Dark/Evil Illuminati?

[DoomJester]

But look at Loki's villainy... very subtle, deceitful, often it involves plans that have you thinking you may get something you want out of it... Hood has a strange sense of Honor, at least in New Avengers, he is the king of crime but he runs an organization that tries to avoid eating its own. I don't know Ezekiel but I'm saying, Emma should not be, under any circumstances evil... I don't think Namor is evil, and I don't think he has an confusion as to how evil Doom, someone who would kill his beloved Sue is... so maybe it isn't another inJustice League. It is a possibility that came to me. Also, I think Bendis specifically mentioned the eclipse... perhaps it is a world ending event? I dunno.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If this is an "evil" Illuminati that is going to try and save the world in their own way (especially with Dr. Doom, Namor, and the Hood), I personally think that Magneto would have been a much better option than Emma Frost. And with Magneto being a Holocaust survivor along with Dr. Doom's people being Holocaust victims, I think that they would work much better together.

However, since it has Loki (who's more villainous in the comics and even in the myths is portrayed as more of a bad guy), Dr. Doom's scene with the Red Skull, if that is Ezekiel Stane who is a psychotic terrorist, and the Hood taking control of New York City's supervillain community, I think that this is more of a full on villain Illuminati instead of an anti-villain Illuminati.

We don't know that it's Stane, and we don't know what Loki's motives are now. Before, he was a villain because he liked to mess with Thor and he wanted to rule Asgard. Now that Asgard is on Earth, maybe he's decided he wants to whip Earth into shape and take it over.

 

[DoomJester]

Is it time to ask "why rule earth?" When you really think about it... do you really want to do it? That's why I really liked the Rodi mini "Loki." He finally wins and he's see's that being in charge of Asgard is a real pain in the butt.

 

[Dread]

This is all true, however, you cant discount the times in the past that Doom has also balked in battle. He completely broke down in a fight with a massively pissed off Ben Grimm, for example. I think the problem here is:

A) A lot of you are referencing Doom how he has been written the past 20 years or so, which is fine, but Bendis has cited the old Lee/Kirby run as a big influence on him, and wrote the character a little more old-school.

B) Some of you guys just hate Bendis.

Anyway, just my opinion. I personally have enjoyed Bendis' run on both Avengers books since he started.

Ben Grimm is more of an emotional enemy for Doom. Recall, he is the Fantastic Four's chief rogue before anything else. I can buy him "breaking down" to the Thing than against the Avengers, who he would have less personal feelings about. Grimm is the best friend of his former friend/current enemy. Instant drama. The Avengers invading his country shouldn't incite any more emotion than perhaps annoyance at their impudence.

Whether one likes it or not, you cannot easily dismiss "20 years" of character developments. Writers who decide to write characters as they were during a decade of choice, rather than what they are NOW, usually create ungodly debacles. The irony is that many writers enjoy how characters can change and develop over time, but too many of them decide to "freeze" their characterizations to the Silver Age.

Well isn't a character acting in a way that he hasn't acted for decades -- as in, different from the character that he is today -- the very definition of "out of character"?

I mean, twenty years isn't exactly a brisk walk in the park, it's basically longer than what most of us have even been reading comics for, and that's the Dr. Doom that we know.

Exactly.

Well, this is the same dude who brought us "crazy like it's 1985" Scarlet Witch and "'70s wifebeater" Hank Pym. It's kind of his thing to ignore the last few decades in favor of what he liked when he was a kid.

Indeed.

DC is in a mess right now because their writers and editors are employing this same philosophy. Nostalgia and creativity are not always the same thing.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, no, DC's in a mess because they've tried several major ideas and had them fail utterly through shoddy execution and bad writing.

 

[shapeshifter]

hope they take out some trash

 

[Dread]

Well, no, DC's in a mess because they've tried several major ideas and had them fail utterly through shoddy execution and bad writing.

