World Doc Ock's lair

[Venom_uk]

he on JD & Coke by any chance?

 

[Venom_uk]

Doc just said I'm a drunk spammwer. Pwersaonally I don't believe him...

 

[The Joker]

Doc just said I'm a drunk spammwer. Pwersaonally I don't believe him...

QUIET

Ock never lies.Just ask the rest of the Sinister Six

 

[Venom_uk]

This is true. Ock does tell it as it is. He won't BS you. He'll tell you when he's about to double cross you or whatever. He's good like that. lol

 

[Silver S]

This is true. Ock does tell it as it is. He won't BS you. He'll tell you when he's about to double cross you or whatever. He's good like that. lol

That's one thing Ock can put on his resume, right below 'Master Planner."

 

[Nicklogic]

Under Qualities: "Can beat your ass if not accepted for this job"

 

[Symbiotica]

.... Is UK hittin' the sauce again?

Today was the last day of the formidable challenges I have been facing for the past seven days, and as a result I feel like one who has just staggered out of the boxing-ring, uncertain as to whether victory by technicality has been achieved or not. Enough of these mystifying ramblings....

I have just read "Year One" and I will remark that although I do not have much good to say about Marvel most of the time, and with good reason, the hope of this type of thing is why I still give them chances.

Year One is a tragedy of almost Shakespearian proportions. Blame aplenty is to be laid at everyone's door, not excluding his mother for her vicious, selfish derailing of what might have been the only thing keeping Octavius the least bit connected to the rest of humanity at that point: his attraction to Mary Alice. Wow that ticked me off. We all knew his father was a brutish lout too stupid to know better, but I expected his mother to have shown more sense. Not to mention if you have someone with a mind like that, don't we want to preserve the bloodline?! Hello, we need a female to get that done...!

This story awed and greatly saddened me, the best of Marvel's work usually does.

I think we need this posted over in Slag's MJ thread in the spoilers forum. ASAP.

 

[Venom_uk]

.... Is UK hittin' the sauce again?

I was indeed.

Hell, you're only 21 once after all. Also, 'cos I was out for my b'day, it was a pretty cheap night with everyone else buying the majority of my drinks. Although one of my mates did buy me a green shot of something very strong which made my bloody tongue go numb for well over a minute. Tasted bloody awfull too!

Why is when I'm drunk I always end up in here?!? lol

 

[The Joker]

Today was the last day of the formidable challenges I have been facing for the past seven days, and as a result I feel like one who has just staggered out of the boxing-ring, uncertain as to whether victory by technicality has been achieved or not. Enough of these mystifying ramblings....

You must be talking about college.I hope all your efforts pay off Sym.You can only do your best.Nobody expects anything less

I have just read "Year One" and I will remark that although I do not have much good to say about Marvel most of the time, and with good reason, the hope of this type of thing is why I still give them chances.

Year One is a tragedy of almost Shakespearian proportions. Blame aplenty is to be laid at everyone's door, not excluding his mother for her vicious, selfish derailing of what might have been the only thing keeping Octavius the least bit connected to the rest of humanity at that point: his attraction to Mary Alice. Wow that ticked me off. We all knew his father was a brutish lout too stupid to know better, but I expected his mother to have shown more sense. Not to mention if you have someone with a mind like that, don't we want to preserve the bloodline?! Hello, we need a female to get that done...!

Yay,you've finally read it.So glad you enjoyed it

Despite a couple of continuity flaws,it is one of the most powerful Ock stories out there.It really digs deep into the personality of Octavius,and shows how he became the way he is.

Mum and Dad were the worst.Worse than the bullies at school.I mean mum and dad are supposed to love you and only want what makes you happy.Ock's parents failed on all counts there.

Other villains need the Year one treatment too.I'd love to see it done for Electro,Carnage and Mysterio.

This story awed and greatly saddened me, the best of Marvel's work usually does.

Alot of the great villains have a tragic or sad background.

Norman Osborn's father used to lock him in a dark room for days when he was a boy,Cletus Kasady was thrown into orphanage after orphanage.

I think we need this posted over in Slag's MJ thread in the spoilers forum. ASAP.

Oh god yes.

This person would make Ghandi strangle him in anger

 

[Symbiotica]

... I think I'm going to borrow his tactic of imagining everyone I'm angry at being dessicated by a nuclear blast, though. LOL, that has potential. Great imagery.

