Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 2

[Sithborg]

The other ballots have until the 20th to arrive by mail.

 

[squeekness]

Thanks.

 

[CaptainWagner]

So now Feinstein is on the record voicing support for Haspel as the CIA nominee. This kind of crap is exactly why it's time for her to go. There's a decent chance the Senate can actually stop one of Trump's worst nominees yet, the last thing we need is Dems defecting to back a war criminal.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

How bad were these flyers?

I wish I had taken pics of them before trashing them.

One was an all black background with the face of a young teen girl looking frightened, with an adult male hand over her mouth reaching from behind. The text said something about how Lamb had accepted a plea deal of a sexual assaulter, instead of helping the victims.

A lot of them focused on Nancy Pelosi. The funniest one was:

Three scary words:

"Speaker Nancy Pelosi"

 

[Marvolo]

I wish I had taken pics of them before trashing them.

One was an all black background with the face of a young teen girl looking frightened, with an adult male hand over her mouth reaching from behind. The text said something about how Lamb had accepted a plea deal of a sexual assaulter, instead of helping the victims.

A lot of them focused on Nancy Pelosi. The funniest one was:

Three scary words:

"Speaker Nancy Pelosi"

Wait...the GOP, the party that recently tried to put a pedophile and likely rapist in office, takes issue with Lamb going easy on a sexual assaulter? Oh, that's rich.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, damn that Feinstein for supporting someone ultra-proficient at CIA-type stuff, who didn't break the law as written, who's extremely-respected as an officer, and someone who was there under Obama's admin too, for her nomination as CIA chief.

Travesty, man.

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah, damn that Feinstein for supporting someone ultra-proficient at CIA-type stuff, who didn't break the law as written, who's extremely-respected as an officer, and someone who was there under Obama's admin too, for her nomination as CIA chief.

Travesty, man.

You must not know about Haspel's involvement in rendition, torture, psychologically damaging prisoners, and operating an off the books prison in Thailand.

And like some of us in the politics section have pointed out before, a thing being legal or in a grey area doesn't make it right. Rendition and torture are morally reprehensible and monsterous. Putting anyone involved in those heinous programs in charge of the CIA would be, as you say, a travesty. Putting her in charge of the CIA during Trump's presidency, an administration that supports torture, will probably result in human rights violations and crimes against humanity. So, as you say, yes, damn Feinstein for supporting that woman.

 

[LTuser]

And like some of us in the politics section have pointed out before, a thing being legal or in a grey area doesn't make it right. Rendition and torture are morally reprehensible and monsterous. Putting anyone involved in those heinous programs in charge of the CIA would be, as you say, a travesty. Putting her in charge of the CIA during Trump's presidency, an administration that supports torture, will probably result in human rights violations and crimes against humanity. So, as upu say, yes, damn Feinstein for supporting that woman.

IN that case, CHANGE the law, don't say cause someone followed it, that makes HER morally reprehensible, and thus unfit to hold an office..

 

[Sithborg]

Frankly, it isn't so much the torture, though from what I hear, that Thailand site was pretty heinous. She also destroyed evidence of what they were doing, so, maybe they weren't following the law as written at the time...

I am loath to say vote against a career civil servant, but her record may not be the best to put as the face of the CIA.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The Senate rolled back Dodd Frank in bipartisan unity. You know, **** the entire political establishment. Corporate Sellouts, both of them. We need to get money out of politics.

 

[Ouch]

The Senate rolled back Dodd Frank in bipartisan unity. You know, **** the entire political establishment. Corporate Sellouts, both of them. We need to get money out of politics.

It's what happens when your country is ran by the right 100% and there is no left wing. Responsible gun regulations, responsible financial regulations and support for human rights are centrists positions. America is not a centrist country, it's a right wing one.

 

[Schlosser85]

Just because you keep saying there is no left wing in America doesn't make it a fact.

 

[Schlosser85]

Re: Haspel, if she was following the law as written at the time, then she's not a war criminal just because some people think she rightfully should be. Feelings aren't what decide whether someone is a criminal or not.

I do think it merits pause that she destroyed the videotapes of the interrogations, however

 

[Aximili86]

You must not know about Haspel's involvement in rendition, torture, psychologically damaging prisoners, and operating an off the books prison in Thailand.

All of which came as her duties in the ****ing chaos after 9/11, and which was legal. Isn't now, but was then.

So, yeah, I'm for all of that. Thank you, Haspel, you were amazing at your job and followed orders to a tee. To the limits of what the law was at the time but not over. Both parties respect you, the intelligence community thinks you're the best of the best, you seem like a pretty good candidate for this.

Whaaa, reality's unpleasant, enemies get treated unpleasantly in war. Whaaa. It was the damn case during WWII and the Cold War as well, but hey, moral superiority I guess.

 

[Sithborg]

And yet, destroyed video evidence. Which is highly suggestive that she was covering for someone not exactly following the protocol at the time.

 

[Marvolo]

IN that case, CHANGE the law, don't say cause someone followed it, that makes HER morally reprehensible, and thus unfit to hold an office..

The law doesnt say, "Go kidnap people and torture them and deny them any human rights." The Geneva Convention and the United Nations Convention against Torture that the US and a bunch of other countries signed and rattified is clear on torture being a war crime. So no she wasnt following the law. The US simply refuses to prosecute it's own war criminals.

And she is morally reprehensible and unfit to run the CIA regardless of how the US feels about torture.