Also true. But part of that was Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, and Dan DiDio's, as well as others, clear favoritism for Silver Age continuity with many characters, regardless of what their current audiences wanted or experienced (basically, sacrificing the "under 30" crowd for the "over 30" crowd in an industry that has virtually lost all youth to manga). Or at least this sort of "nostalgia storytelling" didn't help matters.

I'm not denying bad writing. I am just suggesting what may be a component.

 

[shapeshifter]

i don't see doom as a team player, but who cares.
ever since Marvel became a bunch of communists, and the heroes have ceased to be heroes, the villains have been more interesting. go get em!

 

[Dread]

i don't see doom as a team player, but who cares.
ever since Marvel became a bunch of communists, and the heroes have ceased to be heroes, the villains have been more interesting. go get em!

I could see Dr. Doom LEADING a team.

In fact, he has. The Terrible Trio, anyone? He made them in the 60's and would literally stash them in another dimension when he didn't need them. They've been in prison for decades before getting their butts handed to them by Ellis' Thunderbolts.

He led the Masters of Evil in the ULTIMATE ALLIANCE video game, which makes more sense than whatever cluster**** Bendis is about to write.

There was also the involvement in Loki's "Acts of Vengeance", but that was a Doombot.

As for "female Loki", I will say that turning a male villain into a girl doesn't really make up for the complaint that some franchises don't have too many female enemies. Sticking a pair of boobs on a villain really isn't that creative. Still, at least it is still Loki, rather than, say, Scorpia.

 

[DoomJester]

Well, I do want to know what Bendis will do. I think we've all at least agreed that at the very least, and for the haters, at the most, Bendis is an idea guy. Well, he knows that he's done this group of evil leaders with the Hood and his crew, and I think he knows that all of Secret Invasion was some massive conspiracy, and I think he knows a lot of readers have seen DC comics do something like this... So I wonder what he will do to make this idea really stand out... Maybe I'm giving him too much credit but I'm trying to hope he hasn't just totally trashed Emma and Namor's character. And to go on what was said about Joe Q... I don't believe he hates Emma or any of these characters... I think it was said that Didio really didn't like Nightwing, but I don't think that's Bendis' case. So, while I need to know more pronto... I kinda want to know more.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, it actually kind of fits with Namor, at least. He was just forced to seek asylum for his entire race with Dr. Doom because of Iron Man and the heroes' new status quo. It's understandable for him to be pissed, and it wouldn't be the first time he's been a villain, or at least an anti-villain. I wouldn't mind a return to his roots, railing against the surface world and not trying to conform to heroic standards.

 

[DoomJester]

Hm... I should've known you'd say something keeping with continuity! I guess I just prefer to think of him as a semi-hero... I can see him working with Doom for a few very specific purposes... but I can't see him willing to completely abandon Sue like that... I'd have to read 1,2,3,4 again, but I think he was in a situation like that with Doom where he had to basically chose between Sue being happy or getting Sue by working with Doom and he chose to let Sue be happy.

Again though, I think this a bad crowd, and that just isn't Namor and (current) Emma's crowd...

 

[UK_Stu]

But look at Loki's villainy... very subtle, deceitful, often it involves plans that have you thinking you may get something you want out of it... Hood has a strange sense of Honor, at least in New Avengers, he is the king of crime but he runs an organization that tries to avoid eating its own. I don't know Ezekiel but I'm saying, Emma should not be, under any circumstances evil... I don't think Namor is evil, and I don't think he has an confusion as to how evil Doom, someone who would kill his beloved Sue is... so maybe it isn't another inJustice League. It is a possibility that came to me. Also, I think Bendis specifically mentioned the eclipse... perhaps it is a world ending event? I dunno.

You are aware that Emma used to be a villain right?

I actually really like the line-up of this group, though I'm not convinced the Hood is a high enough villain to be part of this - but has it been established how powerful a demon he is yet?

