Darthphere Presents: Chivalry is Dead. So what?

[HisMagicTrick]

Chivalry is stupid. Don't claim women deserve to be treated the same as men and then expect a man to treat you as somehow more special. Pay for your own damn food, b*tch.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, was that too much?

 

[Darthphere]

I think another thing you have to factor into this discussion is the cultural aspect. I think this is where some people are split. In my case I'm Hispanic and live in Miami. Chivalrous acts and the whole courtship aspect of dating is not only the norm but expected. This falls under the antiquated notions of Latin American cultures. Machismo is still very much alive in Hispanic culture. There's an old way style of thinking that is very much prevalent amongst us, not only about dating but about most topics. There's a new younger generation like myself that have moved away from this but not fast enough for my liking.

 

[E-Man]

Chivalry is stupid. Don't claim women deserve to be treated the same as men and then expect a man to treat you as somehow more special. Pay for your own damn food, b*tch.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, was that too much?

I agree 100%.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Chivalry isn't dead Darth. Women have shown a dislike for it in some ways, choosing the "Bad Boy" perhaps ... but there are still gentlemen out there ...

And then those women ask why their man can't be more chivalrous.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yeah but then you go out to the mall and don't hold the door open for a woman and you get the sarcastic "I guess chivalry really is dead." comment. Sorry lady I slammed the door in your face instead.

You're not making any moral grand stand by holding the door. So what if my behavior causes them to make a sarcastic remark, just be sarcastic back to them. What, because you held a door they have to f*** you? If you don't think that, then what's the complaint? People don't notice every nice thing you do? That's not realistic either.

There is nothing challenging that comes from chivalry. No person to get to know. You don't HAVE to be nice to a woman, they should earn those things. You're trying to build trust and intimacy not prove to them how free and cheap you are. You don't have to treat them like sh**, but it's fine to be indifferent to them. Not go out of your way.

Crazy thing is that non-door holding sob is gonna hook up with miss sarcasm, probably because he didn't immediately apologize since he knew she was capable of opening it and she, at the time, really wasn't his problem. She may fight to become his problem though

 

[SpideyVille]

I think another thing you have to factor into this discussion is the cultural aspect. I think this is where some people are split. In my case I'm Hispanic and live in Miami. Chivalrous acts and the whole courtship aspect of dating is not only the norm but expected. This falls under the antiquated notions of Latin American cultures. Machismo is still very much alive in Hispanic culture. There's an old way style of thinking that is very much prevalent amongst us, not only about dating but about most topics. There's a new younger generation like myself that have moved away from this but not fast enough for my liking.

Yeah, I'm Hispanic in NY, and while most of the families that I know don' have that male pressure, it is still expected that the main do things for their mothers, sisters, girlfriends etc. But like you mention, the younger generation has moved against this aside form cases where its considered common courtesy.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but there was a while ago where I was walking with my friend and I went in front of her in a narrow street where they were doing construction and she gave me a hard time for not being a gentleman and letting her walk first. So I learned from that and a week later when it was cold outside, I gave her my coat and carried her bag, which is when she told me that girls still notice these acts of a gentleman. But then later that same day a friend of mine was with his girlfriend and didn't give her his jacket right away until I told him to.

So like you mention, sometimes its expected, but in this day and age, its not placed as highly therefore it is not practiced as frequently. Like a guy will only give a girl his jacket if they're in the early stages of dating to impress her, but not later on because he no longer has to worry about the courtship.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think another thing you have to factor into this discussion is the cultural aspect. I think this is where some people are split. In my case I'm Hispanic and live in Miami. Chivalrous acts and the whole courtship aspect of dating is not only the norm but expected. This falls under the antiquated notions of Latin American cultures. Machismo is still very much alive in Hispanic culture. There's an old way style of thinking that is very much prevalent amongst us, not only about dating but about most topics. There's a new younger generation like myself that have moved away from this but not fast enough for my liking.

I have a Hispanic co-worker. Nice guy, pretty short. He has a saying about American (I assume he means white) girls: He says "in America when you treat girls nice, they treat you bad". We do value freedom of speech much differently here than other countries.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I can't see chivalry dying. It's hardwired into human males, as it is into a lot of male animals who are the physically stronger of the two sexes. In a lot of animals where females are stronger and larger, they protect the males.

I suppose you could suppress that instinct, but it will keep popping up for quite a while.

 

[Darthphere]

I have a Hispanic co-worker. Nice guy, pretty short. He has a saying about American (I assume he means white) girls: He says "in America when you treat girls nice, they treat you bad". We do value freedom of speech much differently here than other countries.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I can't see chivalry dying. It's hardwired into human males, as it is into a lot of male animals who are the physically stronger of the two sexes. In a lot of animals where females are stronger and larger, they protect the males.

I suppose you could suppress that instinct, but it will keep popping up for quite a while.

