Doctor Who - "Am I a good thread?"

[Matt]

Just watched Smith's last episode again. His speech, his moment with Amy, all the call backs. Kills me. I still remember the first time I watched it. I thought I get through it without the waterworks, and then he saw little Amelia.

I love you 11. My raggedy man. My Doctor.

I've been rewatching also, in fact, I just finished Power of Three last night. Rewatching that season, knowing how the Ponds depart...it makes it feel all the less natural. I personally hated Rory and Amelia's departure at the time, and wasn't quite sure why, now I am.

The season doesn't build up to the Ponds getting trapped in the 1920s and being forcefully separated from the Doctor. In fact, it builds up to the opposite: the Doctor coming and going from their life until they outgrow him. In fact, there is one exchange in particular from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship:

Amy: I think you're weaning us off you.

The Doctor: I'm not, I promise. Really promise. The others, they're not you. But you and Rory, you have lives—each other. It was what we agreed.

Amy: I know. I just worry there'll come a time when you never turn up. That something will have happened to you and I'll still be waiting, never knowing.

The Doctor: No. Come on, Pond. You'll be there 'til the end of me.

Amy: Or vice versa.

At that point the Doctor gives her a sad and reflective look, kind of like he knows the inevitable is coming and it is the one thing he cannot escape or protect her from: his companion's natural life cycle.

These themes run throughout Series 7. Asylum of the Dalek is basically about the Ponds' lives having evolved as they face the real world without the Doctor and real world problems (inability to conceive resulting in divorce). There are a few lines that echo it in A Town Called Mercy. And then of course, the scene that you posted, Darth (which in my opinion is the best scene of Series 7). Included in all of this is the fact that the Ponds are aging throughout Series 7 (Power of Three talks about the Doctor popping in and out of their lives for ten years...Angels Take Manhattan shows visible aging from Amelia, as well as her need for glasses as she ages, etc).

Then we hit Angels Take Manhattan and we get the ending we got. It doesn't feel like a natural ending for the story. A natural ending would've been a montage of the Ponds traveling with the Doctor on and off throughout their lives, building up to a Peter Pan/Wendy type of ending, where the Ponds simply get too old for the Doctor and eventually die natural deaths. It would've been both beautiful and heartbreaking to see him say goodbye to them at Amy's funeral.

Plus, it would've made the Doctor's self-imposed Exile in The Snowmen a bit more poignant (rather than sulking over Amy and Rory having a perfectly happy life in the 1920s and on, it would have been the Doctor reflecting on the fact that it is his destiny to have everyone he loves outgrow him and eventually leave him).

Furthermore, it would've been a lot more fitting with Time of the Doctor, which features the Doctor finding something worth protecting, so he stops running and eventually ages and dies (of course, he regenerates but 11 dies anyway). The two would've been beautifully paralleled.

I just feel like the ending we got was the producers overthinking it and wanting the most grandiose exit possible, when a simpler one would've been much more fitting to the story of the Ponds (and ultimately a more fitting part of the Eleventh Doctor's story).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I've been rewatching also, in fact, I just finished Power of Three last night. Rewatching that season, knowing how the Ponds depart...it makes it feel all the less natural. I personally hated Rory and Amelia's departure at the time, and wasn't quite sure why, now I am.

The season doesn't build up to the Ponds getting trapped in the 1920s and being forcefully separated from the Doctor. In fact, it builds up to the opposite: the Doctor coming and going from their life until they outgrow him. In fact, there is one exchange in particular from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship:



At that point the Doctor gives her a sad and reflective look, kind of like he knows the inevitable is coming and it is the one thing he cannot escape or protect her from: his companion's natural life cycle.

These themes run throughout Series 7. Asylum of the Dalek is basically about the Ponds' lives having evolved as they face the real world without the Doctor and real world problems (inability to conceive resulting in divorce). There are a few lines that echo it in A Town Called Mercy. And then of course, the scene that you posted, Darth (which in my opinion is the best scene of Series 7). Included in all of this is the fact that the Ponds are aging throughout Series 7 (Power of Three talks about the Doctor popping in and out of their lives for ten years...Angels Take Manhattan shows visible aging from Amelia, as well as her need for glasses as she ages, etc).

