🇺🇸 Discussion: General Election 2024, 🥥 VS 🍊

[zeptron]

What baffles me the most is Trump winning the popular vote. Even in 2016, before we knew what he was like, he lost the popular vote. Now years later after millions of people died due to his mishandling of a pandemic that occurred and being a convicted felon with 34 felony counts and people still choose him.

 

[Ironfan72]

Democrats have to change and change now or there will never be another democrat in the white house, and frankly its now stacked against them that it might never happen, thats the problem, they think people are good and believe in institutions but we just saw once again if you dont pander to white men, you will lose, and reality is right now, republicans know how to play the hate off everyone, you think for a moment rural americans care of muslims and hispanics are deported, they couldnt care less, if anything they want those groups gone, racism is alive and well in this country and democrats seem to not understand that

 

[DarthSkywalker]

In a good or bad way? Cause all the friends I've made from Europe tell me Bernie would've been "center" or "center right" and that blew my mind.

For the better. There is basic crap in Europe that we'd kill for.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What baffles me the most is Trump winning the popular vote. Even in 2016, before we knew what he was like, he lost the popular vote. Now years later after millions of people died due to his mishandling of a pandemic that occurred and being a convicted felon with 34 felony counts and people still choose him.

I don't think Biden has been at terrible president. But he hasn't been a great one and in the perception of him has been pretty awful, especially do to post-COVID inflation.

 

[DKDetective]

A European Centrist could do insane things as American President.

Thats where it already loses me, because Trump literally told Netanjahu to go wild and all that.
On that people decided to punish the left for nothing because Genocide will happen under Trump.
That i guess was a nail in the coffin either way.

I get why she didnt distance herself stronger from Biden, afterall she is vice president.
But a stronger move to the left would have helped i think greatly.
I think more a problem was that she did not really tackle any of the peoples worries.

Not for nothing people kept talking about not knowing what she stands for.
She barely adressed the economy...a plus point for her and the democrats that was barely used.
Instead it was used by the republicans to go "If the economy is so good, why are things still so expensive".
And Harris barely adressed things like that.
I still dont get why Harris didnt made it a big argument that the economy was so good and the Job numbers so well.
By the end of the campaign it was just more of what Clinton did: "I am not trump".

Trump while lying about it, he at least adressed peoples concerns.
He blamed immigrants and all that on the high prices...but he adressed it at least.

Democrats often feel like they talk over people instead of with people.
While Republicans adress them...even if its just to lie and blame either immigrants or democrats.
It helps to adress peoples worries.

I generally agree with this except the economy being a positive for Biden and Harris. On Gaza, you are right that Trump will be even worse, but people don't think that far ahead. They just know Biden is not getting the job done.

Yes, GDP growth and jobs are good, but inflation means it doesn't feel like the economy is good for regular people. Telling them that it is good has been a major failing on both Biden and Harris for years. To go to your point of connecting with people, the way they have talked up the economy is a big part of the disconnect here. People have felt like Biden was ignoring their concerns.

Instead, if Biden and Harris had admitted the economy had issues, put that on Trump's disastrous handling of the Pandemic, and promised sweeping policies to address that years ago, like Harris' anti-price gouging proposal, it would be a different situation. Instead, Biden told everyone to calm down, the economy is good.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

My wife was in tears earlier. We live in California but she is worried about the possible nationwide abortion ban that whole Project 2025 has planned

We are considering starting a family but God forbid something goes wrong and she won’t be able to get the care she needs because of the clowns we have in power

 

[InCali]

So, having taken some time to think about it, here's my perspective on the election.

I don't think Harris lost because she "wasn't progressive enough". I think she lost because of sexism, in particular, and racism in general. It involves the attitudes of men and here's why I think the way I do....

I am of mixed race (father is Irish) and grew up in a Mexican-American family in East LA around Echo Park and later, when we bought a house, in City Terrace near Cal State LA. Now maybe some of you who grew up in similar circumstances will have had a different experience than I did, but I found many of the men in that culture to be exceedingly dismissive of women and their role in society. In addition, as Catholics, they (and this includes women) were very socially conservative. Later in life, I was a union founder, member, officer, negotiator, steward, and political activist so I knew a LOT about the mind of more white, male union members than I care to admit. Many of these are the conservative good old boys who care only about their paycheck and want the 1950s back where they drove nice cars and had people over for BBQs in the backyards on the weekend while their wives served them up lunch. My father, also a union steward, was, thankfully, an exception.