 

[Silver S]

....
I have just read "Year One" and I will remark that although I do not have much good to say about Marvel most of the time, and with good reason, the hope of this type of thing is why I still give them chances.

Year One is a tragedy of almost Shakespearian proportions. Blame aplenty is to be laid at everyone's door, not excluding his mother for her vicious, selfish derailing of what might have been the only thing keeping Octavius the least bit connected to the rest of humanity at that point: his attraction to Mary Alice. Wow that ticked me off. We all knew his father was a brutish lout too stupid to know better, but I expected his mother to have shown more sense. Not to mention if you have someone with a mind like that, don't we want to preserve the bloodline?! Hello, we need a female to get that done...!

This story awed and greatly saddened me, the best of Marvel's work usually does.

Gasp! You're just NOW reading this arc? And now you know what you had been missing, eh? I also enjoyed this arc - the minimalistic art at first had me a little miffed, but after the first issue I realized it was working for the story rather than against it. Sometimes, less is indeed more. I think I was actually pulling one of those girly "Aw! " faces when he told Mary Alice her childhood musta been something for her to have fallen for Otto Octavius. Excuse me while I get a tissue.

If only things had been different for you, dear Otto.

 

[Nicklogic]

Year One, Sym, is my ultimate favorite of the arcs I have read. USM Ock comes in very close, and even the sinister six arc too, but Year One had one unique feeling about it. A literary feeling is surrounded by a sense of distraught love and pyschotic obsession with his creation to the point of calling it family. It was such a great read and a great look at his life from a personal level.

My favorite, and most emotional, arc.

 

[Symbiotica]

Gasp! You're just NOW reading this arc? And now you know what you had been missing, eh? I also enjoyed this arc - the minimalistic art at first had me a little miffed, but after the first issue I realized it was working for the story rather than against it. Sometimes, less is indeed more. I think I was actually pulling one of those girly "Aw! " faces when he told Mary Alice her childhood musta been something for her to have fallen for Otto Octavius. Excuse me while I get a tissue.

If only things had been different for you, dear Otto.

I am slow on the uptake. I admit it.

His remark to Mary Alice was the nadir of the book; it was the most upsetting thing in it by far. Despite all his claims of superiority, deep down where he hardly dared look within his own soul, he had indeed absorbed and believed everything his father had ever said about his alleged inferiority. He honestly believed himself to be a loathsome object no one could ever love, when he was and is actually a person of great inner strength and worth; difficult to know but to the chosen few he could have allowed inside his defenses... had his mother not crushed his natural desires, he could have been a person of great depth of feeling.

This book rang very psychologically true to me, it followed a believeable path as we see Otto voluntarily rejecting his own humanity in the best sociopathic tradition. This is why I say "tragedy."

The sad thing is, I think this sort of thing goes on every day, to regular humans. Most people have no idea how to parent, so children get warped and crushed. By the time everyone realizes the harm that has been done, the victim is on the evening news. And not in a good way.

 

[Herr Logan]

You must be talking about college.I hope all your efforts pay off Sym.You can only do your best.Nobody expects anything less

Don't you mean "Nobody expects anything more," or are you being a sadist again?

I mean mum and dad are supposed to love you and only want what makes you happy.Ock's parents failed on all counts there.

Man, you really do live in a land full of pixies and leprochauns, don't you?

Other villains need the Year one treatment too.I'd love to see it done for Electro,Carnage and Mysterio.

I just know they'd bastardize any villain they used.

Norman Osborn's father used to lock him in a dark room for days when he was a boy,Cletus Kasady was thrown into orphanage after orphanage.

That's the least of what happened to Cletus Kasady. He mentioned something once about being held upside down over a pit of broken glass by his parents. Physical and psychological torture were the order of the day before he ever saw the inside of an orphanage. Kasady basically has what's supposed to be a stereotypical serial killer's childhood, even though he's not a real serial killer (he's a mass murderer, which is actually much less "dark" for kids to read about than a serial killer). Norman Osborn sort of had that going on as well.

 

[The Joker]

Don't you mean "Nobody expects anything more," or are you being a sadist again?

What do you mean again??? When did I stop??

Man, you really do live in a land full of pixies and leprochauns, don't you?

Leprachauns yes,pixies no.They don't like Ireland's cold weather.

I just know they'd bastardize any villain they used.

Explain the basis of this rather bold statement feral one.

