Discussion: Racism - Part 3

[DarthSkywalker]

Causing no issues other than the 2 of them refusing to make a purchase & then subsequently refusing to leave at the request of the staff because of this.

As for looking at their polices, it's such an ambiguous term it really means very little. No policy they have regarding notifying the authorities if you are asked to leave (for whatever reason) & refuse, will change.

They were waiting for their last member to arrive t to order. Again, I ask if they were white, would they have been asked to leave because they asked to use the restroom, and then have the cops called on them?

 

[KevTravels]

whites? no

the system that enables black and brown bodies to be murdered in the streets with no consequence, and a large bunch of the citizenry that is clearly ok with it...very much so

I hate the landscape that lets people rationalize their hate, that Michael Brown and Tamir Rice had it coming, that Trayvon Martin deserved to die

that's what I hate

^this

We still have so many racists and fascists in America. And so many making apologies for this views. It's sickening.

 

[KevTravels]

Shouldn't the issue here be the staff member who called the cops in the first place, rather than the officer's behavior?

The police chief (a black dude) has a point there. They weren't just randomly passing through and decided to arrest a couple of idle black guys hanging out. They received a call-in from staff members about people occupying sales space without purchasing anything.

The arrests are totally overkill, but the staff escalated it to that, not the cops. I guess if they'd tried other more polite/reasonable methods first (politely asked them to buy something if they wanted to sit in the store, and the guys had refused, and aggressively), the calling of cops would be warranted. Sounds like that's not what happened though, looks like the cops was the initial go-to move.

Which is dumb. But that's not on the officers, once they get a complaint and there is some genuine tresspassing, they've gotta take the guys out of there.

Good point. I really don't get it at all. If they're sitting there, it can be annoying that they don't point but not an issue. If you had other paying customers and they were still there, then def ask them to pay or to leave. But simply calling the cops is just ludicrous.

People are so insecure and paranoid and just jump to levels of insanity.

 

[KevTravels]

Amazing that the woman was from El Salvador. We often seem to overlook the severe racism coming out of places other than the USA/Europe or certain Asian nations.

 

[RockSP]

I've read half a dozen articles & flicked through the woman's Twitter feed & unless I'm missing it, she doesn't mention that she asked staff & was allowed to use the restroom facilities without hassle. Got a link for that part?

http://6abc.com/what-a-witness-says-happened-during-phila-starbucks-arrests/3342444/

"Lauren said another woman had entered the Starbucks minutes before the men were arrested and was given the bathroom code without having to buy anything and that another person in the restaurant at the time of the incident "announced that she had been sitting at Starbucks for the past couple of hours without buying anything."

So the part I had wrong is it wasn't the lady herself who said she wasn't hassled for the bathroom code, but a third party talking about it.

You might say she is lying...after all that's what you implied earlier...but there appears to be another recent incident: https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...bucks-refusal-let-him-use-restroom/521233002/

Maybe these people are lying too. Maybe this was staged. And maybe there are racists in the world doing racist things.

 

[Teelie]

Amazing that the woman was from El Salvador. We often seem to overlook the severe racism coming out of places other than the USA/Europe or certain Asian nations.

Not really amazing beyond people overlook racism isn't exclusive to white people or certain countries. Every country, every ethnicity, every type of person has someone who is racist in it. They are just not as widely noticed.

 

[chamber-music]

whites? no

the system that enables black and brown bodies to be murdered in the streets with no consequence, and a large bunch of the citizenry that is clearly ok with it...very much so

I hate the landscape that lets people rationalize their hate, that Michael Brown and Tamir Rice had it coming, that Trayvon Martin deserved to die

that's what I hate

Reminds me of this 1963 Martin Luther King qoute

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

 

[Mad Ones]

whites? no

the system that enables black and brown bodies to be murdered in the streets with no consequence, and a large bunch of the citizenry that is clearly ok with it...very much so

I hate the landscape that lets people rationalize their hate, that Michael Brown and Tamir Rice had it coming, that Trayvon Martin deserved to die

that's what I hate

Very this.