I haven't checked, but I believe women probably broke more for Harris than they did in 2020 for Biden, but these particular groups of men, I'm betting, broke even more strongly for an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon because, first off, many of them are troglodytes who honestly don't think women should be president, secondly, because they thought electing Trump would be in their best interests and the rights of women come second, and, finally, because, while sexually assaulting a woman isn't really good, it's just one of those things. If anyone thinks Harris staking out more progressive ground would have brought these men out for Harris, that's fine, but I heartily disagree. These are groups that make up a substantial part of the demographics in America and I'm ashamed of their attitudes towards women and their Stone Age mentality. They should be ashamed too (but aren't). I've criticized others on these threads for speaking of certain groups as monoliths because it's insulting to those in a particular group who aren't homophobic bigots so I want to be clear when I say the traits I'm describing are quite prevalent, but certainly not universal.

So, unfortunately, I think most of this generation of American voters really "aren't" ready for a woman president and it saddens me to see some of the attitudes among young men when I hoped for so much more from them. I think, if the Dems want to win in 2028, they are going to have to run someone like a Beshear, Newsom, etc. who has a nice smile and relatively progressive politics. Maybe things won't work out as badly as I think they will, but I am very much afraid of the next 4 years.

 

[Mani-Man]

Ive seen it a lot of times now that Democrats need to start having more modern approach to things and use the internet etc more.
But the thing is, a lot of what is popular over there is what Republicans love the most.
Anger, hate, division etc.

The most successfull podcasts etc are grifters, are people that run on conspiracies etc.
Joe Rogan for example.
How do you move into this with Liberal mindset when hate on the internet just is getting more attention?

Just a random thought;
Going forward, I think Dems really need to cool it with the celebrity enforcements. I think we’re at a point now where people don’t view celebrities in the same light we used to and a lot of people see these posts, and it solidifies their decision to go the opposite direction.

Of course they’re still people and of course are entitled to voice their support, but I think it does a lot less “good” than they think.

Considering how people treat celebrities, you would think it is a good idea...but obviously not.
Which is baffling considering how people almost act like Celebrities can walk on water and all that.
But seeing how it failed Clinton and Harris, i think it would be a good idea not to focus on Celebrity endorsement that much in the future.

I’m not giving up guys! The bad guys may have won, but people are still good, I know things look rough now but I’m still determined than ever to fight, and fight like hell. One man won’t bring us down, it’s not the end of the world, the Trump era will pass and there will be hope again. Just keep on going, keep on fighting, keep on having faith. The light is always within reach we just have to work harder than ever to reach it.

Ive been pretty down for a few hours and all.
Im not super directly involved as German, but i do felt hopeless for a while.
But in the end, im petty and spiteful and know my way is right.
Inclusion, openness, empathy etc are not flaws and i refuse to let these right wingers teach the world they are.
I refuse to give up on who i am and what i believe in...because i believe in good and that Hate will in the end fail.

In a good or bad way? Cause all the friends I've made from Europe tell me Bernie would've been "center" or "center right" and that blew my mind.

Center would be good for sure, center right...more than likely too because its still a tiny bit less right than Biden.
Sanders is always a bit hard to say, i would consider him slightly center left but its hard to pinpoint him.
Calling him Center right is really wild, i have a hard time seeing where he would be considered a European center right guy.

 

[blueharvest]

It’s Happening Again

And until Democrats can find a way to win back some large chunk of working-class voters, Donald Trump’s successors will be favored in the next presidential election too.

jacobin.com

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

It’s Happening Again

And until Democrats can find a way to win back some large chunk of working-class voters, Donald Trump’s successors will be favored in the next presidential election too.

jacobin.com

Clinton, Biden, and Harris basically all did the same among Republican crossover voters.

 

[Mani-Man]

I generally agree with this except the economy being a positive for Biden and Harris. On Gaza, you are right that Trump will be even worse, but people don't think that far ahead. They just know Biden is not getting the job done.

Yes, GDP growth and jobs are good, but inflation means it doesn't feel like the economy is good for regular people. Telling them that it is good has been a major failing on both Biden and Harris for years. To go to your point of connecting with people, the way they have talked up the economy is a big part of the disconnect here. People have felt like Biden was ignoring their concerns.

Instead, if Biden and Harris had admitted the economy had issues, put that on Trump's disastrous handling of the Pandemic, and promised sweeping policies to address that years ago, like Harris' anti-price gouging proposal, it would be a different situation. Instead, Biden told everyone to calm down, the economy is good.

