Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Doctor Octopus]

I see. Agreed then. Marvel villains much better than DCEU ones.

 

[Mjölnir]

Agreed, I am tired of the Ultron argument, especially since you keep ignoring my central point that nothing about him is unique to Whedon's writing.

As for the Joker, I only point that out because we are talking about great villains and, generally, those that are perceived as great villains leave a cultural impact. A problem with Marvel Studios movies and, now, DCEU movies is that they almost uniformly fail to do that. You dismiss my praising the Joker performance by stating you personally did not care for the writing. That is irrelevant, because the point is how the villain is received by pop culture. You may personally think the Joker is overrated, or that the movie is overrated, but that is not the perception of the culture, which is why the Joker is put on a pedestal by critics, fans, and even awards voters... and Marvel villains are not. Pointing that out is not saying you have to agree with me, it is saying, "Why can't Marvel do that?"

... hence the whole point of this thread.

By the way, I totally agree Ultron, or at least his movie, was better received than Apocalypse. But again, tomato, tomato.

I've been agreeing that The Joker is a special villain. The only thing I said was that I don't think he, or any other super villain, matches up with the likes of Lecter, Chigurh, etc. Hardly much criticism. And if we insist on using accomplishments as the bar, Lecter won Best Actor (not supporting) despite having 15 minutes of screen time, against a field of actors/roles that were much stronger than those against Ledger. That would indicate the weight of that performance to someone that puts stock in awards regarding that.

But to go on about the Joker, I can't say that it's a problem to not reach that level. Just as I don't think it's a problem that no super villain reaches Lecter and the rest. A problem is when things are bad and drag the movies down in my view. I'm sure there are people that think that about the MCU, and some might even not think that about the DCEU or Fox, but I don't think that's an issue to that degree, nor does the MCU seem to have issues with producing good movies. There's just room for improvement (although when is there not?).

 

[Mjölnir]

Yeah as I said, and you, let's agree to disagree on all of this as we aren't going to change each other's minds

Indeed. Let's be satisfied with that both movies/villains managed to please at least one of us.

 

[DACrowe]

I think the issue is whenever you make your lead heroes as colourful and funny as the MCU has done the villains effectively have to be the 'straight men' in the movies.

It's not unique in that the Indiana Jones franchise is up there with Star Wars and Bond as the one that's endured and contributed to pop culture through the decades and yet none of it's rogue gallery (Belloq etc) rank amongst the all time iconic cinema bad guys.

Belloq is a pretty memorable villain. But notice that you listed the very colorful Star Wars and Bond.

Darth Vader is hands down one of the great movie villains of all time. Emperor Palpatine is also very memorable. And the Bond movies have had a lot of stinkers for villains, but they also have had some of cinema's best villains of all time too: Goldfinger, Oddjob, Red Grant, Jaws, Ernst Blofeld, 006/Alec Trevelyan, Xenia Onatopp, Silvia. I even have a soft spot for Elliot Carver just because I loved Jonathan Pryce hamming it up in a parody of Rupert Murdoch.

There have been a lot of great villains in those franchises. And the Sam Raimi Spidey movies were just as colorful as Marvel but Dafoe was very good if not for his costume and Molina as Ock were aces. I am not sure that excuse flies for Marvel in the end.

 

[DACrowe]

I've been agreeing that The Joker is a special villain. The only thing I said was that I don't think he, or any other super villain, matches up with the likes of Lecter, Chigurh, etc. Hardly much criticism. And if we insist on using accomplishments as the bar, Lecter won Best Actor (not supporting) despite having 15 minutes of screen time, against a field of actors/roles that were much stronger than those against Ledger. That would indicate the weight of that performance to someone that puts stock in awards regarding that.

But to go on about the Joker, I can't say that it's a problem to not reach that level. Just as I don't think it's a problem that no super villain reaches Lecter and the rest. A problem is when things are bad and drag the movies down in my view. I'm sure there are people that think that about the MCU, and some might even not think that about the DCEU or Fox, but I don't think that's an issue to that degree, nor does the MCU seem to have issues with producing good movies. There's just room for improvement (although when is there not?).

