adress 2 points here:

1. First off, it is alleged and no0t proven otherwise the marvel handbook would have said that. But in any case, Pluto is more powerful in his own realm then he is on earth but all the ratings cited above are in regard to powers he has WHEN NOT IN HIS REALM. When he is in his realm he has the ADDED powers of being able to manipulate the energies of the underworld. However, he does not have less powers on Earth.

2. If Appolo who is the Greek god of light, who sees all spectrums of it, cannot see Pluto when he is wearing his helmet of invisibility how is Kane with his cybernetic implants going to see it? This is simply not going to happen.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Pluto has actually faced all three of the supergroups: The Avengers, The Defenders and The Champions. The groups that Garrison Kane is associated with, especially Weapon X, keeps track of many things happening in the superhuman community, especially since a few are associated with the underbelly of the U.S. government. Plus, there are plenty of information on the Olympian Gods, and in the 616 where the gods are known to actually exist, there would be even more information.

Is Kane an agent of the government? No

Was he a member of the Avengers, Defenders or The Champions? No

Does he have regular access to the Avenger's database or to Strange's House? No

Therefore for him to find information outside of mythology seems to me to be very remote.

As noted before, this is very incorrect. Even if your character can get to the location, you cannot visit the locations of the battles beforehand.

my character could get there but Id di not know of the rule because someone claimed that his character was going to do that and I do not remember it being against the rules. But if it is, fine.

Well, I've never known Garrison Kane to fight the Greeks...plus, Kane is also from the future, and everything that went on before we knew him wouldn't be available for Pluto, who comes from the current timeline. So, I think there is not a chance Pluto would know anything about Kane.

Obviously, it was an extremely remote chance.

Pluto is actually quite screwed by having to go to another location. I quote the following:

"Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

First of all this was alleged. Second of all, Pluto has visited the earth on many an occassion. Third, he has never been seen to be not powerful. Last, if She Hulk was put down with a blast of hadean fire, so would kane.

But, Pluto's magic and powers are linked with Hades. Pluto is a great character and very dangerous; but, it would seem his Achilles Heel is that he needs to stay in his realm. (In fact, it would seem to be very true. I noticed that his interactions with The Avengers, The Defenders and The Champions usually involves having others fight on Earth and he doesn't actually dirty his hands there. It now makes sense, as his powers wane if he leaves his realm.)

Pluto is a King. He rarely has to fight his own battles as he has others fight for him. this does not mean he cannot fight. And just to prove that his power is not tied into his realm:

Zeus, noting Pluto's' increasingly ominous rebelliousness at council meetings of the Olympian pantheon, warned Pluto against attempting to overthrow him and sentenced him to remain monarch of Hades unless he could find a willing replacement. Eventually Pluto deceived Zeus's son Hercules into signing an agreement to become his successor. Pluto soon released Hercules from the agreement since hie found himself unable to leave the kingdom he so loved. Although Pluto decided not to forsake Hades entirely, he still wished to add new conquests to his kingdom. As a result Pluto has attempted to conquer Earth, using mutates from an alternate future as his soldiers, has tried unsuccessfully to set in motion the groundwork for overthrowing Zeus and conquering Olympus, and has even attempted to capture Odin. None of Pluto's' schemes of conquest have succeeded, but he is not deterred.

Now would Pluto seek to escape Hades if he thought he would be less powerful given he has a love of power. he chooses not to leave Hades often because 1. he loves it and 2. he loves his wife, Persephone who lives there.

Even if you don't remember seeing him use his metal control powers or if a writer hasn't written him using these powers to his advantage in previous encounters, it is listed in the Official Handbook's current edition. If Marvel lists it as true, it is considered like The Bible. Kane has power of metal, period.

The thing is you cannot cite to me references of him using it. So all we know is he has a degree of metal controlling powers. What we do not know is how powerful he is with it.

It is like superstrength, both Kane and Pluto have it but whereas Pluto is class 75 when unenhanced, Kane is vastly inferiour.

But, Pluto's magic works in conjuction with his proximity to Olympus. Pluto would love nothing more than take over all of Earth; but, with all his powers, you notice he sends lackeys to Earth to fight his battles. He doesn't go down and battle. If he was so powerful on Earth, then you'd see him leading his troops. It is now very clear that Pluto isn't very powerful on Earth.

I would like to know from where you infer that Pluto's magic works in conjunction with his proxiity to Olympus. there is nothing in the comic world which would allow you to state that. he has never been shown to be less powerfull because he was far away from Olympus.