Then we hit Angels Take Manhattan and we get the ending we got. It doesn't feel like a natural ending for the story. A natural ending would've been a montage of the Ponds traveling with the Doctor on and off throughout their lives, building up to a Peter Pan/Wendy type of ending, where the Ponds simply get too old for the Doctor and eventually die natural deaths. It would've been both beautiful and heartbreaking to see him say goodbye to them at Amy's funeral.

Plus, it would've made the Doctor's self-imposed Exile in The Snowmen a bit more poignant (rather than sulking over Amy and Rory having a perfectly happy life in the 1920s and on, it would have been the Doctor reflecting on the fact that it is his destiny to have everyone he loves outgrow him and eventually leave him).

Furthermore, it would've been a lot more fitting with Time of the Doctor, which features the Doctor finding something worth protecting, so he stops running and eventually ages and dies (of course, he regenerates but 11 dies anyway). The two would've been beautifully paralleled.

I just feel like the ending we got was the producers overthinking it and wanting the most grandiose exit possible, when a simpler one would've been much more fitting to the story of the Ponds (and ultimately a more fitting part of the Eleventh Doctor's story).

While I like The Angles Take Manhattan as it own thing, I completely agree with your overall assessment Matt. While Amy and Rory do end up living a full life, it isn't quite the same, because the Doctor doesn't get to see it. 11 and Amy were a true partnership, nothing quite like what NuWho, or possibly all of Who has seen. A brother and sister, who even with their significant others (River and Rory), whose relationship could never be denied. I know why they wanted to tie them up, make it "impossible" as the 11 would continue to go back and see his Amelia Pond. But that was unnecessary fore a few reason.

As you pointed out, they had all the pieces in place, and all the parallels.

1. As you pointed out there is the Ponds aging, and how while they love their adventures with him, they also have their own lives separate from him. This is exactly what happens to 11 in "The Time of the Doctor". He stops running, and lives a real life apart from his usual thing of popping in and out of companions lives, avoiding the issue.

2. 11 lived a lot of years. A millennium actually. In his finale, he settles down and lives a few full lives in one episode. If we saw the same for Amy and Rory, it would have matched up, well perfectly. A mirror, especially when you consider 11's condition right before his regeneration. The visible signs of aging on the Doctor.

3. 11 has an emphasis on his dislike of "endings" and goodbyes, and you see that reflected in his relationship with Amy, Clara and River. Watching Amy wither away in the end would have been more then enough for 11 to avoid her and go into his self-imposed exile.

4. The Doctor knows he is on his last life, so he knows his next death is his last. We actually see him age. Could of been a clever way to deal with his pending mortality.

I am a big fan of Moffat, but what I find strange about their finale, is he did go for Timey Wimey, as opposed to the more beautiful, more appropriate ending for the duo. Especially considering how it was all set up. I feel like the episode should have happened, but the Doctor should have truly saved them, and then of course the more natural ending.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I've been rewatching also, in fact, I just finished Power of Three last night. Rewatching that season, knowing how the Ponds depart...it makes it feel all the less natural. I personally hated Rory and Amelia's departure at the time, and wasn't quite sure why, now I am.

The season doesn't build up to the Ponds getting trapped in the 1920s and being forcefully separated from the Doctor. In fact, it builds up to the opposite: the Doctor coming and going from their life until they outgrow him. In fact, there is one exchange in particular from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship:



At that point the Doctor gives her a sad and reflective look, kind of like he knows the inevitable is coming and it is the one thing he cannot escape or protect her from: his companion's natural life cycle.

These themes run throughout Series 7. Asylum of the Dalek is basically about the Ponds' lives having evolved as they face the real world without the Doctor and real world problems (inability to conceive resulting in divorce). There are a few lines that echo it in A Town Called Mercy. And then of course, the scene that you posted, Darth (which in my opinion is the best scene of Series 7). Included in all of this is the fact that the Ponds are aging throughout Series 7 (Power of Three talks about the Doctor popping in and out of their lives for ten years...Angels Take Manhattan shows visible aging from Amelia, as well as her need for glasses as she ages, etc).