That's the least of what happened to Cletus Kasady. He mentioned something once about being held upside down over a pit of broken glass by his parents. Physical and psychological torture were the order of the day before he ever saw the inside of an orphanage. Kasady basically has what's supposed to be a stereotypical serial killer's childhood, even though he's not a real serial killer (he's a mass murderer, which is actually much less "dark" for kids to read about than a serial killer). Norman Osborn sort of had that going on as well.

Wow,I almost feel sorry for Kasady.But having just read Maximum Carnage again the other day,I still have fresh memories of his slaughtering of innocents.So my pity levels are low right now

Anyway Kasady,Octavius and Osborn having rough childhoods does not excuse what they became.

 

[Herr Logan]

Explain the basis of this rather bold statement feral one.

Well... see, Marvel Comics used to be a great publishing company with great character, and then some years ago they became a $hitty publishing company with bastardized characters. Everything they print now is likely to be massively flawed, and the revisionist trend they're so keen on makes it more than likely that they'll retcon whatever backstory was already given for a spotlighted villain and/or make up a tasteless and mediocre one.

Remember my long-winded explanation for why Dr. Octopus didn't need to have become "insane" after his accident to become a supervillain and that his "brain damage" didn't need to be severe for him to become violent? Well, even though "Year One" proved that Octavius was screwed up beyond repair long before the accident, it went completely overboard with the creepiness factor and apocalyptic imagery. It made it seem like he was born to destroy everything instead of merely born with a genetic predisposition toward personality disorders and physical traits that made him a target in the schoolyard. That's trying far too hard and ignoring the reality of both real-life criminology and the truth of Doc Ock's history prior to this recent rash of revisionist storytelling. Worst of all, it made Octavius look younger than Peter Parker. That last part was inexcusable. The artwork in general sucked, too.

Wow,I almost feel sorry for Kasady.But having just read Maximum Carnage again the other day,I still have fresh memories of his slaughtering of innocents.So my pity levels are low right now

Anyway Kasady,Octavius and Osborn having rough childhoods does not excuse what they became.

The dialogue in 'Maximum Carnage' was atrocious, especially when Spider-Man was defending Carnage in the face of a rampaging Venom and said "in some ways, he's the most innocent of us all."

I forget whether I've discussed criminal justice ethics with you or not, but basically I've come to believe that in many cases of violent offenders, there's absolutely no point in blaming them except to exercise one's own (or the community's) emotions, which is appropriate within reason. Now, when I say "blaming," I'm not saying there's no point in accusing, investigating and convicting; I'm talking about the moral judgement associated with blaming. When a person is not socialized in such a way that they will "live and let live" or follow the "Golden Rule" or whatever you want to call it, then the practical thing to do is to treat them like a dangerous animal without identifying with them on a human level. In other words, it doesn't matter how the animal got the way it did, whether it be abuse or rabies or whathaveyou-- the point is that it's dangerous and needs to be put down for the sake of the community.

Yeah, I feel all kinds of sorry for both little Otto Octavius and little Cletus Cassidy. I still wouldn't hesitate to plant some "lead seeds" in their brain pans if I had a clear shot (and knew how to fire a gun properly). It's like Dr. Octopus has said on more than one occasion, he's got all the chances in the world again Spider-Man, since Spidey won't kill, but Octavius only has to definitively win once.

If Spider-Man had his priorities straight, Ock and Carnage would have died years ago along with the rest of his greatest villains. That would also possibly kill the franchise as well, but that might have been for the best, because, as I said before: Marvel is a $hitty publisher now.

This rant was brought to you in part by: the pressures of school, the retail industry and injustice everywhere.

 

[The Joker]

Remember my long-winded explanation for why Dr. Octopus didn't need to have become "insane" after his accident to become a supervillain and that his "brain damage" didn't need to be severe for him to become violent? Well, even though "Year One" proved that Octavius was screwed up beyond repair long before the accident, it went completely overboard with the creepiness factor and made Octavius look younger than Peter Parker. That last part was inexcusable. The artwork in general sucked, too.

I agree for the most part there.Especially regarding Octavius' age.He should be at least 20 years older than Peter Parker.At the very least.But they both looked like young men in it.

That aside,when Octavius and Peter bumped into eachother at the radiation demonstration at Peter's college,and Octavius and his crew being the ones setting it up the experiment where the radioactive spider comes from,was ridiculous.That annoyed me the most.Octavius had NOTHING to do with the radiation experiment that created Spider-Man.