For a time, he even spent a lengthy period on earth disguised as a crime lord.

There is nothing about magic that says you cannot see someone in infrared. There body still gives off heat; and, they'd still be visible with infrared.

I have answerred this above but I will re quote here:

If Appolo who is the Greek god of light, who sees all spectrums of it, cannot see Pluto when he is wearing his helmet of invisibility how is Kane with his cybernetic implants going to see it? This is simply not going to happen.


Winner = Pluto / Hades

 

[Ahura Mazda]

VERY IMPORTANT DEBATE POINTS TO KANE VS. PLUTO:


I will just respond to the very important points below and then make a conclusion.

I want to point out some things about this debate that are very important. Already, there is quite a bit to read; but, I want to make sure some of the information I've discovered is realized by the voters.

*Pluto is actually quite screwed by having to go to leave his realm of Hades. I quote the following:

"Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

1. Pluto is very powerful everywhere. Among his victories includes THE STRANGER which occurred in the Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5. He has never been afraid to leave his realm because of an alleged (meaning not verified) loss of power.

2. He decided to stay in Hades even when he had tricked Hercules into taking his place because of his love for his realm and his love for Persephone. There was no other reason.

3. I have never seen Pluto defeated in one on one combat which is what this is.

*I stated that Pluto will be very cocky and arrogant in going into this battle. In actuality, with the above information, it's very likely he will realize he might be screwed by having to leave his realm. He will be hoping that his opponent isn't very formidible. But, learning what I have about Garrison Kane, that isn't the case.

Going from the above to Pluto being in a losing position is ridiculous given the amount of times he has made trips to other realms. He has appeared in all of these comics

Avengers #163, 282-283
Avengers Annual #23
Champions #1, 3
Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5
Red Raven Comics #1
Thor #127-130, 163-164, 199-201, 221-223, 279, 462
Thor (2) #7
Thor Annual #10, 19

And he was not in Hades for most of them!

*Garrison Kane would be able to download the templates of any or all of his Weapon X compatriots, with the exception of Madison's powers. Here is a list of available Weapon X compatriots: Mesmero, Aurora, Marrow, Sabretooth, Reaper, Sauron, Washout, Wild Child, and Wildside.

Agreed except he did not seem to be able to access all of these potential powers at once. It seemed that he could do one at a time and not simultaneously, even though he can switch the powers realtively fast.

*Like I said, it's very important to look at the appearances of Pluto in Marvel Comics. Voters may wonder why, if Pluto is so damn powerful, why his powers are ineffective on Earth. From one of Pluto's most recent appearances, the following explains.:

"Dr. Strange tells Pluto that he is destined to fail as his covenant with Zeus allows him to only hold sway over the dominion of the dead."

Yes Strange said he was destinned to fail to conquer other realms not to defeat Kane, a mid-level fighter. And that convenant was made after the Olympians conquerred the Titans and they drew lots between the three brothers.

Zeus has a covenant on Pluto not allowing him dominion anywhere except Hades. And, by further looking at appearances, you will notice that Pluto is constantly using his hordes to attack, or needing assistance from other people in doing his bidding. For someone who is supposedly so powerful in the use of magic, the following really is revealing:

"Pluto says that if she is indeed Lorelei that she knows who he is because he knows that she is her sister’s superior. Pluto says that he needs a spell. He wants her, as the Enchantress has done in the past, to create a Valkyrie with the power over the dead."

This is not very revealing at all because of course he needs the help of an ASGARDIAN goddess to help create an ASGARDIAN plus Pluto's powers are destructive and not constructive. he does not create life, he takes it away, which is exactly what he would have ot do here.

Also, as a ruler he uses hordes. Like Doom uses hordes. It does not mean he cannot fight himself, quite the contrary.

If Pluto is such a powerful magic user, why does he need to constantly go to either The Enchantress or Lorelei for spells? The answer is simple; Pluto is not as powerful with magic as my opponent believes. Couple this with having to fight on Earth and not in his own realm, this battle continues to make the voters possibly rethink their original votes.

I beleive he went once and not constantly and the spells he needed were not spells of destruction which he excells in.

This battle is between one of Marvel's heavy hitters and a middleweight. The assumption made above are sometimes mind boggling and I say this politely. Pluto is considerably more powerful then Kane and most other Marvel characters on a one on one basis. e would take this battle with much more ease then what is suggested by my esteemed adversary.