I agree that we do not need villains of that caliber. So we have reached a consensus!

Seriously, yes Marvel does not need a Lecter or even a Ledger Joker (though it would be nice). I do think think they can strive for better in this department though, as Marvel Television proves. With that said, you are right, their problems are far less than DCEU or even Fox (though I liked Deadpool plenty this year).

The problem Marvel has is noticeable, but it is far smaller than what is ailing the competitors these days.

 

[Mjölnir]

I agree that we do not need villains of that caliber. So we have reached a consensus!

Seriously, yes Marvel does not need a Lecter or even a Ledger Joker (though it would be nice). I do think think they can strive for better in this department though, as Marvel Television proves. With that said, you are right, their problems are far less than DCEU or even Fox (though I liked Deadpool plenty this year).

The problem Marvel has is noticeable, but it is far smaller than what is ailing the competitors these days.

Yes, since all villains haven't been as good as Loki they have clearly shown that they can do some better than others. Marvel has consistently been very good at portraying the heroes right, so lets see if they can compliment that with creating more hero/villain duos like Thor and Loki, which together with Xavier/Magneto are my favorite pairings in the sense that they really elevate each other.

Just looking on paper Cate Blanchett as Hela is my most anticipated upcoming villain. She's an amazing actress and the role does seem suitable for her, so it's just down to execution now.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Best Marvel villains were not done by MCU. Magneto and Doc Ock.

 

[kguillou]

Belloq is a pretty memorable villain. But notice that you listed the very colorful Star Wars and Bond.

Darth Vader is hands down one of the great movie villains of all time. Emperor Palpatine is also very memorable. And the Bond movies have had a lot of stinkers for villains, but they also have had some of cinema's best villains of all time too: Goldfinger, Oddjob, Red Grant, Jaws, Ernst Blofeld, 006/Alec Trevelyan, Xenia Onatopp, Silvia. I even have a soft spot for Elliot Carver just because I loved Jonathan Pryce hamming it up in a parody of Rupert Murdoch.

There have been a lot of great villains in those franchises. And the Sam Raimi Spidey movies were just as colorful as Marvel but Dafoe was very good if not for his costume and Molina as Ock were aces. I am not sure that excuse flies for Marvel in the end.

Darth Vader is awesome and a total boss, no doubt. But. For my money. Greatest movie villain of all time is the T-1000. I mean, talk about an unstoppable force of nature. The dude was literally indestructible and he couldn't be reasoned or bargained with. He was a machine with a mission and you better not be in his way. Arnold himself could barely hold his own against him. Whenever he appeared you literally feared for our heroes' lives. To me, there is nothing scarier or more menacing than that. t:

 

[Spider-Aziz]

They dealt with A.I.M and Hydra pretty quick.
Not sure if they tackled the Maggia on TV.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Hydra needed more time. They ended too quickly in Age of Ultron.

 

[Victarion]

The last Marvel villain I could really take seriously was the Mandarin. He suited my tastes, perfectly. Ultron came close - but I would've kept the idea of him being a broken, busted thing preaching something he couldn't practice (plus the Ultron model they had in that cathedral was nice and creepy). A militant hypocrite, if you will.

So it isn't as if they have a problem - its more like they just won't take the majority of their villains all the way; like they kind of stop just short of me being able to take them seriously or wanting to see the heroes end them.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Hydra needed more time. They ended too quickly in Age of Ultron.

If only there was some television program that explored Hydra in more detail so it didn't end as quickly.

 

[NotNickFury]

If only there was some television program that explored Hydra in more detail so it didn't end as quickly.