It amuses me when people quote biology. As far as I can tell in primates, gender roles have a certain eveness to them. Our particular past is male dominant in leadership, but humans are a social species. What disguises us is our ability to coorperate rather than have strict boundaries. There is no doubt women are weaker physically, but homo sapiens are not strong enough to handle predators that well anyways. We're fairly weak in general. So, no I don't think the default behavior is chivalry. In fact I think that comes a lot more from cultural bias. You see this to high degrees in the Bible for example, they overvalue minor acts of kindness towards women as duty to justify some pretty demeaning things. The caveman notion that men just clubbed and took women is definitely wrong in my opinion.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

America's notion of freedom of speech tends to place emphasis on outspokeness. As if being a little rebellious is a good thing. That's what happens when the guys who start your country do it by getting drunk and pulling a prank dressed as Indians.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It amuses me when people quote biology. As far as I can tell in primates, gender roles have a certain eveness to them. Our particular past is male dominant in leadership, but humans are a social species. What disguises us is our ability to coorperate rather than have strict boundaries. There is no doubt women are weaker physically, but homo sapiens are not strong enough to handle predators that well anyways. We're fairly weak in general. So, no I don't think the default behavior is chivalry. In fact I think that comes a lot more from cultural bias. You see this to high degrees in the Bible for example, they overvalue minor acts of kindness towards women as duty to justify some pretty demeaning things. The caveman notion that men just clubbed and took women is definitely wrong in my opinion.

I'll agree chivalry isn't the default behavior, but it certainly has a basis in biology, and as a result, will come up a lot. There are other behaviors dictated by biology that occur... many of them less pleasant (see orangutans).

But really, humans can't handle predators well? How do you think we got on the top of the food chain? We're the deadliest animal on this planet. Human ingenuity combined with human strength can take down any animal. We didn't always have weapons that fired themselves.

Actually, women probably clubbed too, but men clubbed harder and more often, since women bore children.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'll agree chivalry isn't the default behavior, but it certainly has a basis in biology, and as a result, will come up a lot. There are other behaviors dictated by biology that occur... many of them less pleasant (see orangutans).

But really, humans can't handle predators well? How do you think we got on the top of the food chain? We're the deadliest animal on this planet. Human ingenuity combined with human strength can take down any animal. We didn't always have weapons that fired themselves.

Actually, women probably clubbed too, but men clubbed harder and more often, since women bore children.

We climbed to the top because we communicate better and coorperate more.

 

[Hound55]

Opposable thumbs ain't bad either...

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Women are not a video game, so there is simply no code you can input to 'finish them'. "Hold door + pick up check + make funny joke + x, all while holding right trigger" doesn't apply in real life. Chivalry naturally assumes particular "duties" during courtship, and even worse, if you buy into the notion I think it causes you to assume there is this level you can attain, or things you can do that'll work.

Beautiful women especially want realness, because that's what is in short supply for them. They could find ten guys tonight who will remind them just how awesome they are without ever knowing them. That kind of phony baloney behavior is pleasant for them, sure, no one will push away a sycophant. It's not attractive though.

Girls look beautiful for, if they're lucky, like a few hours a day. The rest can go either way. So if you get caught up in all the superficial crap, all the masks we put on so we can convince everyone else we're civilized and don't throw our own poop anymore, it'll cause problems. This is what inherently is wrong with chivalry. It only tries to appeal to a non-existent social construct, one that is depicted as weak and needy. So while behaving nice in a nice restaurant is one thing, failing to show any signs of realness is poison.

In a way when you give a girl a hard time, or don't just cave into her demands, you show her you're not fooled by all the hair and make-up.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

EDIT: Doublepost

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Chivalry isn't dead.

You know how I know? Because I inadvertantly put off a lot of men by not giving them the room to be chivalrous.

For instance, last date I went on, I held the door open for him when we got there.

I was first in (usually take the lead)... But it seemed so weird that I actually made a joke of saying 'Ladies first' so he knew I had noticed that it was odd for me to be doing that.

But it's a bad habit. It makes men feel demasculated I think.

And I'm constantly sending out this unconscious signal saying 'I don't need the help o' no man!'

 

[THE MR. TERRIFIC]

I try to be as chivalrous as posible even though I've been married for almost 9 years. But after that long it's still appreciated by my wife because it's not expected. And if a woman held the door open for me I wouldn't feel decasculated. I would just say thank you and keep it moving.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

I am a perfect example, as I expect chivalry from the women in my life.

She should open doors for me, she can pay for me too.

Chivalry is Not dead, its just reversed.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

When you make people do things for you, rather than simply being chivalrous and doing everything for them, people will like you more. It's counter-intuitive, but people will want to justify the time and energy they've spent on you. When you challenge someone for your affection, rather than just give it, it becomes an objective for them to attain. If you continue to move the goal posts a bit you can gauge how far they'll go. This makes them come to you on your terms, rather than you going to them on their terms.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

^^^^^ agreed.

Here is how it works guys:

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

^ I wouldn't go that far. Just that if you're holding the door, make it casual, and don't make it "about her".

That dude has a bit of a bulge lol

 

[SpideyVille]

I try to be as chivalrous as posible even though I've been married for almost 9 years. But after that long it's still appreciated by my wife because it's not expected. And if a woman held the door open for me I wouldn't feel decasculated. I would just say thank you and keep it moving.

I wouldn't feel emasculated if some random girl held a door open for me, but sometimes I feel that way when I'm with a girl and she doesn't give me a chance to open it. Like there's been a few occasions where the girl actually seemed to make an effort to get to the door before me just so I couldn't open it, and that's a bad trait to me. Like most girls I know don't expect you to do it, but appreciate it if you do.

 

[The Morningstar]

It's just manners really. You see someone walking behind you who is going to use the same door as you? Hold it open.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It's just manners really. You see someone walking behind you who is going to use the same door as you? Hold it open.

This too. I don't overthink holding doors. Its just a common courtesy, nothing to get hung up on.