Simply lets base it on a third party. How would Kane do against the Stranger, a nigh-omnipotent cosmic being that Pluto supposedly defeated and in case challenged (it is in this issue: Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5; it says on this website Pluto defeated him but my guess is that he battled him and somehow was thwarted through others). Something Kane could not remotely do.

Simply put, if Pluto is one of the most powerful Olympian Gods who faces powerful teams of Defenders (including Strange, Hulk and the Silver Surfer) or the Avengers (the Champions thwarted Pluto by telling Zeus what Pluto was doing therefore are not being mentionned) or cosmic beings like the Stranger. He has conversation with the cosmic entity Death. Kane is not much of a challenge to him.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

I will adress 2 points here:

1. First off, it is alleged and no0t proven otherwise the marvel handbook would have said that. But in any case, Pluto is more powerful in his own realm then he is on earth but all the ratings cited above are in regard to powers he has WHEN NOT IN HIS REALM. When he is in his realm he has the ADDED powers of being able to manipulate the energies of the underworld. However, he does not have less powers on Earth.

2. If Appolo who is the Greek god of light, who sees all spectrums of it, cannot see Pluto when he is wearing his helmet of invisibility how is Kane with his cybernetic implants going to see it? This is simply not going to happen.

I disagree on both points. Thor mentioned it, and since Pluto did not follow Thor or the Avengers (one of the Avengers stated how odd it was Pluto didn't continue his attack, since he seemed so powerful), Thor's saying that seems to hold up.

On the second, just because an Olympian cannot see Pluto doesn't stand to reason he doesn't give off a heat signature. Pluto does give off a heat signature; thus, he can be seen.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Rebuttal Points:

1. Pluto is very powerful everywhere. Among his victories includes THE STRANGER which occurred in the Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5. He has never been afraid to leave his realm because of an alleged (meaning not verified) loss of power.

Every indication shows that Pluto would love nothing more than to be ruler of Earth, Midgard, or whatever the Olympians call it. He spends most of his time in his realm plotting from afar. When he comes to Earth, like in The Defenders, it is mentioned how he's breaking a Covenant by Zeus, AND he had to bring Hades to Earth. Finally, it does say "alleged," but that alleged comes from the mouth of Thor, who knows his Gods. Every bit of evidence I've seen points to this being correct.

2. He decided to stay in Hades even when he had tricked Hercules into taking his place because of his love for his realm and his love for Persephone. There was no other reason.

This is wrong. It's because of the covenant by Zeus.

3. I have never seen Pluto defeated in one on one combat which is what this is.

But, you've never seen Pluto fight on Earth one on one, either...which this is.

Going from the above to Pluto being in a losing position is ridiculous given the amount of times he has made trips to other realms. He has appeared in all of these comics

Avengers #163, 282-283
Avengers Annual #23
Champions #1, 3
Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5
Red Raven Comics #1
Thor #127-130, 163-164, 199-201, 221-223, 279, 462
Thor (2) #7
Thor Annual #10, 19

And he was not in Hades for most of them!

He leaves his realm, yes. But, from what I see, most time he returns to it when it comes to him fighting. The fact is, Pluto has been around for a long time, but you just don't see him leave his realm hardly ever. There is a reason for that. He's powerful, but that is tied to his proximity to Hades.

Yes Strange said he was destinned to fail to conquer other realms not to defeat Kane, a mid-level fighter. And that convenant was made after the Olympians conquerred the Titans and they drew lots between the three brothers.

Pluto has been trying to break that Covenant constantly throughout his limited appearances in Marvel Comics. In truth, the Covenant, and his reason for defeat to Kane, is to keep him from using his vast power to take over any other realm, but his own. Zeus set up the covenant for a reason, and a power-mad ruler, like Pluto, needs those covenants to keep in check.

This is not very revealing at all because of course he needs the help of an ASGARDIAN goddess to help create an ASGARDIAN plus Pluto's powers are destructive and not constructive. he does not create life, he takes it away, which is exactly what he would have ot do here.

Also, as a ruler he uses hordes. Like Doom uses hordes. It does not mean he cannot fight himself, quite the contrary.

He used Hordes, because he knew he couldn't attack Midgard without it. And, it stated he went to the Enchantress quite frequently; thus, he's not anywhere in the league of some of the great magic users we know.

This battle is between one of Marvel's heavy hitters and a middleweight. The assumption made above are sometimes mind boggling and I say this politely. Pluto is considerably more powerful then Kane and most other Marvel characters on a one on one basis. e would take this battle with much more ease then what is suggested by my esteemed adversary.

