BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

[The Endless]

I'm not 100% fond of it either. But it is what it is.

Plus like i said, it was the only moment in the entire final battle where i felt tension.

 

[Marvin]

I don't know. I spent a lot of time bashing MoS (about two months lol)...

Good times

I do think that if MoS had had a BS happy ending based on some nonsensical deus ex machina there would have been fewer complaints.

When superman made the choice he made in the original film that resulted in lois dying, I felt that a strong cinematic character choice in line with a theme established earlier in the film. He can't save everyone.
Then he goes and spins the world backwards and ends the film with wink. Resulting in a weaker film imo. This is the moment when the universe decided snyder's film was going to be divisive. Thrusting it upon an audience that has been conditioned into expecting(and often shunning) the former.

I'm personally glad the film caught people off guard. Who knew a superman film capable of such a thing any more.

That´s the sort of thing that used to happen in the old Superman movies that people love so much, so i can see the majority being pleased by it. It´s also the sort of thing that happens in Marvel movies. And again, people love it.

It happened in the old superman movies that modern audiences would berate time and again. The same people that would suggest DC is about old school and tired vs the more 'engaging' stuff Stan Lee developed. Old school superman wasn't as loved as some fans today are making it seem, not when it comes to modern film anyways. Particularly after Returns.

As for it happening in the marvel films, when marvel 'does this' they do it with flawed relatable characters. Thor and his issues vs Donner superman...it's not quite the same. Those films also tend to end ugly, villains die or are blown up in iron suits or what not. The tend to be judged onto themselves unlike the way most people seem to judge a superman film.

 

[Space Ghost]

Oh there was characterisation and a story. But evidently, not many people liked it.

That´s debatable. Critics didn´t like it, but the GA gave it a pretty decent rating.

And maybe isn´t Zack Snyder or his vision. Maybe his film is just fine. Maybe Superman is simply not appealing to a lot of people nowadays. Or maybe it´s simply much more difficult to mess with Superman´s character than with Iron Man´s. Superman is a more established character, so if you try to do something different than what people are used to, many won´t react very well to it.


Tony Stark is a rich jerk who got a taste of his own medicine and didn´t like it. Why should i care about him? Or better yet: Why should i care more about him than about an innocent that´s simply trying to find his place in the universe? How´s Tony Stark a more likeable character than Clark? He isn´t, simply. I have no reason to root for him.

The thing is: People who don´t care that much about this type of movies can at least enjoy RDJ´s charm and screen presence. RDJ is more popular than Iron Man, like Johnny Depp is more popular than captain jack sparrow. A lot of people, including women, go watch Iron Man because of RDJ. The movie has some funny moments and a very likeable lead. Do you think that what people care about is Iron Man´s story? Honestly, i doubt it.

 

[SofNascimento]

Wait, Goyer was fired?

 

[roach]

Wait, Goyer was fired?

Goyer was not fired.
Goyer was too busy to do the rewrites...he currently has Justice League, Sandman, Constantine, Metal gear Solid, Davinci's Demons on his plate and that's the stuff we know about

 

[Space Ghost]

Goyer was not fired.
Goyer was too busy to do the rewrites...he currently has Justice League, Sandman, Constantine, Metal gear Solid, Davinci's Demons on his plate and that's the stuff we know about

He is writing Justice League? Is that a fact?

 

[SofNascimento]

Goyer was not fired.
Goyer was too busy to do the rewrites...he currently has Justice League, Sandman, Constantine, Metal gear Solid, Davinci's Demons on his plate and that's the stuff we know about

So he wasn't fired, he is just not working on it anymore and someone else is writing the script.

 

[roach]

He is writing Justice League? Is that a fact?

someone posted the link that he was writing it

 

[roach]

So he wasn't fired, he is just not working on it anymore and someone else is writing the script.

I am not familiar with his situation but I am a screenwriter. What happens is when someone is contracted to write a script it's usually a step contract. A step contract goes like this: A first draft is required on this date, a second draft is required on this date and then a final draft is required on this date...(and it depends on how many drafts the two parties agreed upon). Goyer could have fulfilled his contract and did the required amount of drafts.
After turning in his final draft Goyer could have moved on to Justice League. Now if they wanted to punch up the script some more they could either...pull Goyer off Justice League or bring in a new writer (which is what they did)

 

[snpklsdmbldr]

a script is never finished anyway, they can change anything even while on location filming.

 

[roach]

a script is never finished anyway, they can change anything even while on location filming.

stories have changed in the editing bay...which is why some films do additional shooting

 

[Micromind]

That´s debatable. Critics didn´t like it, but the GA gave it a pretty decent rating.

And maybe isn´t Zack Snyder or his vision. Maybe his film is just fine. Maybe Superman is simply not appealing to a lot of people nowadays. Or maybe it´s simply much more difficult to mess with Superman´s character than with Iron Man´s. Superman is a more established character, so if you try to do something different than what people are used to, many won´t react very well to it.

A comparative look at RT's Top Critic ratings show that MOS got a reasonably fair score.