Yup and i dont get why they didnt focus more on the part when Trump used it constantly.
Being honest with the people that yes the inflation is there and not easy to handle, that it exists because Trump was handling the pandemic awful and promising steps to fix it...would have been so much better.

They could have tackled all the points Trump was making and took away his ammunition.
Like, why have they barely talked about Trumps insane Tariff plan?

They expected people to just know this stuff? How?
Explain to people why Trumps policies are bad in easy and understandable terms and what YOUR steps will be.

Like i said before, till the end one of the biggest problems were that people kept asking what Harris politics will be going forward, because they genuinely didnt knew.

Democrats have to stop run on vibes and stuff.
Adress peoples struggles and tell them why you are the better alternative.

 

[blueharvest]

The sad truth is that anti-feminist backlash helped propel Trump to victory | Malaika Jabali

Most American men have nothing in common with a billionaire – but he spoke to their resentment and anxiety, says the writer Malaika Jabali

www.theguardian.com

 

[Hobgoblin]

I have no idea what we do to handle this. I just hope it isn’t as bad as it seems and he doesn’t actually care about any of the crap he’s been talking about for years. I mean, he chanted “lock her up” a million times in 2016 and Hillary is still free.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[AndrewGilkison]

My takeaways

Celebrity endorsements No one gives a **** on either side. Its great that Taylor Swift endorsed Harris, but unless Taylor Swift is the one running for President, it doesn't matter.

Legacy media Useless. No one listens to them, and they are even starting to be scared of Trump. The Washington Post pulled an endorsement for Harris because they were worried it would piss off Trump. So don't expect them to start holding Trump accountable when they have done just as much as anyone to normalize him. We are competing with the Joe Rogan's and Logan Paul's of the world. Republicans are dominating the online/social media space and radicalizing people. We need to stop conceding that space to them. Democrats need to start going on those types of podcasts and use social media a lot more. Go to where the voters are.

Branding The Democratic Party has a branding problem, and a messaging problem. A lot of voters are low information, which makes them easy to radicalize and con, and want quick fixes to complex problems, and Democrats don't do **** about it. Inflation is a global problem affecting the entire world, but everyone in the USA thinks its Biden's fault. Why wasn't Harris doing more to educate, and talk about the good things the Biden admin have done for the economy? Why let Trump frame the narrative with his bull****? His tariffs are going to hurt the economy even more, but how much did Harris talk about that as opposed to telling everyone how corrupt Trump was (which he is, but that message was ultimately undermined by the mainstream media normalizing him and new media that the Republicans are owning the space of, which is its own bubble), and focusing on social issues mostly.

Moderate republicans They are not going to save us. The Republican Party has largely cast them out in favor of radicalization and Trumpism. No one listens to them. All it does is make democrats look like hypocrites when you parade the endorsements of the Cheney's around when they were the enemy of Democrats during the Bush years.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

Center would be good for sure, center right...more than likely too because its still a tiny bit less right than Biden.
Sanders is always a bit hard to say, i would consider him slightly center left but its hard to pinpoint him.
Calling him Center right is really wild, i have a hard time seeing where he would be considered a European center right guy.

To be fair, my Euro friends are pretty left even of me lol

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So, having taken some time to think about it, here's my perspective on the election.

I don't think Harris lost because she "wasn't progressive enough". I think she lost because of sexism, in particular, and racism in general. It involves the attitudes of men and here's why I think the way I do....

I am of mixed race (father is Irish) and grew up in a Mexican-American family in East LA around Echo Park and later, when we bought a house, in City Terrace near Cal State LA. Now maybe some of you who grew up in similar circumstances will have had a different experience than I did, but I found many of the men in that culture to be exceedingly dismissive of women and their role in society. In addition, as Catholics, they (and this includes women) were very socially conservative. Later in life, I was a union founder, member, officer, negotiator, steward, and political activist so I knew a LOT about the mind of more white, male union members than I care to admit. Many of these are the conservative good old boys who care only about their paycheck and want the 1950s back where they drove nice cars and had people over for BBQs in the backyards on the weekend while their wives served them up lunch. My father, also a union steward, was, thankfully, an exception.

