Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

[gambitfire]

You guys started a group support thingy or...?

Care to join? It's called the underappreciated characters of the X groups.

I KNOW. What's up with everyone thinking a Vaughn x-flick would've been great? Wasn't he in favor of the 'killing cyke asap' thingy anyway?

I don't care for Vaughn, i just feel even with the horrible changes he still could of pased a better film.

I still would of disliked it though, but probably alot less than this one. Just an assumption based on what we know. *shrugs*

........

 

[gambitfire]

It happened under his watch.

The script that everyone hates so much was written under his supervision. Everyone talks about how the script hardly changed from the script reviewed on AICN, well, the script reviewed by AICN was that Kinberg and Penn wrote with direction from Vaughn. Vaughn wanted the movie to be contriversial. Many of the mistakes, in terms of creative decisions, came from Vaughn's watch. It's another reason why I think that Kinberg and Penn sometimes get unjustly blamed around here for the errors of this movie, because a lot of it was by Vaughn's influence.

Accept for some questionable dialogue, I think that Kinberg and Penn wrote a pretty decent script. It was creative input from Vaughn, and possible lack of talent from Ratner (along with some bad writing, yes, because they aren't blameless) that resulted in many of the errors the film suffers from.

I'm sorry but i don't recall Vaughn being the sole reason for the choices made in the film. As far as i knew the studio had Cyke out before Vaughn even thought of it.

Is there written proof of this?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm sorry but i don't recall Vaughn being the sole reason for the choices made in the film. As far as i knew the studio had Cyke out before Vaughn even thought of it.

Is there written proof of this?

I don't remember the exact time frame of when Vaughn was hired and everything, but I never heard talks of Cyclops being killed off until Marsden went to Superman. And even then, I never remember it being studio mandated, but Kinberg's response that "we came up with this great way to work within Marsden's limited availability"

I don't have links, sorry, but I did see it in a video interview way early in the process.

And I do know that Vaughn wanted to kill off characters. I never heard that talk until Vaughn came on, and I thought it was rubbish then, and it's stull rubbish after being brought to the big screen.

 

[gambitfire]

Well actually i clearly remember The writers stating that they had no choice the Studio wanted Cyclops out of the picture.

But, the Cyke rumor didn't happen till the script leak. I dunno who was around at that time. *shrugs*

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well actually i clearly remember The writers stating that they had no choice the Studio wanted Cyclops out of the picture.

But, the Cyke rumor didn't happen till the script leak. I dunno who was around at that time. *shrugs*

By the time the script leaked, I think Ratner was on board. But the script that leaked was the one written under Vaughn.

And before I heard anything about studio mandates, I was hearing about Vaughn's desire to kill off characters, and Kinberg talking about this "GREAT" way to deal with Marsden's limited availbility.

 

[gambitfire]

Yes but like i said regardless, The writers said so themselves what the studio wanted.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Yes but like i said regardless, The writers said so themselves what the studio wanted.

The writers have said a whole bunch of different things.

The writers have said it was the studio, and they have said it was their own idea, to showcase how powerful Phoenix was, and how much of a threat she was, that if she could kill the man she loved, that anyone was fair game.

I've come to learn that what the filmmakers of this film say is to be taken with a grain of salt. Kinberg also said there was no contriversey over Gambit, and that it was just the fan hype that made it seem as such...

 

[gambitfire]

*sigh* Ok fine you go on and blame Vaughn for Cyke's demise. I'm sure FOX had nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying i'm right just that you shouldn't jump on the boat and blame Vaughn.

I need to start taking you with a grain of salt.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

*sigh* Ok fine you go on and blame Vaughn for Cyke's demise. I'm sure FOX had nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying i'm right just that you shouldn't jump on the boat and blame Vaughn.

I need to start taking you with a grain of salt.

My point isn't to point blame at Vaughn or Fox.

It's that things weren't going to be much better under Vaughn.

I have heard things that have indicated it was a creative decision to kill Cyclops, and that they WANTED to do it. There have been things to indicate that it was studio mandated.

I wasn't there. So I don't know what really went down. What I do know is what I see on screen everytime I watch the movie, and that is that Cyclops DOES die, and it pisses me off everytime. Cyclops, James Marsden, and the fans, deserved so much more. There was so much promise for Cyclops getting his moment to shine with that ending from X2, and we didn't get it. And I don't know where the blame lies.

I do know that it came while Vaughn was attatched, and Kinberg stated they have come up with a great way to deal with Marsden's limited availability. So take that for what you will.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Meh, I have no objection with the 'partly blame Vaughn' thingy.

I mean, look at Layer Cake. The ending didn't make any sense, even when compared to other similar ending in gangster movies.

I suppose you could say it's "witty" to have the main character killed by a low-life punk after surviving hitmen and mobsters, but the fact is there was absolutely no f****n other reason for the girl and said punk to be in the movie. Kinda like Whalberg in the departed. Only arguably worse.