Also the first time Peter Parker lays eyes on Octavius is when they first face off as Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus.That's not even up for debate.That rule can be broken in the cartoons or movies,but not in the comics.Respect the continuity dammit!!!!

Regading the creepiness factor,I liked it.Ock imagining everyone he hates,New York city etc being destroyed in a nuclear blast,well that worked for me.Because in ASM#3 Ock tried to drown the city in radiation by raiding U.S. Atomic Research.His former place of employment.

The dialogue in 'Maximum Carnage' was atrocious, especially when Spider-Man was defending Carnage in the face of a rampaging Venom and said "in some ways, he's the most innocent of us all."

I forget whether I've discussed criminal justice ethics with you or not, but basically I've come to believe that in many cases of violent offenders, there's absolutely no point in blaming them except to exercise one's own emotions, which is appropriate within reason. Now, when I say "blaming," I'm not saying there's no point in accusing, investigating and convicting; I'm talking about the moral judgement associated with blaming. When a person is not socialized in such a way that they will "live and let live" or follow the "Golden Rule" or whatever you want to call it, then the practical thing to do is to treat them like a dangerous animal without identifying with them on a human level. In other words, it doesn't matter how the animal got the way it did, whether it be abuse or rabies or whathaveyou-- the point is that it's dangerous and needs to be put down for the sake of the community.

Yeah, I feel all kinds of sorry for both little Otto Octavius and little Cletus Cassidy. I still wouldn't hesitate to plant some "lead seeds" in their brain pans if I had a clear shot (and knew how to fire a gun properly). It's like Dr. Octopus has said on more than one occasion, he's got all the chances in the world again Spider-Man, since Spidey won't kill, but Octavius only has to definitively win once.

If Spider-Man had his priorities straight, Ock and Carnage would have died years ago along with the rest of his greatest villains. That would also possibly kill the franchise as well, but that might have been for the best, because, as I said before: Marvel is a $hitty publisher now.

This rant was brought to you in part by: the pressures of school, the retail industry and injustice everywhere.

Funny you mention this,because we were discussing this yesterday in 'The Other' thread in the comics forum.

Dragon mentioned that he had no problem with Peter Parker killing.As long as it's the last resort.Meaning if,say for example,he's facing an opponent who he knows will kill innocent people again,and the ONLY way to stop him is to kill him.

Now if you remember in Maximum Carnage,when Cloak,Venom and even Black Cat were trying to convince Spider-Man that the only way to stop Kassidy was to kill him.Spider-Man refused at first,but then he gave in and Firestar started blasting Carnage.As Carnage was howling in pain,Spider-Man realised he couldn't do it,and told FireStar to stop.

Like I said,we may well pity the harsh backgrounds the villains endured.I know I sure pitied little Otto.But that does no way justify becoming a murderer and a criminal.

Does Ock,Carnage and Co deserve death?? Of course.But you see Peter always viewed killing as sinking to the very level of the evil he's trying to stop.Even if this evil is threatening many innocents.

Is Peter an idiot??? Or is he right?? Your thoughts??

 

[Herr Logan]

I agree for the most part there.Especially regarding Octavius' age.He should be at least 20 years older than Peter Parker.At the very least.But they both looked like young men in it.

That aside,when Octavius and Peter bumped into eachother at the radiation demonstration at Peter's college,and Octavius and his crew being the ones setting it up the experiment where the radioactive spider comes from,was ridiculous.That annoyed me the most.Octavius had NOTHING to do with the radiation experiment that created Spider-Man.

Also the first time Peter Parker lays eyes on Octavius is when they first face off as Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus.That's not even up for debate.That rule can be broken in the cartoons or movies,but not in the comics.Respect the continuity dammit!!!!

Regading the creepiness factor,I liked it.Ock imagining everyone he hates,New York city etc being destroyed in a nuclear blast,well that worked for me.Because in ASM#3 Ock tried to drown the city in radiation by raiding U.S. Atomic Research.His former place of employment.

I absolutely agree with you on it being wrong to mess with comic book origins. There are instances where things can be improved or there might be a necessity in doing so. This is not one of those cases. Doc Ock's actually villain origin (how he got his powers) was not that exciting, isn't any more exciting now, and doesn't need to be.