I haven't checked, but I believe women probably broke more for Harris than they did in 2020 for Biden, but these particular groups of men, I'm betting, broke even more strongly for an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon because, first off, many of them are troglodytes who honestly don't think women should be president, secondly, because they thought electing Trump would be in their best interests and the rights of women come second, and, finally, because, while sexually assaulting a woman isn't really good, it's just one of those things. If anyone thinks Harris staking out more progressive ground would have brought these men out for Harris, that's fine, but I heartily disagree. These are groups that make up a substantial part of the demographics in America and I'm ashamed of their attitudes towards women and their Stone Age mentality. They should be ashamed too (but aren't). I've criticized others on these threads for speaking of certain groups as monoliths because it's insulting to those in a particular group who aren't homophobic bigots so I want to be clear when I say the traits I'm describing are quite prevalent, but certainly not universal.

So, unfortunately, I think most of this generation of American voters really "aren't" ready for a woman president and it saddens me to see some of the attitudes among young men when I hoped for so much more from them. I think, if the Dems want to win in 2028, they are going to have to run someone like a Beshear, Newsom, etc. who has a nice smile and relatively progressive politics. Maybe things won't work out as badly as I think they will, but I am very much afraid of the next 4 years.

There is a lot of misogyny. Do you know how you get around those things? Give people a better present and future. Leftist policies when it comes to healthcare, inflation, home buying, etc. would vastly improve the lives of working class men. Something Dems refused to do.

Bernie is 100% right when he emphasizes how you stoke anger against "the other", by using real problems and pointing at BS solutions.

Would it cure everything? No. But people aren't upset at women for existing. They're upset that the government doesn't give a **** about them and the right gives them somewhere to target said anger.

Who in the Dem party will really be feeling the hurt today? Kamala can be embarrassed, hurt, but she goes back to being a well off American.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My takeaways

Celebrity endorsements No one gives a **** on either side. Its great that Taylor Swift endorsed Harris, but unless Taylor Swift is the one running for President, it doesn't matter.

Legacy media Useless. No one listens to them, and they are even starting to be scared of Trump. The Washington Post pulled an endorsement for Harris because they were worried it would piss off Trump. So don't expect them to start holding Trump accountable when they have done just as much as anyone to normalize him. We are competing with the Joe Rogan's and Logan Paul's of the world. Republicans are dominating the online/social media space and radicalizing people. We need to stop conceding that space to them. Democrats need to start going on those types of podcasts and use social media a lot more. Go to where the voters are.

Branding The Democratic Party has a branding problem, and a messaging problem. A lot of voters are low information, which makes them easy to radicalize and con, and want quick fixes to complex problems, and Democrats don't do **** about it. Inflation is a global problem affecting the entire world, but everyone in the USA thinks its Biden's fault. Why wasn't Harris doing more to educate, and talk about the good things the Biden admin have done for the economy? Why let Trump frame the narrative with his bull****? His tariffs are going to hurt the economy even more, but how much did Harris talk about that as opposed to telling everyone how corrupt Trump was (which he is, but that message was ultimately undermined by the mainstream media normalizing him and new media that the Republicans are owning the space of, which is its own bubble), and focusing on social issues mostly.

Moderate republicans They are not going to save us. The Republican Party has largely cast them out in favor of radicalization and Trumpism. No one listens to them. All it does is make democrats look like hypocrites when you parade the endorsements of the Cheney's around when they were the enemy of Democrats during the Bush years.

Celebrity endorsements matter. But the celebrity endorsements the Dems have are all centered on a demo that already votes for them. Look at who the Republican celebrities are and who they appeal to. UFC is a top 3 sport in this country.

 

[Zarex]

The Democratic Party website has no platform explicitly for men on their website but they do for others. That should’ve been changed years ago. Not doing the bare minimum.

Who we serve - Democrats

democrats.org

We serve everyone......except for non union white male suburbanites between the ages of 35-55.
That's a pretty big group!

It's a nice idea to think that the dems promoting a leftist economic agenda will attract voters. But as we've seen time and time again, people vote against their own financial best interests all the time. Especially when folks think the people they hate might also benefit from these policies.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Celebrity endorsements matter. But the celebrity endorsements the Dems have are all centered on a demo that already votes for them. Look at who the Republican celebrities are and who they appeal to. UFC is a top 3 sport in this country.

And that meathead Joe Rogan has one of the most popular podcasts in the nation

I’m still baffled by him. Last week he was questioning Trump and then all of a sudden he fully endorses him

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And that meathead Joe Rogan has one of the most popular podcasts in the nation

I’m still baffled by him. Last week he was questioning Trump and then all of a sudden he fully endorses him

He's a rich man who's only concern is his wallet.