The thing about SHIELD, though? Next to no one is paying attention to it, and for good reason. Hell, Chloe Bennet going after Marvel for not caring about Agents of SHIELD, it's because I would wager the vast majority don't. Hell, even the writers of Civil War admitted they weren't up to date on SHIELD when asked about the Inhumans.

It's like the ugly stepchild of the MCU that always tries to insert itself into the conversation, while the big kids just pass it by because it's not important. Coulson himself was a bygone remnant of the Phase One days until he got his own TV show. Agents of SHIELD is important to Agents of SHIELD. That's about it. As far as the greater MCU, what's accomplished on the small screen, right now, is next to irrelevant.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

If only there was some television program that explored Hydra in more detail so it didn't end as quickly.

Agents of Shield isn't good.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Marvel has the chance to produce some truly exciting villains in the near future. Hela and Thanos are confirmed. MS can finally explore Spidey's villains. Dr. Strange will open the door for supernatural baddies. All of this should yield many great characters. There will be no excuses if it doesn't.

 

[Victarion]

I'm very hopeful where Mads Mikkey is concerned. He's a great talent that I'm hoping they don't waste.

 

[Web-Head]

I like that they're making Mads character more of an antagonist and not necessarily a full on villain. Could make it a little more interesting.

 

[Victarion]

Me too; I'm kinda hoping the Doc Strange training is given to us via flashbacks. That plus a solid performance from Mads could put this one up there with IM3 on in my marvel rankings.

What kind of villains can I expect from Iron Fist?

 

[Zant]

I'm very hopeful where Mads Mikkey is concerned. He's a great talent that I'm hoping they don't waste.

He dodged a bullet with the Malekith role. I have hope for him in Doc Strange.

 

[Web-Head]

Me too; I'm kinda hoping the Doc Strange training is given to us via flashbacks. That plus a solid performance from Mads could put this one up there with IM3 on in my marvel rankings.

What kind of villains can I expect from Iron Fist?

Davos and Harold Meachum. Meachum is the one who took over Rand Corp after Danny's dad died and Davos is from K'un-Lun.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I'm very hopeful where Mads Mikkey is concerned. He's a great talent that I'm hoping they don't waste.

Unfortunately, Mickey Rourke, Lee Pace, Christopher Eccleston, etc... are all great talents as well. I have hope, but talent alone doesn't mean much when it comes to these villains...

 

[Darth_Spock]

The last Marvel villain I could really take seriously was the Mandarin. He suited my tastes, perfectly. Ultron came close - but I would've kept the idea of him being a broken, busted thing preaching something he couldn't practice (plus the Ultron model they had in that cathedral was nice and creepy). A militant hypocrite, if you will.

So it isn't as if they have a problem - its more like they just won't take the majority of their villains all the way; like they kind of stop just short of me being able to take them seriously or wanting to see the heroes end them.

You don't say...?

Am I wrong in thinking that the "Mandarin" was one of the main reasons this thread was made in the first place?

Even MCU fanatics hated it which caused tension.

 

[Raiden]

He dodged a bullet with the Malekith role. I have hope for him in Doc Strange.

Malekith could have been a memorable villain, especially with the flash back in the beginning that gave us a glimpse of the Asgard/Dark Elves conflict, but they totally dropped the ball rest of the movie. What a missed opportunity.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Nuada from Hellboy II is a similar character done much better. Malekith's personality and mannerisms are just too generic and dull.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Unfortunately, Mickey Rourke, Lee Pace, Christopher Eccleston, etc... are all great talents as well. I have hope, but talent alone doesn't mean much when it comes to these villains...

Yeah it seems the calibre of actor has no bearing on the quality of the villain itself

Malekith could have been a memorable villain, especially with the flash back in the beginning that gave us a glimpse of the Asgard/Dark Elves conflict, but they totally dropped the ball rest of the movie. What a missed opportunity.

Nuada from Hellboy II is a similar character done much better. Malekith's personality and mannerisms are just too generic and dull.

Totally agreed with both, was so looking forward to Malekith but they dropped the ball big time.