 

[Aximili86]

And yet, destroyed video evidence. Which is highly suggestive that she was covering for someone not exactly following the protocol at the time.

It wasn't "evidence". There wasn't an investigation into what she was doing, it was just records without any investigation in process, which gets done all the time in these fields.

Again, the black sites weren't something against the law. Ruthless, right up to the line, totally. We were justifiably that way in the couple of years after 9/11 though, the government as a whole was making it up as it went along, whole new world, whole new circumstances. None of this was illegal at the time - no, not even the waterboarding. And shouldn't have been illegal.

She didn't invent these programs, she was carrying out orders from above. Which, again, weren't illegal.

Obama had no problem with this woman. Bush didn't. Neither had any reason to.

The ultra-left's going to hate her, she's a CIA agent for god's sake. Comes with the territory, Big Bad 'Murica. Making the hard choices, doing the things most people don't have the stomach to do. We need people like this, whether you want to accept it or not.

Another woman with a stellar reputation among people in her field, being put in a position of power. It's a good thing. "You're not one of those damn dirty sexists, are you?!" I say facetiously.

Basically, whoop-ti-****ing-doo, CIA officers are involved in some nasty **** most people wouldn't want to know about. Shock horror. GIs shot surrendering German soldiers on-sight en-masse after the Battle Of The Bulge, brass turned a blind eye. Australian/British soldiers took Japanese noses and ears as trophies in the Pacific in WWII. The Red Army treated captured SS guys like **** in '45.

The good guys do some pretty awful stuff in war. They're still the good guys.

 

[LTuser]

Frankly, it isn't so much the torture, though from what I hear, that Thailand site was pretty heinous. She also destroyed evidence of what they were doing, so, maybe they weren't following the law as written at the time...

From what i heard on the news about the 'destroying of tapes etc', it was cause she got ordered to DO so by higher ups at the CIA>.

So if anyone 'plucked up', imo its the leadership who gave the order.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yea, all things considered, I don’t really have an issue with Haspel herself.

But waterboarding was labeled a war crime at Nuremberg, and that wasn’t meant to apply only to the Nazis, but to set a precedent for the future as well.

And even if it wasn’t illegal under US law, it was illegal under international treaties that the US signed.

So she might not be the main person to blame, but what she did was still a war crime by international law whether theUS chose to follow it or not.

 

[Aximili86]

Getting into "war crimes under international law" is hilarious. They pick & choose what they want to label as that, turning the other cheek to others at their convenience.

Given it was technically legal at the time stateside, yeah, I'm cool with the CIA pouring water on people to simulate drowning, forcing peope to listen to Metallica, and making them try to sleep while floodlights are pointed at their face.

Yeah, the UN probably labels it torture. In the scheme of things though, it's pretty ****ing mild. Any other major world power in the U.S.'s position in the early 2000s would be doing a hell of a lot worse to those involved they managed to take prisoner. Unpleasantness abounds, it's the damn reality of this field. Nasty goddamn work.

 

[chaseter]

California Dems approve an illegal immigrant a State appointed job:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-undocumented-immigrant-appointed-state-122408144.html

What’s really scary, that I learned from that article, is that CA allows illegal immigrants to practice Law. What a world.....

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, pretty certain foreigners are allowed to take the CA bar exam. And if they pass, there is no reason not to allow them to practice law.

 

[CaptainWagner]

The law doesnt say, "Go kidnap people and torture them and deny them any human rights." The Geneva Convention and the United Nations Convention against Torture that the US and a bunch of other countries signed and rattified is clear on torture being a war crime. So no she wasnt following the law. The US simply refuses to prosecute it's own war criminals.

And she is morally reprehensible and unfit to run the CIA regardless of how the US feels about torture.

^^^This. Torture is unacceptable, and it's incredibly shameful that the US continues to refuse to prosecute out own war criminals. Haspel should be standing trial for her crimes, not attempting to get promoted.

California Dems approve an illegal immigrant a State appointed job:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-undocumented-immigrant-appointed-state-122408144.html

What’s really scary, that I learned from that article, is that CA allows illegal immigrants to practice Law. What a world.....

Oh no, how horrible, California's concept of what makes a human being extends beyond paperwork. It really is the end of the world, isn't it

 

[Aximili86]

It's not "foreigners" in a broad sense, Sithborg, it's illegal immigrants specifically. Of course it's a problem.

But this is California, they might as well. Not like there's any respect for the law there anymore anyway. Go for it, we've long passed the crazy threshold when it comes to CA. You could have a non-citizen run for Governor for god's sakes and nobody in San Francisco or Oakland would give a ****.

Captain, your train of thought on the torture thing is hilarious. Any conflict ever, over the 20th century, we and everyone else have done way worse. It's war, the good guys do ****ty things just like the bad guys do. War's the very worst thing humanity does, and we're by far the most humane of the major powers with prisoners. If she's a "war criminal", pretty much every senior military & intelligence officer across the globe is too. Only difference here is what was going down became public. Doesn't mean it was illegal, just disturbing. And even then, hell, not even all that disturbing on-balance. This is what conflict is.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Re: Haspel, if she was following the law as written at the time, then she's not a war criminal just because some people think she rightfully should be. Feelings aren't what decide whether someone is a criminal or not.

I do think it merits pause that she destroyed the videotapes of the interrogations, however

Whether someone is a war criminal or not is not determined by whether or not they followed laws or orders of their home country I'm pretty sure that stuff is 100% irrelevant when people are brought before international courts