The problem is Kane USED to be a middleweight. With his Weapon X power upgrade, he has turned into a character anyone in this contest would love to have on their team, I would dare to say. If Pluto takes him for granted, as I believe he would, then it only holds up that Kane will have another advantage over him. If I was a voter, I would rather face Pluto than Kane in future rounds, especially after his flaws have finally come to light.

Simply lets base it on a third party. How would Kane do against the Stranger, a nigh-omnipotent cosmic being that Pluto supposedly defeated and in case challenged (it is in this issue: Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5; it says on this website Pluto defeated him but my guess is that he battled him and somehow was thwarted through others). Something Kane could not remotely do.

First, we'd have to know what actually happened in that issue. Second, remember, The Hulk supposedly held up an entire mountain. How people write a comic and how believable it is can always be wondered. With the right writer, you could see Speedball thwart The Stranger. And, anyway, isn't The Stranger constantly being beat and foiled?

Simply put, if Pluto is one of the most powerful Olympian Gods who faces powerful teams of Defenders (including Strange, Hulk and the Silver Surfer) or the Avengers (the Champions thwarted Pluto by telling Zeus what Pluto was doing therefore are not being mentionned) or cosmic beings like the Stranger. He has conversation with the cosmic entity Death. Kane is not much of a challenge to him.

Again, the cockiness of Pluto should be held in check. If Kane is not such a challenge, this thread wouldn't be so long. This has actually turned out to be an excellent debate and a great battle. Kane has come out more impressive than most people originally would have given him credit for, and Pluto's shine has diminished.

Either way, I have to get ready to leave for work. We're going around and round in our debate, and I doubt there is much more either of us can say. Great debate...

and, WINNER = GARRISION KANE!!!!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I disagree on both points. Thor mentioned it, and since Pluto did not follow Thor or the Avengers (one of the Avengers stated how odd it was Pluto didn't continue his attack, since he seemed so powerful), Thor's saying that seems to hold up.

On the second, just because an Olympian cannot see Pluto doesn't stand to reason he doesn't give off a heat signature. Pluto does give off a heat signature; thus, he can be seen.

One regarding my first point:

"it has been alleged that Pluto is less powerful on Earth than he is in his own realm of Hades."

Therefore we can agree it is alleged as you wrote that yourself. Second, as Pluto has fought in other realms many times it would go that thor's argument does not hold up. Among his latest appearances, Pluto was a crimelord on Earth for a lengthy period of time. There was no signs of him being weak there. This whole strategy seems to be based on one comment made by Thor over 20 years ago.

On the Second,

He is an Olympian. He can walk next to a human without giving off heat. He is not human. He is an Olympian God. His helmet makes him magically untraceable. Plus he is the God of death. How do you know he gives off a heat signature. Do you know the average temparature of an Olympian god or his inner workings.....does Kane. Pluto does not even have blood. Ichor runs through his veins.

And Appollo is the Olympian God of light. His powers are greater then Kane's cybernetic implants. Also Artemis, is the goddess of the Hunt (she can sense body heat above and beyond Kane) and she cannot sense Pluto when he is wearing his helmet either. Is this logical...maybe not but MAGIC rarely is. This is a helmet created by the Cyclops to fight a battle against Titans. This is not something made on Earth by Tony Stark. There is no scientific basis to it.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I was thinking it's Wednesday. We still have another full day of debating. Anyway, I might refute a few things later in the day, but that's pretty much my final argument, as stated.

 

[Phaedrus45]

MY BIG DISCOVERY!!!!

Ok, I found out where you got your stats on Pluto. Now, if you want to use those stats, you should also mention what it says below them.

Special Limitations: Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms, due to his ability to manipulate the energies of the underworld

IN FACT, I want to point out something very important to the voters:

Here is what you presented to the voters:

Here are Pluto's abilities:

Intelligence: Normal (4/10)
Strength: Superhuman Class 75 (9/12)
Speed: Superhuman (6/10)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike regenerative (12/14)
Agility: Superhuman (6/7)
Reflexes: Superhuman (6/7)
Fighting Skills: Excellent hand-to-hand combatant, skilled in use of axe and sword
Superhuman physical powers: In addition to the above listed physical abilities, Pluto possesses virtual immortality; the ability to manipulate vast cosmic/mystical energies for numerous purposes including powerful force bolts, creating nearly impenetrable force fields, creating interdimensional apertures to transport himself across dimension, creating mystical flame (to which he is himself immune) or weapons of mystical flame; he can also weaken an opponent with his touch
Personal Weaponry: Battleaxe made of nearly indestructible adamantine through which he can focus his force bolts if he so chooses
Other Accessories: Can create various weapons as needed out of mystical flame, such as a spear or sword, whose touch can paralyze an opponent, Helmet of invisibility, enabling its wearer to be invisible to even other Olympians