Who people are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to is pretty revealing.

 

[B]

They were waiting for their last member to arrive t to order. Again, I ask if they were white, would they have been asked to leave because they asked to use the restroom, and then have the cops called on them?

They weren't asked to leave though because they asked to use the restroom, they were asked to leave because they refused to purchase something. It's a coffee house, not a restaurant in which ordering out of sync with your party would really matter.

Why wouldn't the authorities be called if 2 white men refused to make a purchase & then consequently refused to leave at the request of the staff?

Myself & some friends had been told at a pub before that we'd each have to buy at least 1 drink in order to be allowed to stay to watch an FA Cup final several years ago. Naturally we all went to the bar & got ourselves drinks ranging from beers to Coca Cola's, the point being that if we'd said no, they'd have either had some bouncers somewhere that would have trailed us out by the scruff of the neck or they'd have called the authorities to do it for them.

http://6abc.com/what-a-witness-says-happened-during-phila-starbucks-arrests/3342444/

"Lauren said another woman had entered the Starbucks minutes before the men were arrested and was given the bathroom code without having to buy anything and that another person in the restaurant at the time of the incident "announced that she had been sitting at Starbucks for the past couple of hours without buying anything."

So the part I had wrong is it wasn't the lady herself who said she wasn't hassled for the bathroom code, but a third party talking about it.

Was this by the same member of staff? My understanding is that the 2 men asked the shift manager for use of the restroom to which she obviously declared that it was for paying customers only & she was consequently the one that called the police & dealt with them. Was she the one that gave the code out to the other lady moments earlier or was that another member of staff? If that's the case, then fair enough there was obvious discrimination involved if the same staff member had given access to 1 person but not another. This is presuming the third party hasn't got their facts mixed up & the women given access hadn't already purchased & finished something before she'd laid eyes on her.

As for the women claiming to have been sitting there for hours, I find it hard to believe that the staff fully knew she had been there for as long without buying anything, although from what I'm being told it's common to be allowed to go into places like this in the US & take up chairs/table space even if you or your party have no intentions of buying anything.. which sounds ludicrous to me that they'd knowingly allow you to do that in a buisness.

You might say she is lying...after all that's what you implied earlier...but there appears to be another recent incident: https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...bucks-refusal-let-him-use-restroom/521233002/

Maybe these people are lying too. Maybe this was staged. And maybe there are racists in the world doing racist things.

Here's a thought for you, rather than immediately jumping to the claims of racism, ever thought it might have been a simple mix up?

In the link you've posted when the man confronts the staff, the lady he's talking to declares she's the store manager & that she didn't give the white patron the code to which he doesn't argue, which would indicate it was true. Might he have been given the code by another member of staff that didn't follow proper protocol?

 

[chaseter]

Will the Left boycott Starbucks now!? Lol no way. Hell would have to freeze over first.

Joking aside...what was done was wrong to those two men and they should get a nice fat apology other than words from Starbucks. The manager overreacted. However, it is interesting that the cops were there for 15 minutes before making an arrest.

 

[KevTravels]

Not really amazing beyond people overlook racism isn't exclusive to white people or certain countries. Every country, every ethnicity, every type of person has someone who is racist in it. They are just not as widely noticed.

Which is exactly what I said

 

[ComicBookNerd]

I personally don’t have too much sympathy for those customers. If they were asked to leave for not ordering anything, they should’ve either bought the cheapest item or just left. Then they should’ve left when the cops came to tell them to leave. Maybe the manager overreacted, and maybe they should be fired for the negative publicity, but I don’t think this is an example of racism. I would probably be asked to leave if I went into Starbucks, used their bathroom, & just made myself at home without ordering anything, and I’m white.

 

[ComicBookNerd]

This lady & her son win the POS award of the day IMO
[YT]ih7PKVMtb0A[/YT]
-racist
-sexist
-homophobic
-disrespect women in the service
-assault a pregnant woman

Wow...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They weren't asked to leave though because they asked to use the restroom, they were asked to leave because they refused to purchase something. It's a coffee house, not a restaurant in which ordering out of sync with your party would really matter.

