BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

[The Guard]

The villain of Cap 2 was [BLACKOUT]Alexander Pierce[/BLACKOUT] and Hydra. Winter Soldier was Hydra's brain washed assassin. Criticising the lack of development for Winter Soldier is like saying The Terminator didn't have enough development.

A character that, again, had minimal development, and wasn't very interesting.

I think the point stands.

There are ways to make a "brainwashed assassin" interesting and explore the character who has been brainwashed. Which was the whole point of the creation of the concept in the Cap comics several years ago. TWS used it as a plot device, and not much else.

And The Terminator didn't have much development. He's cool, but not a terribly interesting character, either.

 

[TheBat812]

The terminator isn't well developed in the first film but very well developed in the second.

 

[weezerspider]

General Zod was great in MOS. I actually think he's one of the more underrated villains in CB films.

Winter Soldier and Terminator are a pretty good comparison actually. Both are pretty much mindless beings with one purpose: to kick ass. That kind of character doesn't necessarily need strong backgrounds or anything. That said, I easily prefer Zod. Goyer can write villain monologues pretty well(maybe because they are inherently cheesily badass).

 

[DA_Champion]

There's a reason that The Terminator is an icon whereas nobody will remember TWS in ten years.

The terminator did the psychopath thing a lot better. He methodically went through the phone book and killed one sarah connor then the next in the exact same manner (six bullets). He was extremely systematic and relentless, and thirty years later the character line "I'll be back" still has meaning, if he had no character the line would be meaningless. He has other classic scenes: when he took the clothes he needed, and when he tells his landlord to **** off.

The movie tells us that the terminator never stops ... and then shows it. He continues after his skin has peeled off, he gets up after a fire has burned all his flesh, and when kyle reese reduces him to a body and an arm he keeps going.

Finally, the terminator has an interesting backstory. Id say he needed that cool backstory.

How are the terminator and the winter soldier comparable? Simple: the winter soldier is a less interesting version of the terminator.

A good thing that can be said about Zod: he was not a derivative villain, unlike TWS, he's not a less interesting version of some other villain.

 

[Lord]

The Man of Steel wasn't very good, but i have to admit that Zod was pretty well handled, had interesting and kind of creative motivations and i even started to apreciate the actor more after watching Boardwalk Empire.

 

[The Endless]

My only criticism of Zod is that... he was bred to be the perfect Kryptonian soldier. Yet he gets stomped by someone bred to be the perfect Kryptonian scientist. And for a soldier he let his emotions get the better of him way too easily.

I'd like to have seen him be more cold and calculating, and we know Shannon can pull that off magnificently.

But yea he was overall a pretty great villain.

Still, Captain America was a better hero than Superman so it evens itself out

 

[DA_Champion]

My only criticism of Zod is that... he was bred to be the perfect Kryptonian soldier. Yet he gets stomped by someone bred to be the perfect Kryptonian scientist. And for a soldier he let his emotions get the better of him way too easily.

I like to think that's more of a problem with Jor-El.

Still, Captain America was a better hero than Superman so it evens itself out

Indeed, unlike Superman, Captain America isn't a murderer.

;-)

 

[The Endless]

haha touche touche.

But i mean Cap was better written in my view. They didn't need to compromise his character to make him interesting. His speech over the PA system was just brilliant and a true Captain America moment. Kal didn't have a moment like that. But then i guess he isn't the beacon of hope just yet. I hope to see him fully comfortable with who he is in the next film though.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Actually, the idea that a small cabal of rogue Nazis have been controlling the government or even just the CIA for 65 years is not just far-fetched, it's just plain stupid.

They hadn't been controlling SHIELD for 65 years, they had been infiltrating it, they also aren't Nazis anymore. They had control just from when Pierce became the emissary to the WSC, which is still a pretty long time, given they show roughly when that happened.

 

[The Endless]

lol so the idea of an offshoot of nazi's infiltrating the CIA is stupid.

Yet the story in MoS about a god like alien fighting off other god like aliens isn't?

Considering Operation Paperclip was a real thing. Considering the CIA have trained and armed countless "terrorists" and enemies how is it stupid?

 

[DA_Champion]

They hadn't been controlling SHIELD for 65 years, they had been infiltrating it, they also aren't Nazis anymore. They had control just from when Pierce became the emissary to the WSC, which is still a pretty long time, given they show roughly when that happened.