Then we hit Angels Take Manhattan and we get the ending we got. It doesn't feel like a natural ending for the story. A natural ending would've been a montage of the Ponds traveling with the Doctor on and off throughout their lives, building up to a Peter Pan/Wendy type of ending, where the Ponds simply get too old for the Doctor and eventually die natural deaths. It would've been both beautiful and heartbreaking to see him say goodbye to them at Amy's funeral.

Plus, it would've made the Doctor's self-imposed Exile in The Snowmen a bit more poignant (rather than sulking over Amy and Rory having a perfectly happy life in the 1920s and on, it would have been the Doctor reflecting on the fact that it is his destiny to have everyone he loves outgrow him and eventually leave him).

Furthermore, it would've been a lot more fitting with Time of the Doctor, which features the Doctor finding something worth protecting, so he stops running and eventually ages and dies (of course, he regenerates but 11 dies anyway). The two would've been beautifully paralleled.

I just feel like the ending we got was the producers overthinking it and wanting the most grandiose exit possible, when a simpler one would've been much more fitting to the story of the Ponds (and ultimately a more fitting part of the Eleventh Doctor's story).

Amy and Rory shouldn't have been in the graveyard when everyone woke up. It was too "End of Time" with them surviving an impossible situation and then just "boop! Nevermind!"

I also didn't like that when Rory was willing to die, the Doctor was only bothered about Amy, then when Rory did die, the Doctor was, again, only bothered about Amy. Talk about dick move.

As for the Doctor's regeneration, I wouldn't have been bothered if that was a big bombastic, grandiose occasion. It was a genuine event, it was a part of the 50th anniversary specials, the 800th episode and the final Doctor of the regeneration cycle.

But it's still just like Moffat didn't know what to do, so he tried to have his cake and eat it too, by giving the Doctor a huge regeneration, but then another smaller scene to be more heartfelt.

 

[Manic]

"This is my friend, Rory." "Boyfriend." "Sort of boyfriend." (Taking place after the years of yearning and Amy running after him as seen in Let's Kill Hitler).

Running away on her wedding night.

Trying to get the Doctor D.

Surprised to see herself with Rory in the future.

"You may certainly kiss the bride".

Not telling Rory she is pregnant.


Rory wasn't wrong when he said he loved her more than she loved him. He sat awake for 2, 000 years at her side, and she gets all uppity after 30 years, and kicks him out too. Moffat put it in because people thought it was true, he just didn't come up with a great resolution.

It wasn't that Rory loved Amy more than she loved him. It's that Amy was someone who had a hard time admitting her feelings and making personal connections with people. She grew up biting her psychiatrists and getting into constant trouble at school, and her only friends were the boy who loved her and her daughter pulling a Marty McFly to make sure her parents ended up together. She lost her parents in an incident she doesn't remember, and the most fantastic person she ever met took 12 (then another 2) years to come back into her life. She had abandonment issues, and wasn't capable of telling her loved ones that she loved them.

That's why she ran away from her own wedding and was baffled to see herself with Rory in 10 years. I think, deep down, she was afraid he'd leave her like everyone else does. That's why she couldn't give herself over to him as completely as he did to her.

But by the time they got married, she was fine. Their relationship couldn't be better. I think she didn't tell Rory she was pregnant because she was worried about what affect traveling with the Doctor would have on the baby-- hence why she told the Doctor first, and worried that it might have a "time-head" or something. Then they all split up for a few months to investigate the Silence, and by the time they got back together, she wasn't pregnant anymore (as far as she knew).

As for her having a hard time waiting 30 years--
By this point, Amy had finally opened up to Rory completely, and she had accepted that he would never abandon her. Then she got lost in a medical facility for 30 years, and her worst fear came true-- Rory had abandoned her. She didn't know the time difference would cause him to arrive decades later. She thought she'd been left behind.
This is totally different from Rory waiting by his Sleeping Beauty's side for 2,000 years, waiting for the day she wakes up.

Rory may have been voicing the audience's thoughts when he said he loved her more than she loved hi, but he was way off base. And that's why Amy slapped the crap out of him for saying it.