Vaughn just offed Craig's character for the hell of it. It's not much of a stretch to think he'd do it for Cyke, really.

 

[UraniaChang]

I think they probably all had a part in this lousy Cyke-off decision making...there is no way that just one of them came up with a stupid idea of killing important character and the rest of them happily embraced it with no objection.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

My point isn't to point blame at Vaughn or Fox.

It's that things weren't going to be much better under Vaughn.

I have heard things that have indicated it was a creative decision to kill Cyclops, and that they WANTED to do it. There have been things to indicate that it was studio mandated.

I wasn't there. So I don't know what really went down. What I do know is what I see on screen everytime I watch the movie, and that is that Cyclops DOES die, and it pisses me off everytime. Cyclops, James Marsden, and the fans, deserved so much more. There was so much promise for Cyclops getting his moment to shine with that ending from X2, and we didn't get it. And I don't know where the blame lies.

I do know that it came while Vaughn was attatched, and Kinberg stated they have come up with a great way to deal with Marsden's limited availability. So take that for what you will.

And this is where the problem comes in Nell. The blame fully goes on Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman. It seems you're not understanding that all three have contradicted themselves in terms of Cyclops.

Kinberg and Penn have both said many times it was THEIR idea. They wanted to show how "dangerous Jean was" and that if she could "kill the man she loves, then no one is safe."

Those were their exact words. I don't know if I blame Vaughn or not since he didn't film anything nor did was he involved from the beginning. However, the blame for what happened to Cyclops lies solely on Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

And this is where the problem comes in Nell. The blame fully goes on Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman. It seems you're not understanding that all three have contradicted themselves in terms of Cyclops.

Kinberg and Penn have both said many times it was THEIR idea. They wanted to show how "dangerous Jean was" and that if she could "kill the man she loves, then no one is safe."

Those were their exact words. I don't know if I blame Vaughn or not since he didn't film anything nor did was he involved from the beginning. However, the blame for what happened to Cyclops lies solely on Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman.

Oh, I do not believe in the least bit that Vaughn is blameless in this.

Before he came along, the script that had Cyclops dying off was non-existant. It could have been in Kinberg or Penn's drafts somewhere, but when Vaughn came around, he was the one talking about how he wanted to have contriversial decisions that would have the audience on the brink of tears. The character death talks started after he arrived, not before.

Do I believe that Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman have their share of the blame? Absolutley. You are absolutley right that Kinberg and Penn (or at least Kinberg) stated that it was a creative decision to show how dangerous Jean was. Penn heavily implied in his final posts over at X-Verse that it was studio mandated, though he refused to go into any detail about it. Rothman has a history of holding a grudge, as shown in his throwing Singer off the Fox lot. And the death talks came after Vaughn started talking about killing characters. And the script that killed off Cyclops was written under Matthew Vaughn. The AICN script that was reviewed was the 6 day script written under Vaughn.

So I think there's blame to go around for everyone.

Kinberg and Penn say Cyclops wasn't even supposed to be in the movie at all, and they had to fight to get him in just long enough to kill him off.

Kinberg said Cyclops' death was a creative decision to show Jean's true potential.

That's a blatant contradiction there.

I don't know where the blame lies, but I don't think anyone involved is blameless.

What I don't get is how you say I don't understand that Kinberg and Penn contradicted themselves about Cyclops, and how they said it was their decision to show that "nobody is safe", when I said EXACTLY that they contradicted themselves, and that they said it was a creative decision to show Phoenix's destructiveness in the very post of mine that you quoted:

I have heard things that have indicated it was a creative decision to kill Cyclops, and that they WANTED to do it. There have been things to indicate that it was studio mandated.

 

[gambitfire]

My point isn't to point blame at Vaughn or Fox.

You need to work more on getting your message across properly and ramlbing less.

It's that things weren't going to be much better under Vaughn.

I havn't said otherwise, i would assume so too. I stated i was going to dislike the film either way. I do however believe that under Vaught the film would of had atleast better pacing.

I have heard things that have indicated it was a creative decision to kill Cyclops, and that they WANTED to do it. There have been things to indicate that it was studio mandated.

I dunno, everything is there in giant bold letters. It's common sense, the studio politics are clearly there. It's up to you wheather you choose too give them the benefit of the doubt.

I wasn't there. So I don't know what really went down. What I do know is what I see on screen everytime I watch the movie, and that is that Cyclops DOES die, and it pisses me off everytime. Cyclops, James Marsden, and the fans, deserved so much more. There was so much promise for Cyclops getting his moment to shine with that ending from X2, and we didn't get it. And I don't know where the blame lies.

I do know that it came while Vaughn was attatched, and Kinberg stated they have come up with a great way to deal with Marsden's limited availability. So take that for what you will.

