Disney in talks to buy Fox: X-Men Homecoming? - Part 4

[Leo Zelinsky]

I know you disagree with my conclusion, but I'm asking a question and you say "I disagree." Similarly, months ago I pointed out how dragging Shipp for being lightskinned was f'ed up, nothing about you being racist, nor about your desire for a dark skinned storm, much less me wanting a lightskinned Storm. And now, I'm examining diversity and you're imagining I said there was no diversity. I'm starting to think you don't read my posts so much as think about how you feel and then imagine that I said things that would justify those feelings.

As I've said before, the issue is not how known the characters are, but taking the "place" of more demanded characters, and how that affects the hype machine, as well as short circuiting stories built for other characters and how that affects the overall story. This is why you can't do the same thing with Frenzy, because Frenzy is "taking a spot" and Nakia is not. Frenzy is subverting certain X-Men stories that are built for other characters, and Nakia is not, so the same thing simply can't be done.

The entire MCU takes people's spot


Antman and wasp replaced by Hawkeye and black Widow. Iron Man taking Antman spot in AoU etc etc

Monet replacing a Colossus or Rogue wouldn't be that bad






Marvel can make Ororo lightskin if they want and I'll sit back a laugh at the ****storm from black ppl. The thought of shuri as amandla already set ppl off

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

I'd prefer Scott to remain Caucasian

This is the chance to get havok, Corsair, and Vulcan correctly and I wouldn't them all to be Hispanic

 

[TheVileOne]

Race is a reductive concept. That's the problem.

OK...and? It seems reductive toward the idea that Kitty Pryde is a Jewish woman by saying she's white and privileged. Especially in this day and age, and we are talking about making media more inclusive.

No. Especially in entertainment, the idea of doing things regardless of hurt feelings is unprofitable, and moreover, unnecessary. You can change things as needed and still have an understanding, even empathy of people's hurt feelings and manage those. In this case, if the goal is to have more female representation, that is a kind of diversity that X-Men far outstrips any other superhero franchise at, so instead of replacing THE favorite X-Man Wolverine, it would accomplish your goal and also care for the most feelings to have a main team that is: Storm, Jean, Rogue, Psylocke, Wolverine and Jubilee. This is more marketable, implies more goodwill from the longstanding comics and so on and so forth.

Likewise, with raceshifting, there will definitely be ruffled feathers if Beast is an Indian guy, no doubt. There will be *more* ruffled feathers however if Beast is replaced by Neal Shaara ("WHO!?") and not just from racists, but people who care about the stories of the X-Men and Beast's position as the lovable furball uncle in them.

Just cuz you need to flip over the monopoly board doesn't mean you need to slap everyone at the table too.

Your argument makes no sense to me. It basically sounds like ruffling feathers by racebending casting is OK. But you ruffle too many feathers if say you set up a movie with X23/Laura as the new Wolverine.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Your argument makes no sense to me. It basically sounds like ruffling feathers by racebending casting is OK. But you ruffle too many feathers if say you set up a movie with X23/Laura as the new Wolverine.

My argument to using X23 as Wolverine would be outside of comics, no name recognition. This is not something like Ant-Man or the Guardians of the Galaxy where people were not familiar with them and you could use various versions and no one is mad (like using Scott instead of Pym). But, Wolverine is one of Marvel's most popular characters, and he has no MCU version of him yet. X23 only became a thing people know from Logan, but few likely know she is now Wolverine in the comics. So, when you tell people they're getting Wolverine in the upcoming Marvel X-Men movie, they expect Logan.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah and Laura became the new Wolverine. The character was also introduced onscreen to great acclaim in Logan.

OK. People are expecting Logan. So what? Change it anyway. Why not? There's already precedence for this. X-23/Laura took on the role of Wolverine after he died.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah and Laura became the new Wolverine. The character was also introduced onscreen to great acclaim in Logan.

OK. People are expecting Logan. So what? Change it anyway. Why not? There's already precedence for this. X-23/Laura took on the role of Wolverine after he died.

Once again, we have no MCU Logan in this universe, and that is what people are going to expect/want. The Foxverse is not the MCU, so her being in Logan really isn't meaningful. If Logan were Hank Pym level popular, that is a discussion. But, he clearly is above that and is one of their most popular characters. If we had an MCU Logan, you have a point. But, we don't. When you have one of the 5 biggest characters in your universe to use, you don't sideline him for a much less popular version. That makes zero business sense.

 

[TheVileOne]

We don't always get what we want out of these movies.

Also, in support of better gender inclusion, what better way to do that than having a female version of one of X-Men's biggest heroes?

 

[Fincher]

OK...and? It seems reductive toward the idea that Kitty Pryde is a Jewish woman by saying she's white and privileged. Especially in this day and age, and we are talking about making media more inclusive.

Jewish people don't seem to have any trouble appearing in movies/TV, though. Now references to Judaism itself might be harder to come by, but to be fair, how many MCU characters or movie superheroes in general are established as being Christian? Steve Rogers brought up God, but I don't recall him saying anything about Jesus.