Spoiler

A look at RT - Top Critic ratings -

Man of Steel
Average Rating: 6.2/10

Thor The Dark World
Average Rating: 5.4/10

Iron Man 2
Average Rating: 5.9/10

The Incredible Hulk
Average Rating: 5.8/10

Thor
Average Rating: 6.3/10

So, even though MOS was not well received by critics, still it scored better than Thor:TDW, TIH, IM 2 and it was just below the first Thor.

Tony Stark is a rich jerk who got a taste of his own medicine and didn´t like it. Why should i care about him? Or better yet: Why should i care more about him than about an innocent that´s simply trying to find his place in the universe? How´s Tony Stark a more likeable character than Clark? He isn´t, simply. I have no reason to root for him.

The thing is: People who don´t care that much about this type of movies can at least enjoy RDJ´s charm and screen presence. RDJ is more popular than Iron Man, like Johnny Depp is more popular than captain jack sparrow. A lot of people, including women, go watch Iron Man because of RDJ. The movie has some funny moments and a very likeable lead. Do you think that what people care about is Iron Man´s story? Honestly, i doubt it.

I disagree , the first Iron man movie had a great origin story, better character development, good acting performances and likable RDJ. It was a better origin story as compered to MOS. (IMO.)

 

[Space Ghost]

...


I disagree , the first Iron man movie had a great origin story, character development, good acting performances and likable RDJ. It was a better origin story as compered to MOS.

That´s up to you. I don´t see anything interesting about Iron Man´s story. I find it dull and laughable. That´s a matter of opinions. But if you want to discuss things objectively you must present concrete examples and logical reasoning regarding why something is good or bad.

I actually don´t dislike the IM movie. It´s pretty entertaining. I just don´t see what´s so great about the story. And i also don´t see what it does so much better than MOS.

And i´m not even saying MOS is a great movie. I think it is a 7/10. I just don´t think it has more problems than any Marvel movie.

You can say "well, Superman´s story is not very interesting to me". That´s ok. It´s a personal preference of yours. But to say the movie has not enough of this or enough of that, that´s a completely different thing and can be discussed objectively.

 

[Micromind]

Well, you brought IM movie for comparison, and I gave my opinion why I think that it is better than MOS, what more needs to be said ?

But if you want to discuss things objectively you must present concrete examples and logical reasoning regarding why something is good or bad.

Yeah, but I am not basing my argument based on box office collections, the comparative analysis of budget of two movies or the RT score given by top critics...though if anyone looks at all the data available, he can derive a logical conclusion about the success of either movie.

 

[The Endless]

It's great because the poster boy for the American military industrial complex has an epiphany and turns against them. It's great because this raging *****e bag naturally progresses into a better human being. It's great because RDJ effectively shows that you don't have to be a moping sad sack to be thoughtful and remorseful.

The world seems to agree.

Man of Steel has Kal/Clark worried about revealing himself to the world. He has one father telling him to inspire people by doing great things. And another who is telling him he maybe should have let a bus load of kids die. Same father then needlessly lets himself be killed to test Kal/Clark's resolve? The whole tornado scene was stupidly heavy handed.

Kal/Clark spends too much time being indecisive and mopey. Yet... he's already out there saving people anyway? He even resists showing his power in a bar incident... but then destroys the truck anyway? Which would surely reveal he has super powers? The film just seems confused with itself.

These are the flaws i see in the film. And obviously a lot of other people have problems with this portrayal of Superman.

That said i don't think MoS is crap. It's a good movie but i don't think it reached it's potential. But Iron Man is the superior film. Not just in my opinion, but in the majority of average film goers and professional critics too.

 

[Space Ghost]

Well, you brought IM movie for comparison, and I gave my opinion why I think that it is better than MOS, what more needs to be said ?



Yeah, but I am not basing my argument based on box office collections, the comparative analysis of budget of two movies or the RT score given by top critics...though if anyone looks at all the data available, he can derive a logical conclusion about the success of either movie.

You said not many people liked the movie. I pointed out the fact that the movie was only not very well received by critics. Other than that, i think most people liked it.

 

[Space Ghost]

It's great because the poster boy for the American military industrial complex has an epiphany and turns against them. It's great because this raging *****e bag naturally progresses into a better human being. It's great because RDJ effectively shows that you don't have to be a moping sad sack to be thoughtful and remorseful.

Yeah. Marvel characters handle catastrophic issues with a smile on their face, that´s why everything feels cartoonish and hollow. I never get the feeling that there is something important at stake. Things don´t have dramatic value on that universe. Everything feels like a big colorful playground. Everything is light.An entire city can be destroyed without conveying the feeling that someone can actually die.

 

[Marvin]

It's great because RDJ effectively shows that you don't have to be a moping sad sack to be thoughtful and remorseful.

The world seems to agree.

It never ends.
So what does Cap tell us about what the world thinks of mopey heroes exactly? Given that he mopes alot? Yes a generalization seeing as he does more than just mope, kinda the way superman did more than just mope...