As annoying as it may be that Moffat constantly shoehorns relationship stuff into a show about a near-libidoless alien, the man knows how to write the hell out of a complex relationship. He wrote a sitcom for 4 seasons that was about nothing else.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Let's Kill Hitler showed that Amy was a responsible child at school, constantly looking after Mels- like a parent. She had at least three friends: Amy, Rory, Jeff (which is more than we can say about other companions) and she never "lost" her parents, you can't lose something you never had, they never existed, they were unwritten from time.

As for Amy not confronting her feelings, she seemed okay to talk about them with Vincent Van Gogh about being sad (though not knowing why).

Bringing up The Girl Who Waited again though, it seems utterly stupid given the context of The Big Bang and A Good Man Goes To War, she tells Melody about her father who would never give up for them no matter how long it took, citing his 2, 000 year wait. But just gives up hope after 0.015% of the time he has given in just one instance.

Moffat can write good relationships, I just don't think Amy/Rory is one of them. Obviously it's intended that Amy loves Rory as much (the macarena scene etc). But it's more often than not shown that it's supposed to look like Rory is lucky to get Amy. If you have to outright say something because people think the opposite, you haven't told your story as well as possible, golden rule is "show, don't tell" after all.

 

[Manic]

Amy told the Doctor to kill her when Rory died in "Cold Blood." She felt so guilty about not being able to give him any more children that she told him to leave so he'd find someone who could-- basically putting his desire for children above herself. She refused to stop performing CPR on him until he finally got up. House knew that the worst possible way to torture her was to show Rory's corpse waiting for her. She would rather jump off a roof with him than live without him.

If you can't see how much she loved him, you're ignoring an awful lot. The possibility that Amy might not really love Rory was resolved in series 5, and the possibility that she might love the Doctor more was thrown out the window in series 6.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The thing is-- I'm obviously not alone, otherwise it wouldn't need to have just been said. Clearly enough people thought it in the general audience over two years that the Muffler had to just say, I give up. Like I said, it's clearly intended, I even gave an example. I felt a lot of it was sort of just- hollow.

Plus two of those examples come after the- "Hey! This is what I was trying to do."

Also, speculation now is that Missy

Spoiler

is the Doctor (or maybe a future regeneration of the Valeyard?)

.

 

[Gold Samurai]

Capaldi's BIG THANK YOU to all the fans around the world


[YT]l4WBIREx02w[/YT]

 

[Jason Kane]

The thing is-- I'm obviously not alone, otherwise it wouldn't need to have just been said. Clearly enough people thought it in the general audience over two years that the Muffler had to just say, I give up. Like I said, it's clearly intended, I even gave an example. I felt a lot of it was sort of just- hollow.

Plus two of those examples come after the- "Hey! This is what I was trying to do."

Also, speculation now is that Missy

Spoiler

is the Doctor (or maybe a future regeneration of the Valeyard?)

.

Ha!. Muffler

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Let's Kill Hitler showed that Amy was a responsible child at school, constantly looking after Mels- like a parent. She had at least three friends: Amy, Rory, Jeff (which is more than we can say about other companions) and she never "lost" her parents, you can't lose something you never had, they never existed, they were unwritten from time.

As for Amy not confronting her feelings, she seemed okay to talk about them with Vincent Van Gogh about being sad (though not knowing why).

Bringing up The Girl Who Waited again though, it seems utterly stupid given the context of The Big Bang and A Good Man Goes To War, she tells Melody about her father who would never give up for them no matter how long it took, citing his 2, 000 year wait. But just gives up hope after 0.015% of the time he has given in just one instance.

Moffat can write good relationships, I just don't think Amy/Rory is one of them. Obviously it's intended that Amy loves Rory as much (the macarena scene etc). But it's more often than not shown that it's supposed to look like Rory is lucky to get Amy. If you have to outright say something because people think the opposite, you haven't told your story as well as possible, golden rule is "show, don't tell" after all.

A few things.

1. That was after The Doctor rebooted the universe. Amy in fact grew up with her parents in that version. Amy basically takes the role of Jake Chambers from the Dark Tower. She has two concurrent lives, sets of events living in her head. Thus starting with "The Big Bang", Amy has two separate timelines in her head up to that point.

2. Amy did in fact have feelings of loss and such with her parents, because unlike everyone other then the Doctor and River, she lived "outside" of the crack do to growing up with the crack in her bedroom wall and time traveling with the Doctor. As you pointed out, she talks about this with Vincent. And yet you simply choose to ignore it. Why?