Plus if this is anything like the 'good' Illuminati, they'll just get togther discuss failed plans of world domination, ***** about their respected Hero counterparts and swop recipes

 

[UK_Stu]

Well, it actually kind of fits with Namor, at least. He was just forced to seek asylum for his entire race with Dr. Doom because of Iron Man and the heroes' new status quo. It's understandable for him to be pissed, and it wouldn't be the first time he's been a villain, or at least an anti-villain. I wouldn't mind a return to his roots, railing against the surface world and not trying to conform to heroic standards.

Didn't the sub-mariner appear in tons of Super-villain team up books?

 

[Vartha]

Yup he did! Subby is both Villian AND Hero depends on the time of the month you catch him

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You are aware that Emma used to be a villain right?

"Used to be" being the key words there. She's been reformed for like 10 years now.

 

[UK_Stu]

"Used to be" being the key words there. She's been reformed for like 10 years now.

Very true, but Doomjester said he couldn't see her as evil. I was just re-iterating she "used to be", so it isn't really too much of a stretch for her to become a villain again.

 

[Kitsune]

Yup he did! Subby is both Villian AND Hero depends on the time of the month you catch him

That would explain the eclipse now, wouldn't it?

 

[Brainiac 8]

Very true, but Doomjester said he couldn't see her as evil. I was just re-iterating she "used to be", so it isn't really too much of a stretch for her to become a villain again.

No, it's not a stretch.....if you ignore 10+ years of X-Men continuity.

 

[UK_Stu]

No, it's not a stretch.....if you ignore 10+ years of X-Men continuity.

Don't be so pedantic. I was merely trying to illustrate she hasn't always been a 'good guy'. It would be pretty easy to accept her as a villain again I think. Maybe 10+ years of continuity says this is no longer the case, but this is the MU continuity - it can be changed in an instant - see OMD

 

[Brainiac 8]

Don't be so pedantic. I was merely trying to illustrate she hasn't always been a 'good guy'. It would be pretty easy to accept her as a villain again I think. Maybe 10+ years of continuity says this is no longer the case, but this is the MU continuity - it can be changed in an instant - see OMD

Heh, I know, I was being facetious.

I do think it would take alot to make her a convincing villian again though. But as you said, Marvel is the king of lightswitch changes if it fits what they want to do.

 

[DoomJester]

I don't know if I'd say Marvel does what they want to do... that doesn't seem fair to all the writers who do largely follow continuity... Joe Q did, once-- but it was a big one-- and I think Bendis will do what he wants to do with a character's personality, but I don't know if he doesn't care about continuity.

When I first met Emma she was a villain on the Fox Saturday X-men, but she's been nothing but a hero since Morrison's New X-men run. I was raging on the AXM boards when Whedon insinuated that Emma may be evil, but most x-writers, have gone out of their way to show that Emma is a hero. Someone said she'd been a hero for 10 or so years... I guess that's right, but in that case, to turn her around in an issue would be huge reversal! So maybe it's something different. For my sanity I hope it is.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Marvel could give a crap about continuity.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I don't know if I'd say Marvel does what they want to do... that doesn't seem fair to all the writers who do largely follow continuity... Joe Q did, once-- but it was a big one-- and I think Bendis will do what he wants to do with a character's personality, but I don't know if he doesn't care about continuity.

When I first met Emma she was a villain on the Fox Saturday X-men, but she's been nothing but a hero since Morrison's New X-men run. I was raging on the AXM boards when Whedon insinuated that Emma may be evil, but most x-writers, have gone out of their way to show that Emma is a hero. Someone said she'd been a hero for 10 or so years... I guess that's right, but in that case, to turn her around in an issue would be huge reversal! So maybe it's something different. For my sanity I hope it is.

"One More Day," "Avengers Disassembled," and "House of M" would like a word with you.

 

[DoomJester]

Well, I'm prone to agree with you on the books you mentioned-- though I haven't read much avengers-- but I already said that Joe Q offended once, and that Bendis was the big offender. But I'll say again, most writers probably play by the rules, that's why I wonder if some of the x-writers were as shocked as I was to see the teaser image.