Well the writers can claim it was for creative reasons, but the fact of the matter is that if the big boss says no Cyke, you need to find a creative way around that.

I can blame everyone attached to the project, but the big finger and power lies in the studio. What FOX says goes. Even though i think lowly of the writers at this point.

 

[CapBeerCino]

It's in german, but young Marsden looks like Cyke in Evolution, no? -

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9tm9attMqzY

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

It's in german, but young Marsden looks like Cyke in Evolution, no? -

Dear god.

While I have no problem with Marsden being Cyke and can't really think of anyone that looks more the part than Marsden-2k6...

God, with these kind of shots I'm reminded why some complained that he was just too pretty to play Cyke, lol. t:

 

[UraniaChang]

It's in german, but young Marsden looks like Cyke in Evolution, no?

Thanks, he does look really young in there.

God, with these kind of shots I'm reminded why some complained that he was just too pretty to play Cyke, lol.

Isn't that a little picky, I know I certainly won't complain about Hugh Jackman being too good looking and too tall for playing Wolverine.t:

Besides, doesn't Cyclops always get called pretty boy?

 

[ntcrawler]

I don't remember the exact time frame of when Vaughn was hired and everything, but I never heard talks of Cyclops being killed off until Marsden went to Superman. And even then, I never remember it being studio mandated, but Kinberg's response that "we came up with this great way to work within Marsden's limited availability"

Of course now we know that in retrospect Marsden's availability wasn't all that "limited", since he even had time to return to do more shooting, no doubt to perft the infamous "the camera suddenly ran out of film" scene at Alkali Lake. IIRC Anna also had limited availability yet her character managed to have more to do and managed to not die in some unbelievable way. As for Cyke being killed off? That was just about FOX's original plan. No Scott or Jean in X3. Then it changed to "fine, you can have Scott and Jean. But they need to die" to make more room for other characters and spin-offs.

And I do know that Vaughn wanted to kill off characters. I never heard that talk until Vaughn came on, and I thought it was rubbish then, and it's stull rubbish after being brought to the big screen.

Killing off chars is one thing. But to go through the cast like a 24-pack of Mountain Dew or like a shopping checklist is something else, especially when the plot is suspiciously... adjusted to accomplish those death (aka he just HAPPENED to die or he just HAPPENED to be standing there when the grand piano just HAPPENED to fall on him or when his super-powerful fiancee just HAPPENED to lose control).



FOX's hype is up. The viewers have figured out and know the truth now behind X3 and the story that they made it out to be

 

[UraniaChang]

Welcome back ntcrawler, you've been away for quite some time, glad that you come back to join us!

 

[ntcrawler]

Welcome back ntcrawler, you've been away for quite some time, glad that you come back to join us!

Like Cyclops says to Magneto in X3 The Finest Hour:

"Don't give up until you find the body!"

I had things to deal with. They have been dealt with.

You and the rest of the team kept and defended the faith. You made a marvelous, Great Stand and takikng into account Hollywood's reaction it appears that your efforts are paying off. Definitely for other franchises and it raises hope that a kinder light will shine upon the X-men as well. Seeing that, I couldn't bare to stay away any longer. Thank you!

 

[CapBeerCino]

Like Cyclops says to Magneto in X3 The Finest Hour:

"Don't give up until you find the body!"

I had things to deal with. They have been dealt with.

You and the rest of the team kept and defended the faith. You made a marvelous, Great Stand and takikng into account Hollywood's reaction it appears that your efforts are paying off. Definitely for other franchises and it raises hope that a kinder light will shine upon the X-men as well. Seeing that, I couldn't bare to stay away any longer. Thank you!

ntcrawler!!! :heart: :meow:
Hollywood reaction? What did I miss?

 

[ntcrawler]

ntcrawler!!! :heart: :meow:
Hollywood reaction? What did I miss?

Hello, CCC!!! [salutes and waves]

Nice to see the family healthy and strong! PM me and I'll be happy to fill in the blanks. Which is probably nothing compared to the amount of catching up I'll have to do around here with all these posts!

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

ntcrawler!!! :heart: :meow:
Hollywood reaction? What did I miss?

Yeah? What's up with that?

Vaughn, Kinberg and Penn will never be allowed to write anything or...?

Rothman was hit by a lightning bolt and there's been a cover up?

 

[Angamb]

just a curiositty, what's the best film of James, in your opinion?

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Like Cyclops says to Magneto in X3 The Finest Hour:

"Don't give up until you find the body!"

I had things to deal with. They have been dealt with.

You and the rest of the team kept and defended the faith. You made a marvelous, Great Stand and takikng into account Hollywood's reaction it appears that your efforts are paying off. Definitely for other franchises and it raises hope that a kinder light will shine upon the X-men as well. Seeing that, I couldn't bare to stay away any longer. Thank you!

care to elaborate on this Hollywood thing?

And welcome back