The Doctor: Try and remember your family and they'll be there.

Amy: How can I remember them if they never existed!?

The Doctor: Because you're special. That crack in your wall, all that time. The universe pouring into your head. You brought Rory back, you can bring them back, too. You just remember, and they'll be there.

Amy: You won't.

The Doctor: You'll have your family back. You won't need your imaginary friend anymore.

She was missing things she didn't understand she was missing. It is very sad unconscious level of pain. Like babies who are abused and show signs later in life. They don't know why, they just do. It is also why she is eventually able to recognize Rory and bring back the Doctor.

3. That scene, moment in "The Big Bang" also emphasis Amy's relationship with the Doctor. Which is why it is so important to her as she grows up, and why up until "The Big Bang" more important then any other for her. Which is why when she is given the chance to leave with him, she does so. He is her anchor, her proof. It is the Doctor who is her road back to her family, to her intended life. The Doctor is her road to being whole again. And thus the Doctor is her road to being able to love Rory the way she wants too.

4. Amy loves Rory, but Amy loves differently. She is rough around the edges. She is tough, guarded, and it isn't her fault. But she loves her man. Also, Amy takes on more traditional male role in their relationship, while Rory takes a more traditionally female one. Amy most definitely wears the pants, hence the why they are the Ponds. This seems to rub some people the wrong way, though I am not sure why.

The thing is-- I'm obviously not alone, otherwise it wouldn't need to have just been said. Clearly enough people thought it in the general audience over two years that the Muffler had to just say, I give up. Like I said, it's clearly intended, I even gave an example. I felt a lot of it was sort of just- hollow.

Plus two of those examples come after the- "Hey! This is what I was trying to do."

Also, speculation now is that Missy

Spoiler

is the Doctor (or maybe a future regeneration of the Valeyard?)

.

Oh yes, because the Who fanbase is a bunch of rational people, who don't judge people on being too attractive and make up the most random reasons to dislike a character because it is their way or the highway. As someone who spent years on Who, Batman and Star Wars boards, all I can do is shake my head.

These are the same people that bring up how she "treats" Rory before his first "death", completely ignoring her character and her arc. They ignore the overarching arc of season 5 and the entire point of "The Big Bang". They use, "she ran away from her wedding" as a legitimate argument. She's "mean" and "rude" to him. She insults him and is too sarcastic to him. Come on now.

I have watched the 2.5 series featuring Amy probably a dozen times now. Ripped it apart and put it back together. Amy's arc is well defined and is very consistent in terms of her character. Amy is an amazing woman and she loves her Rory, deeply. There is plenty of examples to counter any suggestion otherwise.

No one needs to like Amy of course, but at least dislike her for something she actually did.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

and the countdown grows even shorter till the new Doctor lands...

can't wait...

 

[TheComicbookKid]

They wanted to go out on top and not have the characters overstay their welcome. But this is also why they shouldn't have "killed/sealed" them off. Should've had Clara join them and be a 3 people traveling with the Doctor and have Amy/Rory take time off then bring them back for the end and have them leave when he regenerates.

I think 11 and Amy are more tied to each other than any other Doctor companion because of the little Amelia thing.

The larger point of NuWho seems to be that putting an end to a Doctor/companion relationship means ending it permanently. Cause the Doctor should technically always be able to go back and see his companions( but actors move on). The Brigadier dies in 2012? So what. Go back to 1999 and see him.

So we have Donna being sealed off with the threat of exploding her brain.
Rose was sealed off in another universe(briefly) and Amy is time locked in 1920.
Martha, who wasn't a fan favorite, is the only NuWho companion to escape this and no one is asking where she is anyways.

I'm assuming Clara will be locked off as a result of her "Impossible Girl" sacrifice.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Thats why you just have a villain go and kidnap them from that locked time and then have them rejoin The Doctor lol.

I don't think Clara will be locked off somehow since her relationship with 12 may not be as close as it could've become with 11.

But they really should do something that unlocks all these locks because they are kinds of ridiculous.

 

[AnneFan]

I really cannot wait to watch Deep Breath, so excited now.