I'd approve of changing it in the way that I described having it in movies in my thread (which seems to be in a coma, currently). I'd use the harness design from 'Spider-Man 2,' keeping the concept of artificial intelligence guiding the arms but avoiding the "machine controlling the man" nonsense altogether. As I wrote at length, the harness would have a compact CPU attached to the spinal interface and the entire thing would be as close to indestructable as is within Octavius' means. If there's an "inhibitor chip" that keeps the A.I. from stealing Otto's brain, it's within the CPU with every level of safeguard there is. If there's one thing Octavius values, it's his brain, and I'm talking about the real Octavius, not the cuddly teddybear they had Alfred Molina play in the movie. He values his mind, so he protects it properly. No chips dangling out in the open where any kind impact or shock could damage it, period.
That's pretty much the extent to which I'd change anything, and that's not a character trait change at all, because if the true Dr. Octopus had that kind of technology at his disposal, that's what he'd do with it: protect his brain and make his machine as tough and versatile as possible.

Funny you mention this,because we were discussing this yesterday in 'The Other' thread in the comics forum.

Dragon mentioned that he had no problem with Peter Parker killing.As long as it's the last resort.Meaning if,say for example,he's facing an opponent who he knows will kill innocent people again,and the ONLY way to stop him is to kill him.

Now if you remember in Maximum Carnage,when Cloak,Venom and even Black Cat were trying to convince Spider-Man that the only way to stop Kassidy was to kill him.Spider-Man refused at first,but then he gave in and Firestar started blasting Carnage.As Carnage was howling in pain,Spider-Man realised he couldn't do it,and told FireStar to stop.

Like I said,we may well pity the harsh backgrounds the villains endured.I know I sure pitied little Otto.But that does no way justify becoming a murderer and a criminal.

Does Ock,Carnage and Co deserve death?? Of course.But you see Peter always viewed killing as sinking to the very level of the evil he's trying to stop.Even if this evil is threatening many innocents.

Is Peter an idiot??? Or is he right?? Your thoughts??

My thoughts are these:
1) Peter Parker is an idiot not to kill his worst enemies.
2) Peter Parker should never kill.

Paradoxical? No more than anything else in superhero fiction. If I was making my own characters (which I have), then it's fine for me to suggest or put in writing that they kill dangerous criminals, but it's never okay to change fundamental character traits and cross lines that were clearly laid out by the creators. Spider-Man doesn't kill, just like several other superheroes are never supposed to kill. For one thing, the naivete and lack of insight shared by Spider-Man, most of the X-Men, Daredevil, Superman, Batman, etc. keep the villains available for future storytelling. In fiction, the no-kill rule is practical and beneficial.

You could play it the same way they do with Spider-Man, where he absolutely refuses to kill (although at various points in Spider-Man history, more people seem to die from one cause or another than in Punisher comics), or they can do it like with Wolverine, where he's willing to kill in many cases but can't pull it off for whatever reason. Either way, good villains should be preserved and so should the essential values of a given character. Obviously it would be ridiculous if Spider-Man let himself be killed rather than resort to killing an enemy, but it's the job of the writer to keep that scenario from happening. That type of hero finds another way, period.

I remember the rationale given for the Batman killing in the Tim Burton movies, on the DVD special features; something along the lines of "times are such that he can't just drop them at the police station in a net." Oh really? Why not? Are the people who hold the screenwriters' leashes so dead set against keeping the Batman's methods non-lethal that they need to make the writers force a scenario where the Batman needs to kill or really, really wants to kill? Where is the lack of creative power here? What psychological dynamic is in play where the people making a movie or writing a story can't simply design the scenario so that there's another way to survive and thwart the bad guy? Feh... the idiocy of some people...

Anyway, I hope I've made some sense here regarding my stance on Spider-Man's policies on killing. For the sake of artistic integrity, he should never have to kill, regardless of how "realistic" it is or isn't. Trust me, I spend plenty of time arguing that killing is the proper course of action with regard to real life villains. And it's not a matter of what they "deserve." It's a matter of what the rest of society deserves and what can be done to accomodate it. I believe that society at large should be socialized (i.e. conditioned) to coexist as peacefully as possible, with a greater and more accurate awareness of the totality of human nature than exists today. The only thing that ever keeps me from saying "support the death penalty, you ignorant bastards!" is the incompetence and inherent failure of the criminal justice system. If you can't be sure of guilt, then you shouldn't kill the suspect. In fiction, however, it's different. The Batman pretty much always knows when someone is guilty eventually, because he does his research, has almost perfect instincts and tends to beat the truth out of people. That's a scenario where killing would be morally acceptable to me, because he'd know the truth, realize the danger the suspect poses to society, and definitely solves that problem. I would not be okay with the Batman himself killing, though, for reasons I've explained already. Spider-Man isn't nearly that good of a detective, but he tends to actually witness a lot of his enemies harming others, and his spider-sense alerts him to things that the police wouldn't intuitively know were going to happen or were happening. Spider-Man has a greater capacity for accurately determining guilt in a suspect, so he's another character that I'd criticize for not killing a proven threat if he was real. Since he isn't real, I criticize anyone who would suggest that he start killing.