Actually, the zola exposition dump was clear, they had engineered the instability in the past few decades, implying a massive degree of control.

 

[The Endless]

They engineered the instability by using the Winter Soldier to assassinate key targets. For example, killing JFK to kick off the Vietnam war.

It's definitely far fetched. Most conspiracy stories are.

 

[Space Ghost]

By the way, why does everyone instantly believes in Captain America, a fugitive, when he announces that SHIELD is being controled by Hydra. And why does a member of the council demands Pierce´s arrest without proof of anything? Did i miss something?

Captain America was so similar to any other Marvel movie that i can´t believe everybody is talking about it as something completely revolutionary.

 

[The Endless]

Because he's Captain America. The guy who sacrificed himself to stop Red Skull destroying America in the 40s. He's a symbol that people believe in. As for Pierce and the World Security Council? Well it's clearly shown that the World Security Council is above things like courts etc. That's part of the problem the film presents. They obviously have too much power and they are not held accountable for it. Also shown in Avengers when they authorise New York to be nuked.

It's very different to the other Marvel movies. Well it has similarities with IM3.

It isn't just "stop the bad guy has a mcguffin that will destroy the world/city" like The First Avenger, Thor, Thor 2 or Avengers for example.

 

[Space Ghost]

Because he's Captain America.

But that didn´t stop anyone from chasing him with, again, no proof of anything. In one minute everything is Ok with him being a fugitive, in the other, everyone instantly believes in him. Well, it does not make a whole lot of sense.

It isn't just "stop the bad guy has a mcguffin that will destroy the world/city" like The First Avenger, Thor, Thor 2 or Avengers for example.

It turns into that pretty quickly.

 

[PacificBoy]

But that didn´t stop anyone from chasing him with, again, no proof of anything. In one minute everything is Ok with him being a fugitive, in the other, everyone instantly believes in him. Well, it does not make a whole lot of sense.

If you remember, the likes of Agent 13 questioned why they had to chase after Cap, and it took Pierce's presence and direct order to override the protest. Everyone believed in him from the start. As The Endless has mentioned, SHIELD, like the World Council -- and in a lot of ways, like HYDRA -- acts above things like courts and the constitution. They don't need proof, just a direct order from a superior.

It turns into that pretty quickly.

That's pretty much most CBMs that aren't TDK. I don't think anyone is "talking about [TWS] as something completely revolutionary". People are simply saying it's a well made movie.

 

[Space Ghost]

If you remember, the likes of Agent 13 questioned why they had to chase after Cap, and it took Pierce's presence and direct order to override the protest. Everyone believed in him from the start.

Yeah, but they still did, and the council was Ok with it. First, Pierce´s word is enough to chase someone as important as Captain America, but then, Captain America´s word is enough for Pierce to be arrested. I mean, they basically just need accuse each other of things, for everybody to take it seriously. I´m sorry, but that´s just a great example of bad writing.

That's pretty much most CBMs that aren't TDK. I don't think anyone is "talking about [TWS] as something completely revolutionary". People are simply saying it's a well made movie.

You´re right. But i do see people talking about this as a game changer and something completely revolutionary.

 

[PacificBoy]

Yeah, but they still did, and the council was Ok with it. First, Pierce´s word is enough to chase someone as important as Captain America, but then, Captain America´s word is enough for Pierce to be arrested. I mean, they basically just need accuse each other of things, for everybody to take it seriously. I´m sorry, but that´s just a great example of bad writing.

Other than believing in the person, they, the council and SHIELD rank and file, also believed in what Cap was saying and took their chances. Because not believing at that point would mean the potential death of millions of innocents.

It wasn't merely Pierce's word, but Pierce's direct order as a high-ranker. Remember also Cap hadn't spoken up about anything then. If he had, pretty sure people would heed, but Cap didn't have the slightest clue what was going on. No inconsistency or bad writing here.

You´re right. But i do see people talking about this as a game changer and something completely revolutionary.

It's game-changing for the MCU, not only within the movie universe but also the general standards of Marvel movies.

 

[Space Ghost]

Other than believing in the person, they, the council and SHIELD rank and file, also believed in what Cap was saying and took their chances. Because not believing at that point would mean the potential death of millions of innocents.

It wasn't merely Pierce's word, but Pierce's direct order as a high-ranker. Remember also Cap hadn't spoken up about anything then. If he had, pretty sure people would heed, but Cap didn't have the slightest clue what was going on. No inconsistency or bad writing here.