Here is how it's layed out on the site:

Intelligence: Normal (4/10)
Strength: Superhuman Class 75 (9/12)
Speed: Superhuman (6/10)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike regenerative (12/14)
Agility: Superhuman (6/7)
Reflexes: Superhuman (6/7)
Fighting Skills: Excellent hand-to-hand combatant, skilled in use of axe and sword
Special Skills/Abilities: None known
Superhuman physical powers: In addition to the above listed physical abilities, Pluto possesses virtual immortality; the ability to manipulate vast cosmic/mystical energies for numerous purposes including powerful force bolts, creating nearly impenetrable force fields, creating interdimensional apertures to transport himself across dimension, creating mystical flame (to which he is himself immune) or weapons of mystical flame; he can also weaken an opponent with his touch
Superhuman Mental Powers: none
Special Limitations: Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms, due to his ability to manipulate the energies of the underworld
Source of Superhuman Powers: Pluto is a member of the race of superhumans known as the gods of Olympus
Personal Weaponry: Battleaxe made of nearly indestructible adamantine through which he can focus his force bolts if he so chooses
Other Accessories: Can create various weapons as needed out of mystical flame, such as a spear or sword, whose touch can paralyze an opponent, Helmet of invisibility, enabling its wearer to be invisible to even other Olympians

So, you purposefully left out that portion of the article you are citing to state powers. IF you are taking the one portion to prove Pluto's powers as truth, you have to accept everything it says as true. If you say that you believe everything BUT that part, you have to question the power ranking, too. (Now, I'm not saying you had to list his Special Limitations; but, it does show that you knew of the weakness and chose not to mention it. I will say I purposefully left in the word "alleged," even though I could have edited it out or just put in what Thor stated.)

Also, you got the information about Marvel Two-In-One from the same site. You failed to mention that Pluto might have defeated The Stranger in some fashion; but, in turn, he was defeated by two of Marvel's heros. Here is the quote:

Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5: sought to create "nether-hole" that would destroy the universe, fought and defeated the Stranger, was defeated by Thing and Hulk

There shows an obvious use of giving only partial information to the readers. But, I admit, it's up to me to find out the truth, and the truth has been discovered.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Final Rebuttal Points:

Every indication shows that Pluto would love nothing more than to be ruler of Earth, Midgard, or whatever the Olympians call it. He spends most of his time in his realm plotting from afar. When he comes to Earth, like in The Defenders, it is mentioned how he's breaking a Covenant by Zeus, AND he had to bring Hades to Earth. Finally, it does say "alleged," but that alleged comes from the mouth of Thor, who knows his Gods. Every bit of evidence I've seen points to this being correct.

One thing thor knows his Asgardian Gods not his Olympian Gods. he does not know them that well and they never were great allies.

This is wrong. It's because of the covenant by Zeus.

Actually you are wrong on this. Quoted from Marvel.

"Zeus, noting Pluto's' increasingly ominous rebelliousness at council meetings of the Olympian pantheon, warned Pluto against attempting to overthrow him and sentenced him to remain monarch of Hades unless he could find a willing replacement. Eventually Pluto deceived Zeus's son Hercules into signing an agreement to become his successor. Pluto soon released Hercules from the agreement since hie found himself unable to leave the kingdom he so loved."

Pluto was sentenced to remain a King of Hades until he found some one to replace him. After he had he decided that he did not want to leave the place he loved. There are no accounting for tastes, I grant you, but he was capable of leaving.

But, you've never seen Pluto fight on Earth one on one, either...which this is.

No it uis rare because he is a king that rarely needs to fight his own battles plus as a King he is supposed to use others to fight for him. However, he is a veteran of many wars and has fought in the past one on one albeit his foes were all powerful Titans.

He leaves his realm, yes. But, from what I see, most time he returns to it when it comes to him fighting. The fact is, Pluto has been around for a long time, but you just don't see him leave his realm hardly ever. There is a reason for that. He's powerful, but that is tied to his proximity to Hades.

Actually, it is rare to see Pluto at all. And it is even rarer to see him do battle on a personal level. Why...because he is very powerful and often he meets defeat when Zeus is made aware of his antics.