 

[Symbiotica]

That aside,when Octavius and Peter bumped into eachother at the radiation demonstration at Peter's college,and Octavius and his crew being the ones setting it up the experiment where the radioactive spider comes from,was ridiculous.That annoyed me the most.Octavius had NOTHING to do with the radiation experiment that created Spider-Man.

That was rather jarring, although the panel where they bump into each other and both pairs of glasses go flying was rather funny.

Decades are supposed to separate these two. They're not educational cohorts.

Of course it would make more sense for Spidey to kill his villains, but if he did what would we have to look at? I daresay many of these villains have almost as many fans as Spidey does, not to mention Marvel's kill-happy enough even without Spidey doing the honors. Every time you turn around, someone else is dying. Then in five minutes they are back. They're about to kill Peter too. In the next issue he will be back.

No more killing villains, even crappy ones like Shrike. [Still mad about Shrike.]What happened to Sauron in Nude Avengers was stupid, too. I see NO SENSE in blowing someone's head off only to reanimate them in the very next issue. It's ridiculous. And the more history a villain has, the less inclined they shound be to kill him.

 

[The Joker]

That was rather jarring, although the panel where they bump into each other and both pairs of glasses go flying was rather funny.

Well the point of that scene was that Wells was trying to show the parallel between Peter and Octavius.How they are so similar,except one turned to the dark side and let his anger and rage consume him.
While Peter used his powers for good.He used his anger over Uncle Ben's death for good,by living by the immortal statement that with great power comes great responsibility

I salute Wells for showing that parallel.He just could have found another way to do it,without disrespecting continuity.
Some people like to think Green Goblin is Peter's polar opposite.When it is in fact Otto Octavius,who is the perfect example of what a bullied,angry,and highly intelligent geek is like when given an awesome power,and uses it for his own selfish ways.

If Peter Parker is the geek turned superhero,then Otto Octavius is the geek turned super villain.

Now I would like to wish my good friend Venom_uk a very happy birthday.For today he has turned 21.Congratulations,you are now a man

 

[Electro UK]

*ponders why message isn't in clubhouse but shrugs it off* HAPPY BIRTHDAY Venom_uk!

 

[Silver Sable]

Happy Birthday to you again even though I PMed you all ready lol

 

[Venom_uk]

*looks at pic of Molina with funny hat & balloon*

Hmmm...that looks familer.

Anyway, a BIG thank you to anyone & everyone who wished my a happy b'day (yes, all 3 of you ). Although personally I don't see what the big fuss about being 21 is. I could legally do everything at 18 anyway. hehehe

Oh, although saying that, I can now legally get wasted in the US. Whey hey! up:

 

[Nicklogic]

happy bday

 

[Silver S]

... If there's one thing Octavius values, it's his brain, and I'm talking about the real Octavius, not the cuddly teddybear they had Alfred Molina play in the movie.

Out of your entire intellectual post, this is the line I had to pick out and laugh at, because it's true. (Speaking of the giant cuddly teddy bear, I hope he shows up in the preview clips Entertainment Tonight will be showing tomorrow night, 7:30 Eastern for The DaVinci Code, should anyone be interested in following up on Molina...) Such a shame Raimi had to warp Ock's character to such unrecognizable terms. But it's not like he's the only one to blame. Sym brings up a good point that we all already know and shake our heads at - no one at Marvel bats a eye at killing off any given member of any universe at any time, knowing they can bring him back in the very next arc. Lends real credibility to these writers and the so called House of Ideas. I don't follow DC (although I admit I've not really been following what's been going on in Marvel context either, I count on the bickering on the boards to keep me updated) so I don't know how bad/good a job they're doing, but I imagine the competition for shock value is growing between the two giants of the industry.

The motto that Marvel likes to stomp all over before pissing on - "Don't fix it if it ain't broken."

And venom_uk, live it up while you can. Cheers!