 

[TheVileOne]

Jewish people don't seem to have any trouble appearing in movies/TV, though. Now references to Judaism itself might be harder to come by, but to be fair, how many MCU characters or movie superheroes in general are established as being Christian? Steve Rogers brought up God, but I don't recall him saying anything about Jesus.

How many Jewish Marvel superheroes are out there in film and TV?

 

[Spider-Fan]

We don't always get what we want out of these movies.

Also, in support of better gender inclusion, what better way to do that than having a female version of one of X-Men's biggest heroes?

Sorry, but toy sales and merchandise trump this argument. The X-Men have plenty of popular female characters, and if we were talking about a less popular character, this could maybe be a debate. But, we're talking about one of Marvel's biggest characters (not just one of their most popular X-Men). It won't happen and Marvel I guarantee won't entertain that thought, either. You don't pay billions to buy a company to get one of your most popular characters, only to not use them.

Sorry, bad business. Race bending characters is likely to happen, using a version of Wolverine no one cares about, won't happen.

 

[Marvel united]

Yeah, no way Marvel is replacing Logan with Laura. Maybe 10 years down the line after MCU Logan is established

 

[TheVileOne]

Sorry, but toy sales and merchandise trump this argument. The X-Men have plenty of popular female characters, and if we were talking about a less popular character, this could maybe be a debate. But, we're talking about one of Marvel's biggest characters (not just one of their most popular X-Men). It won't happen and Marvel I guarantee won't entertain that thought, either. You don't pay billions to buy a company to get one of your most popular characters, only to not use them.

Sorry, bad business. Race bending characters is likely to happen, using a version of Wolverine no one cares about, won't happen.

If we're going to sales and merchandise stuff, I mean, you we've had three Star Wars movies with a female lead. Wonder Woman. Who is to say Laura could not become just as marketable and popular as Logan with the right effort?

I'm still not getting why we should be in favor of racebending characters instead of using an existing concept from the comics that puts Laura in the role as the new Wolverine.

 

[Marvel united]

A race-bended Wolverine is the lesser of two evils but I I'm not in favor of that either

 

[Spider-Fan]

If we're going to sales and merchandise stuff, I mean, you we've had three Star Wars movies with a female lead. Wonder Woman. Who is to say Laura could not become just as marketable and popular as Logan with the right effort?

I'm still not getting why we should be in favor of racebending characters instead of using an existing concept from the comics that puts Laura in the role as the new Wolverine.

It's not the same, Vile. Star Wars was continuing the saga. What you want to do is remake the OT with Rey as a female Luke Skywalker. You're comparing Apples to Dinosaurs, and I think you know you are. Your point doesn't work in the case of Wolverine. The character Logan makes too much money in merchandise to replace him.

Not really going to say anything more on this topic. Disney is not using the Laura Wolverine in any universe, so not really worth debating.

 

[DrCosmic]

OK...and? It seems reductive toward the idea that Kitty Pryde is a Jewish woman by saying she's white and privileged. Especially in this day and age, and we are talking about making media more inclusive.

I'm all for including cultural diversity like what Kitty brings, 100%, and I made a point to acknowledge that she is Jewish. Being inclusive doesn't mean we don't get to qualify what inclusivity we're invoking.

Your argument makes no sense to me. It basically sounds like ruffling feathers by racebending casting is OK. But you ruffle too many feathers if say you set up a movie with X23/Laura as the new Wolverine.

My argument is that once the goal of diversity, whether it be racial or gender or what have you, is accomplished, there is no point in ruffling any more feathers after that, and it is in fact mean spirited as well as unwise. If there is a way to update something that accomplishes your goals that ruffles a lot of feathers, as well as a way to update something that accomplishes your goals and ruffles few feathers, the one that ruffles few feathers is thus superior.

We don't always get what we want out of these movies.

Also, in support of better gender inclusion, what better way to do that than having a female version of one of X-Men's biggest heroes?

Including female versions of their two biggest female heroes and having them take the focus that is usually only given to Wolverine is clearly better for gender inclusion, if for no other reason than that you're including a host of female-centric storylines that go with that character into your buzz and brainstorming.

Edit: Bonus points, you can use Wolverine in this case to model how to cope with not being the most important person all the time in the face of powerful women, instead of sending the message that powerful women means the exclusion of certain men.

The entire MCU takes people's spot

Antman and wasp replaced by Hawkeye and black Widow. Iron Man taking Antman spot in AoU etc etc

Monet replacing a Colossus or Rogue wouldn't be that bad

Marvel can make Ororo lightskin if they want and I'll sit back a laugh at the ****storm from black ppl. The thought of shuri as amandla already set ppl off

The entire MCU? Your examples are Ant-Man and Wasp, who were unavailable because of the Edgar Wright film development, and they were replaced by characters who were arguably more popular and desired and narratively compatible than them already. This is not the case with Rogue and Monet. Monet would not be nearly as good.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

The entire MCU? Your examples are Ant-Man and Wasp, who were unavailable because of the Edgar Wright film development, and they were replaced by characters who were arguably more popular and desired and narratively compatible than them already. This is not the case with Rogue and Monet. Monet would not be nearly as good.