 

[Matt]

Thats why you just have a villain go and kidnap them from that locked time and then have them rejoin The Doctor lol.

I don't think Clara will be locked off somehow since her relationship with 12 may not be as close as it could've become with 11.

But they really should do something that unlocks all these locks because they are kinds of ridiculous.

The Ponds being locked away is especially ridiculous. Here's an idea, the Doctor travels to New Jersey, parks the TARDIS, gets in a cab, drives over the bridge, picks up Amy and Rory, drives back to the TARDIS, they travel 50 years into the future, throw up a couple of tomb stones and BOOM! Paradox averted and the TARDIS does not break time by going back to New York.

 

[Pink Ranger]

The Ponds being locked away is especially ridiculous. Here's an idea, the Doctor travels to New Jersey, parks the TARDIS, gets in a cab, drives over the bridge, picks up Amy and Rory, drives back to the TARDIS, they travel 50 years into the future, throw up a couple of tomb stones and BOOM! Paradox averted and the TARDIS does not break time by going back to New York.

No way. I mean ewww, New Jersey ...




t:

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

I really cannot wait to watch Deep Breath, so excited now.

now now... just take a... deep breath...

 

[TheNextNolan22]

 

[Jason Kane]

4th gets a 2nd round with Cybermen....and he (plus Leela and K9) isn't alone:

Tom Baker will battle the Cybermen in a new audio story from Big Finish in 2015. The Fourth Doctor previously had only one encounter with his arch-enemies on television in 1975’s Revenge of the Cybermen.

The new story will also be the first meeting of Leela (Louise Jameson) and K9 (John Leeson) with the implacable silver giants.

The stage will be set in the June release The Fate of Krelos, in which the TARDIS lands on an alien world facing its most dangerous time. Michael Cochrane (Black Orchid/Ghost Light) guest stars as Geralk, while Veronica Roberts (Tenko) is Relly.

The Doctor’s past will then catch up with him in Return to Telos, which features the Cybermen’s adopted home world, and includes the return of [BLACKOUT]Frazer Hines as Jamie[/BLACKOUT], while Bernard Holley reprises his role as Peter Hayden from Tomb of the Cybermen.

“I don’t want to give away too many secrets,” says writer and director Nicholas Briggs, “but I can reveal it features the Tomb-era Cybermen, with those wonderful monotone voices. They presented an interesting challenge – I got quite a headache using the electronic larynx. And Peter Hayden is indeed part of the story, even though he died suddenly at the end of Tomb’s first episode! How can that possibly work? You’ll have to wait and see…

“And we have [BLACKOUT]Frazer back as Jamie[/BLACKOUT], in a Fourth Doctor story… the black and white and colour eras of Doctor Who collide on audio in one exciting story.”

The Fate of Krelos and Return to Telos round off the fourth season of The Fourth Doctor Adventures. A fifth season starts in 2016, and sees the return of Lalla Ward as Romana.

http://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/doctor-who-the-fourth-doctor-fights-cybermen-again

 

[Hyde]

Seeing Deep Breath in the cinema tomorrow. Can't wait! t:

 

[Primal Slayer]

Since Clara has been around all the doctors technically, they should do some one off audios of them encountering her.

 

[(SUPERMAN)]

There's a review of Deep Breath on AICN and the reviewer says it's terrible, awful it sucks here's the link mild spoilers if you go to read it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There's a review of Deep Breath on AICN and the reviewer says it's terrible, awful it sucks here's the link mild spoilers if you go to read it.

I started to read that, but I stopped. I am not expecting "The Eleventh Hour". It is after all my favorite Who episode. But I have loved plenty of episodes that others hate. Tomorrow will tell.

 

[Jason Kane]

Since Clara has been around all the doctors technically, they should do some one off audios of them encountering her.

Can we ignore that? While not mentioned since its return (and The Big Bang moreso) the Web of Time can still wash out paradoxial bits

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Can we ignore that? While not mentioned since its return (and The Big Bang moreso) the Web of Time can still wash out paradoxial bits

Why ignore that new fantastic piece of lore?

Though it should be pointed out that the Doctor usually ignored Clara. 11 is the one that noticed, and did so 3 different times.