 

[Mani-Man]

The sad truth is that anti-feminist backlash helped propel Trump to victory | Malaika Jabali

Most American men have nothing in common with a billionaire – but he spoke to their resentment and anxiety, says the writer Malaika Jabali

www.theguardian.com

The scary thing is, that Women dont demand that much from men...that is the scary thing.
"Dont rape and hurt us, treat us like humans, be a decent person" is all Women really demand.
And it created a new level of Hate from a large amount of Incels etc, that its truly scary.

Legacy media Useless. No one listens to them, and they are even starting to be scared of Trump. The Washington Post pulled an endorsement for Harris because they were worried it would piss off Trump. So don't expect them to start holding Trump accountable when they have done just as much as anyone to normalize him. We are competing with the Joe Rogan's and Logan Paul's of the world. Republicans are dominating the online/social media space and radicalizing people. We need to stop conceding that space to them. Democrats need to start going on those types of podcasts and use social media a lot more. Go to where the voters are.

Branding The Democratic Party has a branding problem, and a messaging problem. A lot of voters are low information, which makes them easy to radicalize and con, and want quick fixes to complex problems, and Democrats don't do **** about it. Inflation is a global problem affecting the entire world, but everyone in the USA thinks its Biden's fault. Why wasn't Harris doing more to educate, and talk about the good things the Biden admin have done for the economy? Why let Trump frame the narrative with his bull****? His tariffs are going to hurt the economy even more, but how much did Harris talk about that as opposed to telling everyone how corrupt Trump was (which he is, but that message was ultimately undermined by the mainstream media normalizing him and new media that the Republicans are owning the space of, which is its own bubble), and focusing on social issues mostly.

Moderate republicans They are not going to save us. The Republican Party has largely cast them out in favor of radicalization and Trumpism. No one listens to them. All it does is make democrats look like hypocrites when you parade the endorsements of the Cheney's around when they were the enemy of Democrats during the Bush years.

Legacy Media for sure needs to die.
Part of me wants Trump to end them because they thought catering to him would save them.
They were so gleefull in calling biden old, when he stepped down they suddenly didnt care about age.
They sanewashed Trump, excused everything with him while tearing into harris for everything.
They literally screamed that Biden calling trump supporter garbage would be so bad, while Ignoring days later Trump calling harris literally trash.
Legacy Media needs to be ignored by the democrats going forward.
Talk to the young, embrace the internet and dont let the right take over these spaces.

Branding and messaging i go with.
They left the "educating" to the media...which was a bad mistake.
Use the modern ways to sell yourself, especially sell yourself as the better option...not the "less bad" one.

I still dont get how they thought running around with Liz Cheney would be a good idea.

Hindsight is 20/20, now we realize the problems that were obvious...after the hype and hope has turned into dirt.
The important thing is that Democrats finally realize the problems and start adressing them.

To be fair, my Euro friends are pretty left even of me lol

The European left can be really messy, its wild.

 

[Venom 1988]

What baffles me the most is Trump winning the popular vote. Even in 2016, before we knew what he was like, he lost the popular vote. Now years later after millions of people died due to his mishandling of a pandemic that occurred and being a convicted felon with 34 felony counts and people still choose him.

Obviously we are still waiting on the remaining total of votes so the number will change but if you look at the amount of votes Trump currently has, it's actually less than what he got in 2020 (so far anyway). Currently he has around 71 million while he had 74 million in 2020. The problem is Biden got around 81 million and Harris currently has around 66 million. So it's less that Trump become more popular but rather that a lot of more people didn't want to vote for Harris. So as it stands right now he won with less votes than he got the last time.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Huh... I was expecting a battle and a possible Trump win. But to win the electoral with ease AND the popular vote? Madness.

The democrats need to take a step back now and actively LET Trump burn it all down. Let him enact his foolish policies. Let him run wild. And let his followers see just how clueless he is and how much their lives WILL NOT get better.

2028 is going to have the whitest, straightest, most banal candidate the democrats have pushed in a long time. It's clear to see where it all went wrong... Hillary Clinton should never have been allowed to run in the first place. A strong male candidate could have stopped Trump before he really started.

Still, it would be nice to see a female US president in my lifetime.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We serve everyone......except for non union white male suburbanites between the ages of 35-55.
That's a pretty big group!

It's a nice idea to think that the dems promoting a leftist economic agenda will attract voters. But as we've seen time and time again, people vote against their own financial best interests all the time. Especially when folks think the people they hate might also benefit from these policies.

So how do you appeal to white men outside of economics without chasing off other voters?