Daredevil Daredevil General Discussion Thread - Part 8

[Spider-Fan]

Saying Elektra was slightly lackluster is not sexist at all. I found her and the overall Hand/Elektra storyline to be season 2's weakest elements. That continued into Defenders, where Elektra was super boring. This version of Elektra I think is definitely a slight disappointment relative to her comic counterpart. In the Daredevil comics, the death of Elektra is among the best moments. In the show, I wasn't that invested. That says something.

 

[DyeLorean]

Saying Elektra was slightly lackluster is not sexist at all. I found her and the overall Hand/Elektra storyline to be season 2's weakest elements. That continued into Defenders, where Elektra was super boring. This version of Elektra I think is definitely a slight disappointment relative to her comic counterpart. In the Daredevil comics, the death of Elektra is among the best moments. In the show, I wasn't that invested. That says something.

 

[pixen]

Saying Elektra was slightly lackluster is not sexist at all. I found her and the overall Hand/Elektra storyline to be season 2's weakest elements. That continued into Defenders, where Elektra was super boring. This version of Elektra I think is definitely a slight disappointment relative to her comic counterpart. In the Daredevil comics, the death of Elektra is among the best moments. In the show, I wasn't that invested. That says something.

I think you can separate character from storyline. I had issues with her storyline in Daredevil but more so in Defenders (they really neutered the Hand). I think she was exciting. I think saying it’s sexism is a general statement that isn’t how everyone feels. But it is something that female characters do experience more than male because of what was previously brought up. Though it irked me when people put all the blame on the her for making Matt be awful to everyone in his life when he made those decisions to ignore them and be Daredevil.

I thought Elodie Yung’s acting and her chemistry with Matt/Charlie was the best part of her showing up. Her ability to bring some excitement among all the dark sadness was also something I really enjoyed and want to come back. I will agree, The Defenders kind of ruined her though.

To be fair, I think Fisk is a little overrated. Vincent’s performance seems so put on sometimes and falls flat. It helps when Vanessa is around as she helps you feel a little more for him... though she is superior to him in every way possible.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think you can separate character from storyline. I had issues with her storyline in Daredevil but more so in Defenders (they really neutered the Hand). I think she was exciting. I think saying it’s sexism is a general statement that isn’t how everyone feels. But it is something that female characters do experience more than male because of what was previously brought up.

I thought Elodie Yung’s acting and her chemistry with Matt/Charlie was the best part of her showing up. Her ability to bring some excitement among all the dark sadness was also something I really enjoyed and want to come back. I will agree, The Defenders kind of ruined her though.

Are people more critical of female characters than male ones? It's an argument that can be made, but you can't make a general statement like complaining about her in the show is sexist when even you yourself had issues with how she was handled. I think people are pointing out real problems her plotline had.

That said, I don't think Elodie Yung was the problem. Much like Finn Jones, I think the real issue was the writing. She was not written as compellingly as she could have been. For example, the show makes a big deal out of her being the Hand's Black Sky, but neither DD or Defenders explains what that means. From what I can see, it just means she is tougher than an average ninja. The whole plot line just came off as sloppy, which hurt her the most. I think they had a decent potential storyline for her, but it just didn't work like they wanted.

 

[pixen]

I can like a portrayal of a character and not enjoy some of what the character goes through.

The Hand should have been treated like a crazy cult and the Black Sky should have been an idol that was worshipped and would lead the cult to ruling the city/world. Add a little mystery to it and make it feel like an actual threat. It should have felt a little more like The Hand we experienced in Season 1 and not the business suits that we saw in The Defenders. Alexandra should have been The Beast that was stuck in a dying body and clinging onto the Hand... the Black Sky could have even been this final thing that would bring the group back to dominance but instead doesn’t save the crumbling idea of a one great cult. Play off the themes of false idol worship and how one can make their own life path. Allowing Elektra to have an arc... making her own path and conquering that mountain she was told she could never climb. I feel like this would make The Hand more like it’s comic book counterpart while not making it about some dragon bones in the ground. Or something along those lines and not just some businessmen and Bakuto (ugh!). [apologies if this is a little scattered but it gives you the general idea of how The Hand could have been shown as an interesting concept]

I often wonder how Elektra and Punisher would have been handled if Steven DeKnight stayed on to showrun the second season. Because I feel like he had a completely different idea for the Black Sky.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

I absolutely love this series man. Honestly, it would be a crushing shame to me if it was cancelled, but I will admit that enough loose ends were tied up this season that I can see how it could be a pretty satisfying series finale. If this is the end its one hell of a way to go out, but I hope it isn't.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Saying Elektra was slightly lackluster is not sexist at all. I found her and the overall Hand/Elektra storyline to be season 2's weakest elements. That continued into Defenders, where Elektra was super boring. This version of Elektra I think is definitely a slight disappointment relative to her comic counterpart. In the Daredevil comics, the death of Elektra is among the best moments. In the show, I wasn't that invested. That says something.