Why wouldn't the authorities be called if 2 white men refused to make a purchase & then consequently refused to leave at the request of the staff?

Myself & some friends had been told at a pub before that we'd each have to buy at least 1 drink in order to be allowed to stay to watch an FA Cup final several years ago. Naturally we all went to the bar & got ourselves drinks ranging from beers to Coca Cola's, the point being that if we'd said no, they'd have either had some bouncers somewhere that would have trailed us out by the scruff of the neck or they'd have called the authorities to do it for them.



Was this by the same member of staff? My understanding is that the 2 men asked the shift manager for use of the restroom to which she obviously declared that it was for paying customers only & she was consequently the one that called the police & dealt with them. Was she the one that gave the code out to the other lady moments earlier or was that another member of staff? If that's the case, then fair enough there was obvious discrimination involved if the same staff member had given access to 1 person but not another. This is presuming the third party hasn't got their facts mixed up & the women given access hadn't already purchased & finished something before she'd laid eyes on her.

As for the women claiming to have been sitting there for hours, I find it hard to believe that the staff fully knew she had been there for as long without buying anything, although from what I'm being told it's common to be allowed to go into places like this in the US & take up chairs/table space even if you or your party have no intentions of buying anything.. which sounds ludicrous to me that they'd knowingly allow you to do that in a buisness.



Here's a thought for you, rather than immediately jumping to the claims of racism, ever thought it might have been a simple mix up?

In the link you've posted when the man confronts the staff, the lady he's talking to declares she's the store manager & that she didn't give the white patron the code to which he doesn't argue, which would indicate it was true. Might he have been given the code by another member of staff that didn't follow proper protocol?

Why would they notice the two black men hadn't ordered something, but not the woman who also asked to use the bathroom?

Here is the basic problem with your argument. That it happened at all with someone else, no matter who the staff was, it means their is no hard and fast rule. It only came up with two black men, who were waiting.

In the US people sit in coffee shops for hours, browsing on their phones and laptops. Doing work, playing video games. They aren't like bars and restaurants. Though a place like Red Robin over here, with its bottomless streak fries, is nice place to camp out for a few hours if you like.

 

[B]

Why would they notice the two black men hadn't ordered something, but not the woman who also asked to use the bathroom?

The 2 men weren't just noticed randomly in a crowded Starbucks, they'd asked to use the restroom & when they were told it was for paying customers only, they must have just accepted that ruling, then went & took a seat. So the person they asked, who from what I gather was the shift manager, presumably at the till, knew they hadn't bought anything.

As for the woman that gained access, could be for any number of reasons, could have been that she had already bought & finished something before the third party account of what happened laid eyes on her, could have been that she'd agreed to buy something after using the bathroom & was given the benefit of the doubt or she might very well have been in the very same position as the 2 men & just dealt with a different staff member or it could well have been downright racism/discrimination.

Here is the basic problem with your argument. That it happened at all with someone else, no matter who the staff was, it means their is no hard and fast rule. It only came up with two black men, who were waiting.

There is a hard rule though though & it's that the restrooms are strictly for paying customers only. I know that it's in place in the UK & in at least New York so I would presume it's a universal rule.

The same rule applies in other American establishments like McDonald's, Burger King & I believe Subway, I've never had to ask in Starbucks, but I have been caught short before & asked to use the restrooms in McDonald's while not buying anything & I've been both permitted & refused access (to which I bought a McFlurry for £1, small price to pay for not pissing myself ). While it may be store policy, some staff members don't care, but the shift managers obviously will as they'd be the ones typically doing things by the book.

In the US people sit in coffee shops for hours, browsing on their phones and laptops. Doing work, playing video games. They aren't like bars and restaurants. Though a place like Red Robin over here, with its bottomless streak fries, is nice place to camp out for a few hours if you like.