Pluto has been trying to break that Covenant constantly throughout his limited appearances in Marvel Comics. In truth, the Covenant, and his reason for defeat to Kane, is to keep him from using his vast power to take over any other realm, but his own. Zeus set up the covenant for a reason, and a power-mad ruler, like Pluto, needs those covenants to keep in check.

the convenant prevents him from ruling realms that are not ones of death. It does prevent him from fighting one off battles when he has no choice like here. The convenant does not limit his powers however.

He used Hordes, because he knew he couldn't attack Midgard without it. And, it stated he went to the Enchantress quite frequently; thus, he's not anywhere in the league of some of the great magic users we know.

As I stated above, Pluto's powers are destructive and are regarding death. he is lacking in constructive forms of magic but he has in the past created great force fields, battle weapons, and blasts of terrible power.

The problem is Kane USED to be a middleweight. With his Weapon X power upgrade, he has turned into a character anyone in this contest would love to have on their team, I would dare to say. If Pluto takes him for granted, as I believe he would, then it only holds up that Kane will have another advantage over him. If I was a voter, I would rather face Pluto than Kane in future rounds, especially after his flaws have finally come to light.

Pluto would in any case show up incognito so he would find out about kane before fighting him and a magic blast would be enough as Kane would have absolutely no protection against it.

First, we'd have to know what actually happened in that issue. Second, remember, The Hulk supposedly held up an entire mountain. How people write a comic and how believable it is can always be wondered. With the right writer, you could see Speedball thwart The Stranger. And, anyway, isn't The Stranger constantly being beat and foiled?

It is in continuity and therefore just as valid as anything els e used as an example above. And Pluto defeating the Staranger is not so unbelievable when you fully read about him and his powers. And to compare this to Speedball is taking the comparison a bit too far but then again claiming that Kane could defeat Pluto is also pretty bad.

And for the record, the hulk during Secret Wars Vol. 1 held up a 100 billion ton mountain or at least acted as a brace so that it would not crush everyone. This is not supposedly. This happenned in continuity. The Hulk has done even more impressive feats before and after.

Again, the cockiness of Pluto should be held in check. If Kane is not such a challenge, this thread wouldn't be so long. This has actually turned out to be an excellent debate and a great battle. Kane has come out more impressive than most people originally would have given him credit for, and Pluto's shine has diminished.

kane had nothing to do with it. The reason this battle has gone on is you. I also had another very long battle once and that was Vertigo against Kurse. the length of a thread does not reflect the actual challenges here.

Either way, I have to get ready to leave for work. We're going around and round in our debate, and I doubt there is much more either of us can say. Great debate...

I am at work doing this But hope you have a great day and this debate was a great one.



WINNER = PLUTO / HADES

 

[Ahura Mazda]

MY BIG DISCOVERY!!!!

Ok, I found out where you got your stats on Pluto. Now, if you want to use those stats, you should also mention what it says below them.

Special Limitations: Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms, due to his ability to manipulate the energies of the underworld

IN FACT, I want to point out something very important to the voters:

Here is what you presented to the voters:



Here is how it's layed out on the site:

Intelligence: Normal (4/10)
Strength: Superhuman Class 75 (9/12)
Speed: Superhuman (6/10)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike regenerative (12/14)
Agility: Superhuman (6/7)
Reflexes: Superhuman (6/7)
Fighting Skills: Excellent hand-to-hand combatant, skilled in use of axe and sword
Special Skills/Abilities: None known
Superhuman physical powers: In addition to the above listed physical abilities, Pluto possesses virtual immortality; the ability to manipulate vast cosmic/mystical energies for numerous purposes including powerful force bolts, creating nearly impenetrable force fields, creating interdimensional apertures to transport himself across dimension, creating mystical flame (to which he is himself immune) or weapons of mystical flame; he can also weaken an opponent with his touch
Superhuman Mental Powers: none
Special Limitations: Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms, due to his ability to manipulate the energies of the underworld
Source of Superhuman Powers: Pluto is a member of the race of superhumans known as the gods of Olympus
Personal Weaponry: Battleaxe made of nearly indestructible adamantine through which he can focus his force bolts if he so chooses
Other Accessories: Can create various weapons as needed out of mystical flame, such as a spear or sword, whose touch can paralyze an opponent, Helmet of invisibility, enabling its wearer to be invisible to even other Olympians

So, you purposefully left out that portion of the article you are citing to state powers. IF you are taking the one portion to prove Pluto's powers as truth, you have to accept everything it says as true. If you say that you believe everything BUT that part, you have to question the power ranking, too. (Now, I'm not saying you had to list his Special Limitations; but, it does show that you knew of the weakness and chose not to mention it. I will say I purposefully left in the word "alleged," even though I could have edited it out or just put in what Thor stated.)