See, I love their Elektra, and I have a hard time comparing anything to Frank Miller's work unfavorably. I get he was a big deal back in the day, but I don't think his work has aged well at all. I find the best thing about him is others taking his ideas and making them a lot better. Like Nolan.

A lot of Elektra's storyline is tied to the weak aspect of the Hand, but her character and her relationship with Matt and Stick work really well imo. All her scenes with Matt are top notch, as they have incredible chemistry imo. Kinbaku is one of my favorite hours of Marvel television because of it. I love the contrast between her, Matt and Frank. She presents Matt with a similar issue as Frank, but it is far more complicated given their history and Elektra's general attraction to violence. Frank was broken, almost made the way he was through training and circumstance. Elektra is a much more a natural born killer. Someone just drawn to violence. I thought it was quite smart to present her right after Frank. To see how Matt handles it in comparison to how he handled Frank.

I want to see her comeback, not tied to the Hand. It has a lot of potential, especially with Bullseye around.

 

[Spider-Fan]

See, I love their Elektra, and I have a hard time comparing anything to Frank Miller's work unfavorably. I get he was a big deal back in the day, but I don't think his work has aged well at all. I find the best thing about him is others taking his ideas and making them a lot better. Like Nolan.

A lot of Elektra's storyline is tied to the weak aspect of the Hand, but her character and her relationship with Matt and Stick work really well imo. All her scenes with Matt are top notch, as they have incredible chemistry imo. Kinbaku is one of my favorite hours of Marvel television because of it. I love the contrast between her, Matt and Frank. She presents Matt with a similar issue as Frank, but it is far more complicated given their history and Elektra's general attraction to violence. Frank was broken, almost made the way he was through training and circumstance. Elektra is a much more a natural born killer. Someone just drawn to violence. I thought it was quite smart to present her right after Frank. To see how Matt handles it in comparison to how he handled Frank.

I want to see her comeback, not tied to the Hand. It has a lot of potential, especially with Bullseye around.

I don't agree. The Elektra storyline in Miller's run has all the good aspects of a Miller story without all the garbage he started doing in more recent work. This was before his unhealthy infatuation with buildings and writing women as basically porn stars. His writing still had depth in this point in time. There are elements to Elektra I like in the season, but as you said, her story is tied to the larger boringness that is the Hand and their unexplained plot involving a Black Sky. It's not something I can over look.

I also think the 2nd half of season 2 of Daredevil becomes guilty of being 2 shows: 1 a backdoor pilot for the Punisher (which DD is only minimally involved) and the other Daredevil/Elektra vs the Hand. Once the show diverges, the show completely writes off the storyline between Matt and Karen in favor of Elektra and Matt, and I don't think the transition is overtly clean. Mainly because Karen has next to no screen time with Matt in the backhalf because she becomes a supporting cast member for Punisher's backdoor pilot. I wish the season had more overall focus.

 

[Zyraquis]

For what little screen time she has, I’m more intrigued by Vanessa, who is far more nuanced and layered, than Elektra, who is just a crazy b** with a thirst for blood in this show, and came back being even more bloodthirsty. Chop chop kill kill. Video game mode on. I think Kingpin is way way better portrayed hands down no comparison. I don’t even see why Elektra is such a big deal but I don’t real comics. It’s fine she is there but I really don’t miss her.

 

[Iceman]

I need to see more from Vanessa by the Kingpin's side. The sinister side of her is interesting to explore.

 

[Iceman]

I absolutely love this series man. Honestly, it would be a crushing shame to me if it was cancelled, but I will admit that enough loose ends were tied up this season that I can see how it could be a pretty satisfying series finale. If this is the end its one hell of a way to go out, but I hope it isn't.

Same here. I really, really want more. But if this is the end then they've done themselves proud.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Same here. I really, really want more. But if this is the end then they've done themselves proud.

Agreed. It works as a finale if need be, but I want to see more seasons!!!

 

[Iceman]

Agreed. It works as a finale if need be, but I want to see more seasons!!!

If the future villains are going to get the Kingpin, Bullseye, Punisher level treatment then the human race needs more seasons of Daredevil.

 

[kguillou]

Can we just have the creative team for this do the other shows from now on? These guys clearly have an appreciation for the comic books that is just lacking in the other shows. These guys would've done wonders with Iron Fist if they were in charge of that show and it wouldn't have gotten canceled. Instead they keep hiring people who have no passion for the material and are borderline ashamed of it and now look where we are. The showrunner and writers for Daredevil have an obvious love for the material and lore and it shows. There were so many little touches that they did that you could tell was to make the fans happy that I appreciated, even something as small and minute as having Fisk wear his iconic white suit throughout the whole season made the fan in me smile.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Can we just have the creative team for this do the other shows from now on? These guys clearly have an appreciation for the comic books that is just lacking in the other shows. These guys would've done wonders with Iron Fist if they were in charge of that show and it wouldn't have gotten canceled. Instead they keep hiring people who have no passion for the material and are borderline ashamed of it and now look where we are. The showrunner and writers for Daredevil have an obvious love for the material and lore and it shows. There were so many little touches that they did that you could tell was to make the fans happy that I appreciated, even something as small and minute as having Fisk wear his iconic white suit throughout the whole season made the fan in me smile.