I believe you, it does happen in the UK as well to an extent, I've seen people linger in coffee shops playing on phones, laptops or even reading books for a while, however it's usually lingering after they've bought & finished their order which I surmise is acceptable. I've never seen it happen, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't as I don't frequent daily in coffee shops, go in with no intentions of buying anything & park themselves up for an hour or 2 with the staff knowing about it.

 

[obredaan]

This lady & her son win the POS award of the day IMO
[YT]ih7PKVMtb0A[/YT]
-racist
-sexist
-homophobic
-disrespect women in the service
-assault a pregnant woman

Wow...

100% that's a Trump supporter who probably hates Kaepernick for disrespecting the flag.

 

[RockSP]

There is a hard rule though though & it's that the restrooms are strictly for paying customers only. I know that it's in place in the UK & in at least New York so I would presume it's a universal rule.

The same rule applies in other American establishments like McDonald's, Burger King & I believe Subway,...

Wait are you saying that rule applies to American establishments in the UK? Because that's definitely not a rule here in the US. At least not in any McDonald's, Burger King or Subway I've ever been in.

 

[Aximili86]

*Shrugs* It basically is around here too, to back him on this. Not sure they generally enforce it though, but it's sort of an understood thing.

That doesn't mean it's actually on-paper as part of the chain's operating procedures for staff though, not sure about that.

 

[Travesty]

It basically depends on where you live. Most major cities are more strict on this. Probably due to homeless loitering, or people doing drugs in the bathroom, or the overall real estate they have to accompany paying customers. Cities are big and busy, and you probably don't have a huge building, so you need as much space possible, for people who are actually paying. But if you live in a more suburban area, you're not going to see those rules being put into place as much, because you don't have to deal with those types of situations, and you probably have more room to accompany more people.

 

[the last son]

Starbucks will close every location on May 29th for racial equality. I like it.

 

[Frodo]

I live in a Southern California suburb , and people will hang out at the starbucks to study, work, meet, etc and alot of times they may not buy anything. They'll let you use the restroom without problems. I'm a black guy who's hung out at the Starbucks and done work there without buying anything, and ive never experienced any hassle or problems there.

I was surprised to hear about the incident in Philly. Then again , I live in a multi-cultural community where everyone gets along, and the Starbucks staff itself is made up of a people from a variety of different cultures .

 

[Erzengel]

It basically depends on where you live. Most major cities are more strict on this. Probably due to homeless loitering, or people doing drugs in the bathroom, or the overall real estate they have to accompany paying customers. Cities are big and busy, and you probably don't have a huge building, so you need as much space possible, for people who are actually paying. But if you live in a more suburban area, you're not going to see those rules being put into place as much, because you don't have to deal with those types of situations, and you probably have more room to accompany more people.

I was in New Orleans last month, every restaurant, bar, etc., had a restroom for paying patrons only. However, there was a noticeable homeless problem.

 

[B]

Wait are you saying that rule applies to American establishments in the UK? Because that's definitely not a rule here in the US. At least not in any McDonald's, Burger King or Subway I've ever been in.

The only US city I've ever been in has been New York & it was there so I don't know what to tell you. Both McDonald's & Starbucks both had passive aggressive signs in the stores I was in stating that restrooms were strictly for paying customers only.

Dunkin Donuts I believe was another that had a sign if I recall but there aren't actually very many of those in the UK anymore.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Common practice in Boston and environs.

 

[Marvolo]

I would like to add that my local Starbucks cafes allow people to sit and read and work without purchasing anything. The one in my local Barnes and Noble even has armchairs for people to sit and read books in.

Besides, Starbucks's is overpriced and probably makes more than enough profits. So them allowing two customers to occupy two seats without ordering anything isnt going to harm Starbucks' profit margins. Allowing them to use the restroom isnt going to hurt Starbucks. I understand that they don't want a bunch of non costumers treating Starbucks restrooms like a public portajon, but the store manager can use common ****ing sense and understand that occassionally allowing non customers to use the restrooms isnt going to hurt starbucks. I have zero sympathy for Starbucks or the dumb manager.