That was an omission on my part but I did mention that statement above if you look to refute your argument. I do agree he is More powerful in Hades which does not make him not powerful elsewhere which is what you claimed. There is a nuance to what is stated.

Also, you got the information about Marvel Two-In-One from the same site. You failed to mention that Pluto might have defeated The Stranger in some fashion; but, in turn, he was defeated by two of Marvel's heros. Here is the quote:

Marvel Two-in-One Annual #5: sought to create "nether-hole" that would destroy the universe, fought and defeated the Stranger, was defeated by Thing and Hulk

There shows an obvious use of giving only partial information to the readers. But, I admit, it's up to me to find out the truth, and the truth has been discovered.

Actually I also stated in another quote that I did not know how he defeated the Stranger and then lost to the Hulk and the Thing. Plus it says he fought and defeated the Stranger and then he gets defeated by the Thing and the Hulk not that he fights them, which is strange in itself. For all I know he could get defeated by Zeus being made aware of what Pluto was doing.

In any case, I did not think that information was relevant to the point I was making in that he was able to defeat the Stranger which is itself a major feat.

In any case, it is no surprise (but well done in any case) to me that you found the website I got the information from. It is not like it was that obscure. and what you found should have no bearing on the decision that is being made here.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Here are some abilities available for Garrison Kane to additionally use:

Mesmero:

Mesmero was a mutant who had the ability to control the minds of others. Through a combination of careful planning and skill, he could also manipulate the minds of telepaths; though he had to take extreme care, as a telepath was much more prone to realizing/breaking his machinations than a non-psi. He could hypnotize people into doing what he wanted them to do, and alter their minds with false personalities and memories. He could also make them see him as a different person.

Aurora:

Aurora has the powers of flight and superhuman speed (theoretically able to approach light-speed). The greater her increase in speed, the more durable her body becomes.

Marrow:

Marrow is a mutant with the ability to enhance the growth of her skeletal structure. Initially this was uncontrollable, but after enhancement by a Skrull medical facility, and later by Weapon X, she can mostly control this, despite each enhancement having partially failed over time. She utilizes this power in many ways, including the creation of knuckle guards, spears, and projectile spikes. She also possesses a healing factor and enhanced immune system, much in the same vein as Wolverine since every time a bone is ripped out a wound remains which closes itself soon after.

(I cannot see Kane using Marrow's abilities at all.)

Sabretooth:

Sabretooth is a mutant with a number of both natural and artificial improvements to his physiology. His primary mutant power is an accelerated healing ability that allows him to regenerate damaged or destroyed areas of his body far beyond the capabilities of an ordinary human. He can regenerate organs such as missing eyes and large portions of flesh.

Sabretooth possesses superhumanly acute senses that are comparable to those possessed by certain animals. Sabretooth is able to see objects, with greater clarity, at much greater distances than an ordinary human. His sight is enhanced to the point that he can see with this same level of clarity in almost complete darkness, just like a nocturnal cat. This may be in part a result of being able to see into the infrared and ultraviolet portions of the spectrum. His sense of hearing is enhanced in a similar manner, allowing him to hear sounds that humans cannot. Sabretooth is able to use his highly developed sense of smell to track targets by scent. He is able to track targets with an impressive degree of success, even if the scent has been eroded by certain natural factors, such as weather conditions.

Reaper:

Reaper possessed the power to secrete paralytic neurotoxins through his skin. When introduced into a victim's bloodstream, their muscles locked down and they could not move without extreme pain. Reaper used a specially designed scythe to channel his powers into the bodies of anyone cut by its blade. Reaper had two cybernetic hands and a cybernetic leg. None of these artificial limbs seemed to have any superhuman abilities. While in the Ultraverse, Reaper was actually able to injure Juggernaut by simply slashing him with his scythe.

Weapon X upgrade

However, when he entered the Weapon X Program, he received upgrades to his mutant abilities and/or appearance like all new operatives. For Reaper, it was finally having organic limbs again, but these limbs also contained the added ability of being able to morph into a scythe-like blade for him to conduct his power through.