That is not practical. The production of the shows overlap, so having 1 person run all of them is just not feasible.

 

[BaronZemo]

Can we just have the creative team for this do the other shows from now on? These guys clearly have an appreciation for the comic books that is just lacking in the other shows. These guys would've done wonders with Iron Fist if they were in charge of that show and it wouldn't have gotten canceled. Instead they keep hiring people who have no passion for the material and are borderline ashamed of it and now look where we are. The showrunner and writers for Daredevil have an obvious love for the material and lore and it shows. There were so many little touches that they did that you could tell was to make the fans happy that I appreciated, even something as small and minute as having Fisk wear his iconic white suit throughout the whole season made the fan in me smile.

No, we cant because tv shows dont work that way and metzner who did if s2 is actually anhuge iron fist fan thats why s2 was pretty solid.

Ifmyou want to blame someone blame perlmutter qho.is not.giving them the necessary budget. The fact that marvel tv has vy far the best cb shows despite that is a testament to loeb and co.

If onlyost ofmyou have any idea in what budget the marvel shows work with,.you would be shocked.

 

[djsunyc]

Can we just have the creative team for this do the other shows from now on? These guys clearly have an appreciation for the comic books that is just lacking in the other shows. These guys would've done wonders with Iron Fist if they were in charge of that show and it wouldn't have gotten canceled. Instead they keep hiring people who have no passion for the material and are borderline ashamed of it and now look where we are. The showrunner and writers for Daredevil have an obvious love for the material and lore and it shows. There were so many little touches that they did that you could tell was to make the fans happy that I appreciated, even something as small and minute as having Fisk wear his iconic white suit throughout the whole season made the fan in me smile.

to be fair, daredevil is such a more relatable character b/c religion makes up such a huge part of his story. whereas iron fist is totally not grounded (or as grounded as you can be when dealing with comic books) in any way whatsoever. trying to make that work is tough. it would need to be on some game of thrones level stuff with the budget to back it up.

 

[kguillou]

to be fair, daredevil is such a more relatable character b/c religion makes up such a huge part of his story. whereas iron fist is totally not grounded (or as grounded as you can be when dealing with comic books) in any way whatsoever. trying to make that work is tough. it would need to be on some game of thrones level stuff with the budget to back it up.

Eh, not necessarily. Yes, some of the K'un Lun stuff would no doubt need a decent budget but all Iron Fist had to do was be like Daredevil, a street vigilante show but with more emphasis on Kung Fu and mysticism and it would've been a great time and i dont think that wouldve required a much biggger budget than DD.

 

[DyeLorean]

Daredevil S03 proved me that it is not actually necessary to have a large budget to make it work. What makes me happy is Daredevil just doing Daredevil-y stuff. Is time and effort in making it look good. The fight scenes in this one have been the best so far. And the plot is tight and interesting. Is not all about budget (although other shows like Iron Fist maybe do need a bit more special effects).
I also appreciate something I always criticized about his senses: show how they work! And they did quite a few times ("The suit... I smell it"), those small touches and details are what makes it good.

 

[djsunyc]

Eh, not necessarily. Yes, some of the K'un Lun stuff would no doubt need a decent budget but all Iron Fist had to do was be like Daredevil, a street vigilante show but with more emphasis on Kung Fu and mysticism and it would've been a great time and i dont think that wouldve required a much biggger budget than DD.

i think for casual fans to buy into mystic stuff, the show has to appear in a grand scale like GOT - having a limited budget with mystic stuff in nyc of all places is very tough to pull off. i always thought his story would've translated better in a film setting.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There was a commercial for the new season last night during Sunday Night Football. Maybe a good sign since Netflix pushed it during primetime?

 

[TheVileOne]

It always disappointed me we never saw K'un L'un in its full glory. The best we got was that temple set in Season 2.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Vanessa is such an intriguing character. It's been fun watching her transform from this innocent woman to Kingpin's right hand. Very underrated character.

If we do get a Season 4 I just need to see Elektra vs Bullseye.

 

[TheVileOne]

Vanessa is such an intriguing character. It's been fun watching her transform from this innocent woman to Kingpin's right hand. Very underrated character.

If we do get a Season 4 I just need to see Elektra vs Bullseye.

How many times can they kill Elektra though? They've already done it twice. Elektra's death that was supposed to come from Bullseye was given to Nobu instead.

 

[Kane52630]

It's probably for something else but...