Doctor Octopus
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I see. Agreed then. Marvel villains much better than DCEU ones.
Agreed, I am tired of the Ultron argument, especially since you keep ignoring my central point that nothing about him is unique to Whedon's writing.
As for the Joker, I only point that out because we are talking about great villains and, generally, those that are perceived as great villains leave a cultural impact. A problem with Marvel Studios movies and, now, DCEU movies is that they almost uniformly fail to do that. You dismiss my praising the Joker performance by stating you personally did not care for the writing. That is irrelevant, because the point is how the villain is received by pop culture. You may personally think the Joker is overrated, or that the movie is overrated, but that is not the perception of the culture, which is why the Joker is put on a pedestal by critics, fans, and even awards voters... and Marvel villains are not. Pointing that out is not saying you have to agree with me, it is saying, "Why can't Marvel do that?"
... hence the whole point of this thread.
By the way, I totally agree Ultron, or at least his movie, was better received than Apocalypse. But again, tomato, tomato.
Yeah as I said, and you, let's agree to disagree on all of this as we aren't going to change each other's minds![]()
I think the issue is whenever you make your lead heroes as colourful and funny as the MCU has done the villains effectively have to be the 'straight men' in the movies.
It's not unique in that the Indiana Jones franchise is up there with Star Wars and Bond as the one that's endured and contributed to pop culture through the decades and yet none of it's rogue gallery (Belloq etc) rank amongst the all time iconic cinema bad guys.
Mjölnir;34103117 said:I've been agreeing that The Joker is a special villain. The only thing I said was that I don't think he, or any other super villain, matches up with the likes of Lecter, Chigurh, etc. Hardly much criticism. And if we insist on using accomplishments as the bar, Lecter won Best Actor (not supporting) despite having 15 minutes of screen time, against a field of actors/roles that were much stronger than those against Ledger. That would indicate the weight of that performance to someone that puts stock in awards regarding that.
But to go on about the Joker, I can't say that it's a problem to not reach that level. Just as I don't think it's a problem that no super villain reaches Lecter and the rest. A problem is when things are bad and drag the movies down in my view. I'm sure there are people that think that about the MCU, and some might even not think that about the DCEU or Fox, but I don't think that's an issue to that degree, nor does the MCU seem to have issues with producing good movies. There's just room for improvement (although when is there not?).
I agree that we do not need villains of that caliber. So we have reached a consensus!
Seriously, yes Marvel does not need a Lecter or even a Ledger Joker (though it would be nice). I do think think they can strive for better in this department though, as Marvel Television proves. With that said, you are right, their problems are far less than DCEU or even Fox (though I liked Deadpool plenty this year).
The problem Marvel has is noticeable, but it is far smaller than what is ailing the competitors these days.
Belloq is a pretty memorable villain. But notice that you listed the very colorful Star Wars and Bond.
Darth Vader is hands down one of the great movie villains of all time. Emperor Palpatine is also very memorable. And the Bond movies have had a lot of stinkers for villains, but they also have had some of cinema's best villains of all time too: Goldfinger, Oddjob, Red Grant, Jaws, Ernst Blofeld, 006/Alec Trevelyan, Xenia Onatopp, Silvia. I even have a soft spot for Elliot Carver just because I loved Jonathan Pryce hamming it up in a parody of Rupert Murdoch.
There have been a lot of great villains in those franchises. And the Sam Raimi Spidey movies were just as colorful as Marvel but Dafoe was very good if not for his costume and Molina as Ock were aces. I am not sure that excuse flies for Marvel in the end.
Hydra needed more time. They ended too quickly in Age of Ultron.
If only there was some television program that explored Hydra in more detail so it didn't end as quickly.
If only there was some television program that explored Hydra in more detail so it didn't end as quickly.
I'm very hopeful where Mads Mikkey is concerned. He's a great talent that I'm hoping they don't waste.
Me too; I'm kinda hoping the Doc Strange training is given to us via flashbacks. That plus a solid performance from Mads could put this one up there with IM3 on in my marvel rankings.
What kind of villains can I expect from Iron Fist?
I'm very hopeful where Mads Mikkey is concerned. He's a great talent that I'm hoping they don't waste.
The last Marvel villain I could really take seriously was the Mandarin. He suited my tastes, perfectly. Ultron came close - but I would've kept the idea of him being a broken, busted thing preaching something he couldn't practice (plus the Ultron model they had in that cathedral was nice and creepy). A militant hypocrite, if you will.
So it isn't as if they have a problem - its more like they just won't take the majority of their villains all the way; like they kind of stop just short of me being able to take them seriously or wanting to see the heroes end them.
He dodged a bullet with the Malekith role. I have hope for him in Doc Strange.
Unfortunately, Mickey Rourke, Lee Pace, Christopher Eccleston, etc... are all great talents as well. I have hope, but talent alone doesn't mean much when it comes to these villains...![]()
Malekith could have been a memorable villain, especially with the flash back in the beginning that gave us a glimpse of the Asgard/Dark Elves conflict, but they totally dropped the ball rest of the movie. What a missed opportunity.
Nuada from Hellboy II is a similar character done much better. Malekith's personality and mannerisms are just too generic and dull.