Yes in multiple films I don't want to list them all but it happens alot. Ego and Star-Lord... Hela as a sister instead of daughter etc etc etc

 

[Fincher]

How many Jewish Marvel superheroes are out there in film and TV?

In terms of the characters, I don't know if it extends beyond Magneto being in the Holocaust (and I realize he's not a superhero), but like I said, these shows and movies show limited interest in religion in general. In terms of actors, Robert Downey, Jr., Scarlett Johansson, and Andrew Garfield are Jewish, and that's what I got from a very quick search.

I'm not saying Kitty can't or shouldn't be established as Jewish, but those expecting diversity won't be pacified by that.

 

[DrCosmic]

How many Jewish Marvel superheroes are out there in film and TV?

Not enough.

They still are asked to check 'White' on the US census though. They are played by White actors and Jewish actors play White people and no one calls it racebending. That's all I'm saying. Jews are kinda like the minority that "made it" out of minoritydom, imho.

Yes in multiple films I don't want to list them all but it happens alot. Ego and Star-Lord... Hela as a sister instead of daughter etc etc etc

What more popular character did Ego take the place of? Hela? What storylines for J'son or Angela were missed? The answer is none. Moreover, because Ego and Hela are among the most popular and desired options for their 'spots' they're actually examples of what I'm talking about, changing the most popular characters, sometimes in "important" ways, instead of replacing them with less developed less desired for characters. What I'm suggesting happens a lot. What you're suggesting does not.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

What more popular character did Ego take the place of? Hela? What storylines for J'son or Angela were missed? The answer is none. Moreover, because Ego and Hela are among the most popular and desired options for their 'spots' they're actually examples of what I'm talking about, changing the most popular characters, sometimes in "important" ways, instead of replacing them with less developed less desired for characters. What I'm suggesting happens a lot. What you're suggesting does not.

Hela & Ego we're not popular characters and they changed the storyline to fit the movies. I'm saying they can use unpopular characters and change the storyline to fit the X-MEN movie like they do in numerous MCU movies like Ant-Man etc.

 

[DrCosmic]

Hela & Ego we're not popular characters and they changed the storyline to fit the movies. I'm saying they can use unpopular characters and change the storyline to fit the X-MEN movie like they do in numerous MCU movies like Ant-Man etc.

Unpopular compared to who?

After all, Cyclops is not as popular as Iron Man, but using him as an X-Man instead of Iron Man isn't considered using an unpopular character, because Cyclops is one of the most popular X-Men. Likewise Hela is one of the more popular Thor villains, and only showed up after more popular Thor villains have had their time to shine.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Unpopular compared to who?.

The General Audience didn't know or care about Hela or Ego before 2017.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's not the same, Vile. Star Wars was continuing the saga. What you want to do is remake the OT with Rey as a female Luke Skywalker. You're comparing Apples to Dinosaurs, and I think you know you are. Your point doesn't work in the case of Wolverine. The character Logan makes too much money in merchandise to replace him.

Not really going to say anything more on this topic. Disney is not using the Laura Wolverine in any universe, so not really worth debating.

MCU is a continuing saga.

 

[TheVileOne]

Not enough.

They still are asked to check 'White' on the US census though. They are played by White actors and Jewish actors play White people and no one calls it racebending. That's all I'm saying. Jews are kinda like the minority that "made it" out of minoritydom, imho.

I don't really appreciate that line of reasoning. Also, not for female superheroes, of which Kitty Pryde is a prominent Jewish female superhero, who could be a much bigger star in the future X-Men films than how she's been utilized in the past.

My argument is that once the goal of diversity, whether it be racial or gender or what have you, is accomplished, there is no point in ruffling any more feathers after that, and it is in fact mean spirited as well as unwise. If there is a way to update something that accomplishes your goals that ruffles a lot of feathers, as well as a way to update something that accomplishes your goals and ruffles few feathers, the one that ruffles few feathers is thus superior.

It seems like a hair splitting argument. To me there's no verifiable proof on the amount of jimmies rustled for one change vs. the other.

Not to mention, if you keep Wolverine as a white male and one of the top heroes, that will also ruffle a lot of feathers as well if you think about it. The problem is that there is lack of inclusion, gender and racial diversity.

Well, if we really want to fix that. Then we have X-23/Laura, who became Wolverine the comics. Make her the new Wolverine of the MCU, just like Marvel Studios is using the current version of Captain Marvel, Carol Danvers, which started fairly recently in 2012. They picked the latest female iteration fo Captain Marvel over Mar-Vell and Genus-Vell; two white male versions of Captain Marvel.

 

[Spider-Fan]

MCU is a continuing saga.

Yeah I loved the Wolverine in the Iron Man movies... Oh wait that's right he wasn't in any of those.

 

[CaptainWagner]

People are always going to whine because their personal favorite mutant isn't the star of the franchise. Trying to pick a team based on "who the fans want" is a hopeless and futile task. They need to compile a team based compelling characterization, uniqueness of powerset, and desired diversity of the cast.

Many of the most famous X-Men just aren't that interesting in the grand scheme of things, while lesser known mutants like Oya or Quentin provide much more fascinating character arcs.