Sauron:

In human form Karl Lykos is fairly typical, except he keeps his ability to absorb the life forces of other living things to sustain himself. This often triggers his transformation into his pterodactyl form. If he absorbs the life force of a mutant he will absorb a fraction of their powers temporarily. In pterodactyl form he is superhumanly strong and possesses the ability to fly at a natural winged flight limit. At some point prior to his New Avengers appearances, he acquired an additional ability to breathe fire, which he used to burn the second Black Widow when she shot him in the head. It is also noted that he can enhance his body density and strength through some sort of Psionic enhancement that can be noted by his hands covered in a thin reddish-energy field. He also has a powerful mind control ability that may require eye contact to complete. He frequently uses his mind control power to give his victims terrifying delusions that allies have become monsters. He is also able to project a scream enhanced by pure psychic energy.

Washout:

Hydromorph able to transform himself into a watery substance that he can release as pressurized sprays, engulf and drown his opponents, harmlessly absorb impacts, or shape all or part of his body into tangible, water-based forms, manipulate other bodies of water, and explode someone from within using their body fluids.

Wild Child:

Kyle Gibney has superhuman senses, moderately enhanced strength and enhanced agility. His teeth and fingernails are hardened and strong enough to rend substances as thick as bone. His body heals at a rate several times greater than that of a normal human being but not at the rate of Sabretooth's healing factor. He also has various animal-like mutations common for 'feral' mutants: leaf-shaped ears, eyes with neither pupils nor irises, sharper-than-normal teeth with pronounced, fang-like canines and elongated fingernails, as well as his hunched body posture. He is an excellent hand-to-hand combatant.

Wildside:

Wildside's natural abilities include the power to disrupt an individuals sense of reality, causing them to see (or not see) certain object and to have wild hallucinations. However, Wildside often doesn't use his powers, as he prefers to inflict pain through more conventional means. To help him with this, he has long nails, and enhanced agility and reflexes (however it is unclear if this is actually a part of his mutation or just achieved through physical training).

Weapon X upgrade

However, when he entered the Weapon X Program, he received upgrades to his mutant abilities and/or appearance like all new operatives. For Wildside, he received techno-organic claws which he could extend and retract from his fingertips.

Additionally, here are additional characters from Weapon X:

Cecilia Reyes, Maggott, Ape, Tarbaby, Leech, Agent Brent Jackson a former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, the shapeshifter Copycat, Deadpool, Mauvais, Maverick, Jack-In-The-Box, and Chamber.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I am fine with the above but Kane can only use one power at a time as he has to download each one when he uses it, just as long as the powers are inherent. he cannot download granted powers such as techno-organic claws.


Kane does not use all those powers simultaneously

Plus he has no experience in using any of the powers listed above as he has never used them in the past.

Pluto on the other hand is immortal and can count on millenia of experience using his powers and weaponry. And lets not forget as a God who is the ruler of the realm of the Dead he is immune to any of the mutant mind controlling tricks listed above.

But one thing I would like to ask, and this is a question of ruling, if you can go and download all these new powers why couldn't Mimic copy a whole bunch of powers during his 24 hours of prep time? It does not seem very fair that Kane just for this battle gets a whole bunch of new powers when Mimic could not....

 

[Phaedrus45]

I am fine with the above but Kane can only use one power at a time as he has to download each one when he uses it, just as long as the powers are inherent. he cannot download granted powers such as techno-organic claws.


Kane does not use all those powers simultaneously

Plus he has no experience in using any of the powers listed above as he has never used them in the past.

Here is one quote:

Kane was further enhanced with the ability to download powers catalogued by Weapon X into his cybernetics and use them in combat.

In everything I've read, there is nothing that says he can only use one at a time. It says he can download powers that are catalogued and use them in combat; and that's it. If he can download powers in prep-time, he can also use his 24 hours to train with those powers he wants to use, and there is nothing that says they cannot be used simutaneously.

There Is Nothing that states he cannot use powers simutaneously!!! He can download the catalogued powers and use them in combat as needed.

Pluto on the other hand is immortal and can count on millenia of experience using his powers and weaponry. And lets not forget as a God who is the ruler of the realm of the Dead he is immune to any of the mutant mind controlling tricks listed above.

Yes, he is the ruler of the realm of the Dead. And, it is in that realm that he's most powerful, and outside the realm, his powers diminish greatly.

But one thing I would like to ask, and this is a question of ruling, if you can go and download all these new powers why couldn't Mimic copy a whole bunch of powers during his 24 hours of prep time? It does not seem very fair that Kane just for this battle gets a whole bunch of new powers when Mimic could not....

I will cut and paste this to JH for a decision. I would think Mimic's powers are different from what we have with Garrison Kane. But, we'll leave it up to him.