Man of Steel has Kal/Clark worried about revealing himself to the world. He has one father telling him to inspire people by doing great things. And another who is telling him he maybe should have let a bus load of kids die. Same father then needlessly lets himself be killed to test Kal/Clark's resolve? The whole tornado scene was stupidly heavy handed.

His dad told him to keep his secret identity till he knew why he was sent to earth and so he could stand proud(good man or bad) with a sense of self. GOOD ADVICE given the superman lore, and precisely what he went on to do though his childhood and into manhood.
There was nothing needless about Jon's death unless you are being willfully obtuse here.

The only thing the film showed differently is what would happen if Jon kent was faced with a son that was motivated to start saving people at a really young age. Kinda new ground there.

Kal/Clark spends too much time being indecisive and mopey. Yet... he's already out there saving people anyway? He even resists showing his power in a bar incident... but then destroys the truck anyway? Which would surely reveal he has super powers? The film just seems confused with itself.

So the truck incident revealed his powers then? The only thing confused right now is me, clearly.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Yeah. Marvel characters handle catastrophic issues with a smile on their face, that´s why everything feels cartoonish and hollow. I never get the feeling that there is something important at stake. Things don´t have dramatic value on that universe. Everything feels like a big colorful playground. Everything is light.An entire city can be destroyed without conveying the feeling that someone can actually die.

I'm pretty sure, the way Tony Stark reacted to Agent Coulson's death showed there was dramatic value in it. As well as Hogan being hospitalised, his regression in personality with his own impending death, the death of Yinsen, the threat of further illegal weapons in the middle east.

Marvel Studios are more lighthearted, than the Syncopy produced films, but saying they're devoid of emotion and cartoonish is the equivalent of calling Man of Steel/TDKT grimdark and morose.

 

[Space Ghost]

I'm pretty sure, the way Tony Stark reacted to Agent Coulson's death showed there was dramatic value in it. As well as Hogan being hospitalised, his regression in personality with his own impending death, the death of Yinsen, the threat of further illegal weapons in the middle east.

Marvel Studios are more lighthearted, than the Syncopy produced films, but saying they're devoid of emotion and cartoonish is the equivalent of calling Man of Steel/TDKT grimdark and morose.

How?

Anyway. 2 minutes later they´re making jokes. Nothing feels serious.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

-"Was he married?"
"No, there was a cellist (showing Tony did actually listen)".
"I'm sorry. He seemed like a good man."
"He was an idiot (anger over his death)."
"Why? For believing?"
"For taking on Loki alone. He was out of his league, he should have waited..."
Is this the first time you've lost a soldier?"
"WE ARE NOT SOLDIERS."


Anyway, you can't criticise Avengers for making jokes when, while Metropolis is partially flattened to dust, Superman and Lois say:

"It's all downhill after the first kiss"
"I think that only applies to humans".

 

[Boom]

Or following up Zod's death with Superman nonchalantly destroying a military satellite and making a joke.

 

[The Batman]

I feel like...I would be better able to understand an MOS defender's position if they didn't spend half their time using 1978 Superman as a scapegoat for why MOS gets criticized.

Or following up Zod's death with Superman nonchalantly destroying a military satellite and making a joke.

I honestly can't believe someone in this thread recently said that MOS had an unhappy ending.

Zod's death dosen't even weigh on Clark past the initial event.

 

[Space Ghost]

-"Was he married?"
"No, there was a cellist (showing Tony did actually listen)".
"I'm sorry. He seemed like a good man."
"He was an idiot (anger over his death)."
"Why? For believing?"
"For taking on Loki alone. He was out of his league, he should have waited..."
Is this the first time you've lost a soldier?"
"WE ARE NOT SOLDIERS."


Anyway, you can't criticise Avengers for making jokes when, while Metropolis is partially flattened to dust, Superman and Lois say:

"It's all downhill after the first kiss"
"I think that only applies to humans".

Are you seriously trying to compare a movie with a couple of lighter lines to a movie where the characters are constantly trying to be funny with forced one liners? MOS is a much heavier movie than the cheerful Avengers, wich makes sense, given the threat the world is facing. There´s nothing funny about the world being attacked by Aliens. TA highly relies on comedy in order to keep the audience interested. And that´s fine, except it takes most of the dramatic value out of it.

What about when pepper falls, in IM3? It felt like nothing happened.

 

[The Endless]

The point is, some people deal with tragedy differently. Ever heard the saying "Laugh now, cry later"? Stark uses his humour as a defense mechanism, like a lot of people.

And the example with Lois and Supes kissing is even worse. They are literally standing in the remains of Metropolis. It's literally still smouldering.

As for the Avengers being more light hearted? Sure it is. And it was a huge success for it. But it still had dramatic and emotional moments. And it dealt with the aftermath of the attack a whole lot better than MoS did. We actually saw reactions from New Yorkers. We see some supporting the Avengers. We see some disbelieving of their existence. We see some suspicious of them.

Metropolis had zero characterisation in the whole film. The heroes home city is a huge thing. MoS missed the boat on that.