1- Captain America is chased and almost killed without anyone really questioning it. The "World Security Council" is Ok with it. At least they could have incriminate him in a convincing way. A National hero is chased and nobody gets involved.

2- Captain America, believed as being hiding something about Fury´s death, appears from nowhere, full of conspiracy theories and everyone instantly believes in him. This tells us this Council believes in everything and nothing ever gets questioned or investigated. The launching could have simply been delayed and things investigated a little better, but no. The answer is "You sick son of a b***. Arrest him.".

3- Security concerns should work both ways. If you don´t know what a man is up to, you shouldn´t give him the power to decide what happens and what doesn´t happen in an agency like SHIELD. It´s an intelligence agency. Maximum security should be a priority. You simply don´t make big moves based on trust. That´s not how a real intelligence agency works.

4- The way Captain discovered the whole thing about HYDRA is lazy and dumb.

For a movie who deals with intelligence, there´s really not that much intelligence involved.

 

[Gavan]

Hold on, I thought Chris Terrio took over?

 

[Space Ghost]

Hold on, I thought Chris Terrio took over?

For all we know, he is rewriting the script.

 

[PacificBoy]

1- Captain America is chased and almost killed without anyone really questioning it. The "World Security Council" is Ok with it. At least they could have incriminate him in a convincing way. A National hero is chased and nobody gets involved.

Again, Agent 13 and others questioned it. It took a direct order from a high-ranker to drown the protests. The council wasn't even in the picture because it's an internal affair. Cap is a national hero AND a SHIELD agent. HYDRA was pulling the strings behind the scenes as well under the guise of national security, closing down lines of communication.

Pierce used the truth/facts of the situation against Cap: that Cap was hiding something about Fury's death and was on the run. If anything, it's a great example of good writing.

2- Captain America, believed as being hiding something about Fury´s death, appears from nowhere, full of conspiracy theories and everyone instantly believes in him. This tells us this Council believes in everything and nothing ever gets questioned or investigated. The launching could have simply been delayed and things investigated a little better, but no. The answer is "You sick son of a b***. Arrest him.".

Have already explained why they believed him. Sure it's a conspiracy theory, but it's a secret upper echelon of power that deals in such political play daily so it isn't out of the realm of possibility. And the bearer is none other than Captain America.

If you rewatch the scene during Cap's speech, you can see the council members turning to Pierce when Cap said he's the HYDRA leader and see Pierce cocking his head in acknowledgement that Cap was speaking the truth. The launching was going to be delayed but HYDRA started moving and forcing it. See the launch room scene with Agent 13, Rumlow and the launch operator.

There was already an underlying tension between Pierce and the other council members if you remember. The other members had a private discussion about the tenability of his tenure. Seems like it wouldn't take much for the council members to call Pierce an SOB.

3- Security concerns should work both ways. If you don´t know what a man is up to, you shouldn´t give him the power to decide what happens and what doesn´t happen in an agency like SHIELD. It´s an intelligence agency. Maximum security should be a priority. You simply don´t make big moves based on trust. That´s not how a real intelligence agency works.

See above about Pierce acknowledging he's the HYDRA head.

4- The way Captain discovered the whole thing about HYDRA is lazy and dumb.

Well, I'd agree it's somewhat lazy in that it's delivered in the form of an exposition dump. It's probably the most out-of-place scene, but it's done so for pure comic-book, pulp sensibility's sake. It's hardly dumb because it references a very real-life event in Operation Paperclip.

For a movie who deals with intelligence, there´s really not that much intelligence involved.

Not a fair statement since a lot of your gripes have been explained.

 

[DA_Champion]

Well, I'd agree it's somewhat lazy in that it's delivered in the form of an exposition dump. It's probably the most out-of-place scene, but it's done so for pure comic-book, pulp sensibility's sake.

Marvel fans lol.

 

[PacificBoy]

Really DA? Space Ghost and I have been keeping it sensible by not bringing in any of that nonsense.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Actually, the zola exposition dump was clear, they had engineered the instability in the past few decades, implying a massive degree of control.

Yeah, when Fury was promoted to director and Pierce was the emissary to the WSC.

It would have been hard fot Hydra to have infiltrated back when it was directly run by Carter, Stark and Tommy Lee-Jones. So from like the late 80's/early 90's Hydra had been infiltrating SHIELD more and more, because the leader of SHIELD was also the leader of HYDRA.